War of the Roses (Again)

[Archie Gordon]

8 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think the thing we all seem to agree on is that RL in the UK needs some kind of event. 
The NRL has Origin, RU has the 6 Nations, Cricket has lots of Internationals plus events like the 100.

 The RFL just need to organise something and put the time, effort and money into making it a success. I’m sure if there was a WOTR or a regional tiered competition, a series against France or a 3/4 N including England then if it is marketed well and bought into by the players and clubs then it could be built into something big

This is the crux of it. SL, and the SL Cup, become a chore after a while; what should our mid-season event be, because we really do need one.

[gingerjon]

9 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think the thing we all seem to agree on is that RL in the UK needs some kind of event. 
The NRL has Origin, RU has the 6 Nations, Cricket has lots of Internationals plus events like the 100.

 The RFL just need to organise something and put the time, effort and money into making it a success. I’m sure if there was a WOTR or a regional tiered competition, a series against France or a 3/4 N including England then if it is marketed well and bought into by the players and clubs then it could be built into something big

With one major point of learning: do not play this mid season showcase where the game is already saturated.

That's not fishing where the fishes are. That's overkill.

[Dave T]

7 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Their brand (like all first class county cricket teams) is the traditional country they represent.

If roses matches were to work, we would need to build the brand (the competition and the teams).

In terms of the teams, I'm happy to accept it looks an easier task for Yorks than Lancs.

Anyway, my point was simply that the stadiums mentioned are in Lancashire as generally understood in a sporting context. Although Wilderspool, being on the other side of the Mersey wasn't.

I disagree that Lancs Cricket brand is based really around the county. They are a strong club that has been around for 150 years and have built themselves up over that time. I don't think anyone would start up a club with that name now.

The Lancs point isn't a showstopper, but genuinely think about it - it's weird. This is something that has the challenge of being outdated and the proposal is to use a county name that doesn't include Wire, Saints, Widnes, Wigan, Leigh, Salford etc - pretty much all the places you would play the games, get players from and expect support from. As an idea on paper it's a bit bizarre. 

If this was a brand new idea, what would the pitch be for it? It would be really odd. I'm a 45 year old bloke and have never had Lancs in my address, but am absolutely the target market for this rep side. 

[JM2010]

Would it work better if they were split into West Yorkshire, East Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside/Cheshire, Cumbria, London/SE, N Wales, S Wales?Split into 2 tiers

[RP London]

12 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Like I say, for me it just doesn't feel like an England game if it's not the best available players. It never will be unless it's played Down Under. 

Can we compromise with an annual mid-season England international Down Under on the same weekend as Yorkshire v Lancashire, France v Wales and Ireland v Scotland? (Throw in England Knights v Jamaica for those not eligible for Yorks/Lancs).

You're not going to get a full England side mid season, if you travel down under teams will pull players out. If they go down under you also don't get the chance to build this "thing" here that people are wanting to build. I think we just have to accept that we are playing without all our players unless there is an agreed worldwide international break (which i would advocate for strongly), but then again that's always the case at any time of year due to injuries. 

If you did have a mid season international either in the north or down under, to then play Yorks v Lancs AND England Knights would be utter madness.. one way to not give Yorks v Lancs a chance is to say "oh and its 2nd/3rd string as all the best are down under with England". 

There is no perfect cure to any of the issues that we've highlighted, all we can do is the best that we can.. we will have a weaker side (without an international break that is adhered to across both hemispheres). But that actually gives us an opportunity too. Have it as Super League only players England v the rest (or WOR or something) and build the rivalry, that's what we are looking for.. this idea of "what makes England" is irrelevant, what we need to do is build a spectacle that people want to see.. If people simply wanted it on alphabetical grounds then play that and work with it.  what we cannot find is what that "thing" actually is that gives a rivalry, and thats what makes SOO so unique in sport as a whole..

[sam4731]

I don't really think that identifying with a particular county is an issue here. 

I wonder how many people that watched the boat race this year went to Oxbridge. How many people that watched the Ryder Cup identify with Europe? How many people identify with a driver in F1? People like a rivalry.

As for people mentioning the cricket. Maybe a double header with the t20 Blast roses game at Headingley could be a good place to start.

Edited April 23 by sam4731

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

How many in Lancashire? 

Well exactly.

People do understand Lancashire, mainly through the cricket. Indeed Lancashire have even found themselves playing in Yorkshire (Sedburgh) as well as their usual outground in Merseyside (Southport).

As I said earlier if there were strong independent Yorkshire and Lancashire RL organisations this would have more of a chance of success. There isn't that though

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Would it work better if they were split into West Yorkshire, East Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside/Cheshire, Cumbria, London/SE, N Wales, S Wales?Split into 2 tiers

To what purpose? If the argument for Lancashire v Yorkshire is a higher tier of competition then something like this certainly isn't that. It would be mediocre, Championship level stuff at best and all rather pointless. 

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I disagree that Lancs Cricket brand is based really around the county. They are a strong club that has been around for 150 years and have built themselves up over that time. I don't think anyone would start up a club with that name now.

The Lancs point isn't a showstopper, but genuinely think about it - it's weird. This is something that has the challenge of being outdated and the proposal is to use a county name that doesn't include Wire, Saints, Widnes, Wigan, Leigh, Salford etc - pretty much all the places you would play the games, get players from and expect support from. As an idea on paper it's a bit bizarre. 

If this was a brand new idea, what would the pitch be for it? It would be really odd. I'm a 45 year old bloke and have never had Lancs in my address, but am absolutely the target market for this rep side. 

Do you like red rose or white rose?

That is literally it

[Archie Gordon]

11 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Would it work better if they were split into West Yorkshire, East Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside/Cheshire, Cumbria, London/SE, N Wales, S Wales?Split into 2 tiers

I would prefer to have rep teams at the top of a pyramid that allows men, women, academy, u14s, girls, boys, wheelchair, etc., to identify with a region/nation. I think you have sliced the regions up too thinly in the above.

I think the community game regions would work: Cumbria, NW, Yorkshire, London/SE, (South) Wales to start with. Get some buy in from u7s upwards.

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Well exactly.

People do understand Lancashire, mainly through the cricket. Indeed Lancashire have even found themselves playing in Yorkshire (Sedburgh) as well as their usual outground in Merseyside (Southport).

As I said earlier if there were strong independent Yorkshire and Lancashire RL organisations this would have more of a chance of success. There isn't that though

People understand Lancs, and for some it just translates into North West, but as we've seen with the Hundred, Lancs name ain't the reason they are successful, they are simply the Premier cricket club in the North West and have been for a century and a half. But call them Manchester Originals and they are the same. 

Lancs RL doesn't have any of this brand identity or recognition, and can't just tap into those people who identify with the county. As I say, I've lived only in Cheshire and Merseyside when living in England in my 45 years. And surely we should be aiming to attract younger people than me. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

People understand Lancs, and for some it just translates into North West, but as we've seen with the Hundred, Lancs name ain't the reason they are successful, they are simply the Premier cricket club in the North West and have been for a century and a half. But call them Manchester Originals and they are the same. 

Lancs RL doesn't have any of this brand identity or recognition, and can't just tap into those people who identify with the county. As I say, I've lived only in Cheshire and Merseyside when living in England in my 45 years. And surely we should be aiming to attract younger people than me. 

Like I said in my later post mate, red rose good? White rose bad?

If any part of the above rings true then that is the basis of it. Its weak yes, and I don't think its good enough to justify it. However that is it.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Like I said in my later post mate, red rose good? White rose bad?

If any part of the above rings true then that is the basis of it. Its weak yes, and I don't think its good enough to justify it. However that is it.

The roses mean nowt to me and I expect anyone younger to me. 

Aren't you a Leeds football fan as well mate? Maybe the rose is more prominent there? 

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I think the community game regions would work: Cumbria, NW, Yorkshire, London/SE, (South) Wales to start with. Get some buy in from u7s upwards.

I think at underage level this stuff works fine generally as it is, certainly from a Lancashire and Yorkshire perspective. It gives young players a representative game at a higher level of competition and considerations like crowds and selling the game to the wider public do not matter.

That does not mean it works at professional level or serves any purpose.

[Damien]

I think the Cricket comparisons are really poor. If I'm a Cricket fan in Wigan of course I'll follow Lancashire as its the cricket team that represents me and is the professional tier of competition. If I want to watch Cricket at the best domestic level it's Lancashire. 

In RL its far from the same. The equivalent of Lancashire for me is Wigan, we are not a profesional game based on counties or provinces. It's a club game. A Lancashire v Yorkshire game is just another match that is a worse standard than Wigan v various SL teams and will be far worse than dozens of SL games. Sure I'll watch it on TV, as I will pretty much watch any RL, but there is absolutely nothing about that game that would make me bothered about watching it live.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think the Cricket comparisons are really poor. If I'm a Cricket fan in Wigan of course I'll follow Lancashire as its the cricket team that represents me and is the professional tier of competition. If I want to watch Cricket at the best domestic level it's Lancashire. 

In RL its far from the same. The equivalent of Lancashire for me is Wigan, we are not a profesional game based on counties or provinces. It's a club game. A Lancashire v Yorkshire game is just another match that is a worse standard than Wigan v various SL teams and will be far worse than dozens of SL games. Sure I'll watch it on TV, as I will pretty much watch any RL, but there is absolutely nothing about that game that would make me bothered about watching it live.

Indeed. If you are an RL fan from Wigan, Wire, Saints, Widnes, Leigh etc you are well served by your local club. For rep RL you have England. I see little hook to get behind Lancashire, a county North of all of these towns. 

[Archie Gordon]

I'm now firmly behind a WotR series coming back, just to pee off all these Lancastrians who dare not speak their name.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

11 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think the thing we all seem to agree on is that RL in the UK needs some kind of event. 
The NRL has Origin, RU has the 6 Nations, Cricket has lots of Internationals plus events like the 100.

 The RFL just need to organise something and put the time, effort and money into making it a success. I’m sure if there was a WOTR or a regional tiered competition, a series against France or a 3/4 N including England then if it is marketed well and bought into by the players and clubs then it could be built into something big

Isn't our event the Challenge Cup? 

The union equivalent (Thier Prem cup) is more or less a second team event now (well until the final.....and even then the Worcester win over Irish that I went to was not a sell.out at Brentford) 

I'm all for having Roses / rep game as an addition though 

[Dave T]

The point about craving more events is an interesting one, and one I do have some sympathy for - but it is telling that IMG want to get rid of Magic Weekend, which is by far the most successful 'event' that we have created to fill this kind of gap. This probably goes back to @gingerjon's point about just serving the same people, and Magic is very much a members on tour kind of event, even when played in new cities. 

Over the years (since the advent of SL) we've seen:

- Expanded World Club

- One-off World Club game

- Magic Weekend

- SL 9's

- Summer Bash

- Championship 9's

- Roses 

- Exiles

- England home matches

- England in Oz/USA

- Challenge Cup Semi Double Header

[JonM]

5 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Looks like they'll just have to be called North West RL and include Cumbria...

(I'm being facetious obviously)

If you meet someone from Lancashire or Cheshire (current versions as opposed to traditional versions) down south they are considerably more likely to say they're from the North West than to say Lancashire. And the rest will say Manchester or Liverpool. 

Outside of a few pockets that like to build their self-identity on contrast with more successful neighbours (Cornwall, Norfolk, Yorkshire) most people stopped identifying with counties decades ago.

[17 stone giant]

After reading all the posts, I've reached the conclusion that none of the rep ideas will work. It therefore has to be done through the clubs. That's where the strong allegiances are.

I like the idea of Magic, but I would tinker with it. I'd try splitting it with Saturday in one city and Sunday in another. Or two successive Saturdays, perhaps.

At the moment I don't think it's being taken around the country enough, and I think a lot of cities wouldn't be able to do the two days, hence my suggestion for splitting it.

Let's have a day in Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol, etc.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

I disagree that Lancs Cricket brand is based really around the county. They are a strong club that has been around for 150 years and have built themselves up over that time. I don't think anyone would start up a club with that name now.

The Lancs point isn't a showstopper, but genuinely think about it - it's weird. This is something that has the challenge of being outdated and the proposal is to use a county name that doesn't include Wire, Saints, Widnes, Wigan, Leigh, Salford etc - pretty much all the places you would play the games, get players from and expect support from. As an idea on paper it's a bit bizarre. 

If this was a brand new idea, what would the pitch be for it? It would be really odd. I'm a 45 year old bloke and have never had Lancs in my address, but am absolutely the target market for this rep side. 

East Vs West?

[Hopie]

Can't believe it took so long for the "Erm, actually Lancashire doesn't exist" type arguments to kick in. If you follow the logic that says (for example) Wigan isn't in Lancashire,  then York isn't in Yorkshire, neither is true.

Players didn't need to be from either traditional county to play in the most recent edition either, before that argument starts up.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Hopie said:

Can't believe it took so long for the "Erm, actually Lancashire doesn't exist" type arguments to kick in. 

Post five on page one.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Hopie said:

Can't believe it took so long for the "Erm, actually Lancashire doesn't exist" type arguments to kick in. If you follow the logic that says (for example) Wigan isn't in Lancashire,  then York isn't in Yorkshire, neither is true.

Players didn't need to be from either traditional county to play in the most recent edition either, before that argument starts up.

The point isn't really about LA boundaries or geeky discussions like that - it's more a point that maybe a reason why this doesn't grip people, is that it doesn't really mean much to people. 

If we had never ever had Lancs v Yorks, if you think about the proposal, it is bizarre. If your objective was to create an event, create training camps for players to step up into rep squads, and to try and create commercial value, I don;t think anyone in the world would come up with Lancs v Yorks - because quite frankly, it's weird to use Lancashire as any kind of rep team here. 

People raising the fact that the NW RL teams are not in Lancashire and haven't been for 50 years isn't some pedantic silly argument - it's quite a key reason as to why there just isn't any real kind of hook in for fans this side of the Pennines imo.