1895 Cup Revamp

[Barley Mow]

4 minutes ago, Bulls2487 said:

I imagine we will play Halifax and Keighley.

Possibly.

There will be one 1895 Cup group that has two L1 clubs, the rest will all have two Championship clubs - On the basis that it is made as local as possible my guess is:

Group 1 - Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington

Group 2 - Widnes, Swinton, N Wales

Group 3 - Sheffield, Doncaster, Midlands

Group 4 - Wakefield, Dewsbury, Hunslet

Group 5 - Bradford, Batley, Keighley

Group 6 - Halifax, Oldham, Rochdale

Group 7 - Featherstone, York, Newcastle

[Mathius Hellwege]

12 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I doubt it'll be a surprise to anyone, but Workington's season ticket information confirms that the other two clubs in their 1895 cup group will be Whitehaven and Barrow:

https://www.townrlfc.com/article/788/2024-season-ticket-offers

Cumbria county Cup

[Griff]

45 minutes ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

Cumbria county Cup

Cumbria's no longer a county. It's been abolished.

[The Masked Poster]

8 minutes ago, Griff said:

Cumbria's no longer a county. It's been abolished.

You better tell the geezer who is in charge of the road signs then. As of last week driving back over the border it still says “Welcome to England” then underneath “Cumbria”.

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

You better tell the geezer who is in charge of the road signs then. As of last week driving back over the border it still says “Welcome to England” then underneath “Cumbria”.

Don't worry.

Cumbria still exists. It's a ceremonial county. Only the council no longer exists.

[dkw]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

Cumbria's no longer a county. It's been abolished.

Wrong as usual.

[redjonn]

1 minute ago, dkw said:

Wrong as usual.

the local government reorganisation says:

The six district councils and Cumbria County Council were replaced by two new unitary authorities and a fire and rescue service; Cumberland Council, Westmorland and Furness Council and Cumbria Fire and Rescue Service.

So I am assuming that Cumbria County Council wont/doesn't exist based upon that...

[Barley Mow]

15 minutes ago, redjonn said:

the local government reorganisation says:

The six district councils and Cumbria County Council were replaced by two new unitary authorities and a fire and rescue service; Cumberland Council, Westmorland and Furness Council and Cumbria Fire and Rescue Service.

So I am assuming that Cumbria County Council wont/doesn't exist based upon that...

Correct.

Cumbria County Council and the various district councils were disbanded in April and replaced with the two unitary councils that you mention.

Cumbria does however remain the ceremonial and shrieval county, the area for the police and fire authorities and in use for Government statistics, etc. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Barley Mow

[dkw]

16 minutes ago, redjonn said:

the local government reorganisation says:

The six district councils and Cumbria County Council were replaced by two new unitary authorities and a fire and rescue service; Cumberland Council, Westmorland and Furness Council and Cumbria Fire and Rescue Service.

So I am assuming that Cumbria County Council wont/doesn't exist based upon that...

Yep, just the council. As Barley Mow says Cumbria is still in existence, Griff talking nonsense as usual. Or maybe he knows better than the Police, Fire Service, NHS and many many other services.

[Griff]

48 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Correct.

Cumbria County Council and the various district councils were disbanded in April and replaced with the two unitary councils that you mention.

Cumbria does however remain the ceremonial and shrieval county, the area for the police and fire authorities and in use for Government statistics, etc. 

Lots of police forces cover more than one county.  Thames Valley, Devon and Corfnwall, for instance.

[Griff]

45 minutes ago, dkw said:

Yep, just the council. As Barley Mow says Cumbria is still in existence, Griff talking nonsense as usual. Or maybe he knows better than the Police, Fire Service, NHS and many many other services.

Well, again, I've never heard of Thames Valleyshire, yet it seems to have its own police force.

[Griff]

4 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

You better tell the geezer who is in charge of the road signs then. As of last week driving back over the border it still says “Welcome to England” then underneath “Cumbria”.

The signs were always wrong.  No change there.

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Lots of police forces cover more than one county.  Thames Valley, Devon and Corfnwall, for instance.

Yes, absolutely - West Mercia Police, and Avon & Somerset Police are other examples.

You and I have this same conversation every time somebody mentions Cumbria as a county.

I agree with you that Cumberland, Westmorland, etc were never abolished. They just had their role in local government, ceremonial events, emergency services, etc removed.

Unfortunately when those functions were reassigned, the 1973 Act also called the new areas 'counties'. If they had called them something else (sub-regions for example) then there would have been a lot less confusion.

Nonetheless, the Act created these new counties (whilst not abolishing the existing ones).

The situation today therefore is, for example, in Barrow: The traditional county is Lancashire. The ceremonial county is Cumbria. The council is Westmorland and Furness.

As much as you or I might think it misguided to label Cumbria as a county in 1973, that is what the Act of Parliament did - and the ceremonial county remains unchanged since then.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Griff]

5 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

As much as you or I might think it misguided to label Cumbria as a county in 1973, that is what the Act of Parliament did - and the ceremonial county remains unchanged since then.

Ceremonial county ?

That's just about which fella in a military style uniform and a hat with a big feather meets the King when he calls.

[Barley Mow]

5 hours ago, Griff said:

Ceremonial county ?

That's just about which fella in a military style uniform and a hat with a big feather meets the King when he calls.

No feathers I'm afraid, but essentially - yes.

The ceremonial counties are the areas covered by Lords Lieutenant: The Monarch's representative in/link to different areas of the country.

As important or unimportant as that is, the role and the ceremonial counties do exist. The one covering Cumberland, Westmorland and the far north-west of Yorkshire and Lancashire is... ...Cumbria.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Barley Mow

[gingerjon]

16 minutes ago, Griff said:

Ceremonial county ?

That's just about which fella in a military style uniform and a hat with a big feather meets the King when he calls.

No counties are actually real. They're all just pretend.

HTH.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

No counties are actually real. They're all just pretend.

HTH.

Its an odd hill to die on, though that has been a recent theme.

[The Masked Poster]

40 minutes ago, Griff said:

The signs were always wrong.  No change there.

Which bit? England or Cumbria? 

I know England definitely exists. 

[Barley Mow]

Perhaps we should steer this back towards the 1895 cup before the thread gets locked.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

7 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Possibly.

There will be one 1895 Cup group that has two L1 clubs, the rest will all have two Championship clubs - On the basis that it is made as local as possible my guess is:

Group 1 - Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington

Group 2 - Widnes, Swinton, N Wales

Group 3 - Sheffield, Doncaster, Midlands

Group 4 - Wakefield, Dewsbury, Hunslet

Group 5 - Bradford, Batley, Keighley

Group 6 - Halifax, Oldham, Rochdale

Group 7 - Featherstone, York, Newcastle

Groups are supposedly going to be both regionalised AND seeded so some interesting groupings there.

[Barley Mow]

10 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Groups are supposedly going to be both regionalised AND seeded so some interesting groupings there.

I took the seeding to be the split between Championship and L1 club.

I could be wrong, but the confirmed Barrow-Haven-Workington group suggests I could be thinking along the right lines - Barrow and Whitehaven were both in the bottom four in the Championship last year - so 'regionalisation' has won out over 'seeding' amongst Championship clubs on that one.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Tommygilf]

54 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I took the seeding to be the split between Championship and L1 club.

I could be wrong, but the confirmed Barrow-Haven-Workington group suggests I could be thinking along the right lines - Barrow and Whitehaven were both in the bottom four in the Championship last year - so 'regionalisation' has won out over 'seeding' amongst Championship clubs on that one.

That is how I read it too. 

[Rene_Artois]

8 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Possibly.

There will be one 1895 Cup group that has two L1 clubs, the rest will all have two Championship clubs - On the basis that it is made as local as possible my guess is:

Group 1 - Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington

Group 2 - Widnes, Swinton, N Wales

Group 3 - Sheffield, Doncaster, Midlands

Group 4 - Wakefield, Dewsbury, Hunslet

Group 5 - Bradford, Batley, Keighley

Group 6 - Halifax, Oldham, Rochdale

Group 7 - Featherstone, York, Newcastle

Group 3. The southern group

[Barley Mow]

34 minutes ago, Rene_Artois said:

Group 3. The southern group

Whichever Yorkshire/Lancashire clubs are in groups with North Wales, Midlands & Newcastle will obviously have a longer journey for those matches.

They have however already seemingly twisted Cornwall's arms into withdrawing, so the longest trip is knocked on the head completely.

Widnes & Swinton in the west, Doncaster & Sheffield in the east and York (plus 1) in the north seem like the Championship clubs most likely to be grouped with N Wales, Midlands and Newcastle from a geographical point of view. Unless they put NW and Midlands in the same group with either Widnes or Swinton and have that single group doing all of the longest journeys.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Barley Mow

[JonM]

10 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Whichever Yorkshire/Lancashire clubs are in groups with North Wales, Midlands & Newcastle will obviously have a longer journey for those matches.

They have however already seemingly twisted Cornwall's arms into withdrawing, so the longest trip is knocked on the head completely.

Widnes & Swinton in the west, Doncaster & Sheffield in the east and York (plus 1) in the north seem like the most likely candidates to be grouped with N Wales, Midlands and Newcastle from a geographical point of view. Unless they put NW and Midlands in the same group with either Widnes or Swinton and have that single group doing all of the longest journeys.

If Widnes end up travelling to Colwyn Bay or Wrexham, it would be quicker by road than 12 out of 13 away trips in the Championship. Even the Alexander Stadium is closer than Cumbria or some of the Yorkshire clubs.