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Lewis Dodd to Souths


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10 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Not too familiar with Hawkins, but Ilias looks like he's a player who might really flourish in a better-disciplined environment.

Anasta his agent said its a relief , he needs out from Souths as he hasnt developed as he should .

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Not really.

Clearly and Luai. 

Reynolds and Mam.

Smith and French.

Hughes and Munster.

And yes, Dodd and Lomax.

These combinations are far more like the traditional 6 and 7 roles than your description indicates.  One is a game manager and the other a more attacking / running threat.

Do they split left and right sometimes in attack, of course.  Are they interchangeable in their roles and skill set.  No.

They have different skill sets for sure. But calling them 6 and 7 makes no sense. If play is centre-ish, there'll be one left and one right, and if play is to one flank, one would be more first than out the back receiver. But squeezing these roles into the old 6&7 standoff& scrum half moulds doesn't work.

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1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

This is not actually true the roles may have changed but these positions tend to have very specific roles still. Take Wigan as an example French at 6 and smith at 7 are very different players and also close to the traditional 6 and 7. 

Of course they can be different/complementary. They usually are But the "traditional 6 and 7" analogy makes no sense to me.

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3 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

They have different skill sets for sure. But calling them 6 and 7 makes no sense. If play is centre-ish, there'll be one left and one right, and if play is to one flank, one would be more first than out the back receiver. But squeezing these roles into the old 6&7 standoff& scrum half moulds doesn't work.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that as these pairs look exactly like the old half back pairs to me.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Well, we'll have to disagree on that as these pairs look exactly like the old half back pairs to me.

Ok. Except the attacking and defensive lines look different to how they used to look, there used to be far more scrums and individual roles were far more regimented than they are now. Fullbacks chiming in as halfbacks, wingers and fullbacks being interchangeable, players swopping between hooker and halfback, etc, etc. 

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1 minute ago, marklaspalmas said:

Ok. Except the attacking and defensive lines look different to how they used to look, there used to be far more scrums and individual roles were far more regimented than they are now. Fullbacks chiming in as halfbacks, wingers and fullbacks being interchangeable, players swopping between hooker and halfback, etc, etc. 

I'm not talking about the other positions.  I am simply saying that modern half back pairs (and in the top teams in each league) are far more similar to the old 6 and 7 roles than you described. 

Are you really saying that when you watch Reynolds and Mam play for the Broncos (as an example), you don't see the same style of play and scrum half / stand off roles from previous decades.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I'm not talking about the other positions.  I am simply saying that modern half back pairs (and in the top teams in each league) are far more similar to the old 6 and 7 roles than you described. 

Are you really saying that when you watch Reynolds and Mam play for the Broncos (as an example), you don't see the same style of play and scrum half / stand off roles from previous decades.

Yeah, why not? And loads of other examples where that's not the case. And? They're both halfbacks. You don't need stereotypical old style stand off plus scrum half these days.  And your best halfback might be a fullback anyway. Walsh.

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Just now, marklaspalmas said:

Yeah, why not? And loads of other examples where that's not the case. And? They're both halfbacks. You don't need stereotypical old style stand off plus scrum half these days.  And your best halfback might be a fullback anyway. Walsh.

OK, I don't think we are getting anywhere here. Let's leave it.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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42 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

Yes.

Apologies to anyone who feels I have derailed the Dodd thread.

I do feel part of my bugbear is out of date nomenclature preventing coherent debate and analysis of players.

There is a post I wrote here 5 years ago talking about the naming of the half backs as left and right pivot.

I just think we are in an era now where coaches are starting to see the value of more traditional half back pairings / strengths. The game is constantly evolving.

 

 

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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9 hours ago, Dunbar said:

There is a post I wrote here 5 years ago talking about the naming of the half backs as left and right pivot.

I just think we are in an era now where coaches are starting to see the value of more traditional half back pairings / strengths. The game is constantly evolving.

 

 

Welcome back. I thought you'd asked me to leave it. 

Yes, the game does evolve, although I don't see how a move to left and right halfbacks would now be invalid if they have different styles.

Even the way team line ups are traditionally listed is not be helpful to casual viewers' understanding of the game.

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10 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

Welcome back. I thought you'd asked me to leave it. 

Yes, the game does evolve, although I don't see how a move to left and right halfbacks would now be invalid if they have different styles.

Even the way team line ups are traditionally listed is not be helpful to casual viewers' understanding of the game.

Yes, I thought we were going to agree to disagree. I just felt your last line was a bit of a dig to be honest.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Just now, Dunbar said:

Yes, I thought we were going to agree to disagree. I just felt your last line was a bit of a dig to be honest.

I'm not sure how you took it that way, but it certainly wasn't. 

I don't post on here as much as I used to, but my digs tend to be blunter, but hopefully never personal.

I feel that in many threads on TRL the level of analysis of all aspects of our sport far outstrips what can be read in UK media outlets in general. 

I guess that's why I'm still here 25 years later.

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19 hours ago, Damien said:

What was the logic behind this? I can't see why it should be any different than what we have seen for some years.

By coincidence even today I read an article where Andrew Johns was quoted as saying that in the modern game he doesn`t expect halfbacks to fully develop until their late twenties and not dominate until their thirties, once again no explanation though. It also said he believed Cleary was the exception and don`t expect to see many more like him.

The subject particularly interests me because maybe it does perhaps offer an explanation for the dearth of consistently quality performing young halfbacks in the game, which is odd because given all the money spent on player development these days we don`t seem to be having any such problem with any other position.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Dunbar said:

There is a post I wrote here 5 years ago talking about the naming of the half backs as left and right pivot.

I just think we are in an era now where coaches are starting to see the value of more traditional half back pairings / strengths. The game is constantly evolving.

 

 

I was never in favour of your first paragraph because of your second.

I guess where I do disagree is that for me the traditional half back pairing never went away. Almost all, if not all teams, still had a pairing consisting of someone playing more of a traditional scrum half and stand off role, whether they played left and right or not.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Damien said:

I was never in favour of your first paragraph because of your second.

I guess where I do disagree is that for me the traditional half back pairing never went away. Almost all, if not all teams, still had a pairing consisting of someone playing more of a traditional scrum half and stand off role, whether they played left and right or not.

I suppose there are two factors in play - one is what the coach wants to do and two, the personnel he has at his disposal.

There was certainly a trend where teams wanted to have halves play almost the same game - and split in attack.  What Ricky Stuart was doing with George Williams and Jack Wighton for the Raiders was players playing an almost identical game split left and right.  Whereas now he has a much more traditional pair in Jamal Fogerty and Ethan Strange.

But again, did Stuart do that because that is how he wanted the Raiders to play or because he saw that neither Williams or Wighton were traditional game management half backs and so he wanted to share the responsibility.

With all these things, the devil is in the detail but my general point is that when you see half backs like Reynolds, Hynes, Cherry-Evans and Cleary playing a very traditional scrum half role both sides of the ruck (and 4 of the top 5 sides) the idea that halves split left and right is nowhere near as prevalent as it was maybe even a few years ago.

Edited by Dunbar
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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Is Adam Doueihi an option for saints. Currently injured until round 17 but off contract at the end of the year and could forced out of the Tigers with the arrival of Luai. Would be a quality singing.

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5 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

Is Adam Doueihi an option for saints. Currently injured until round 17 but off contract at the end of the year and could forced out of the Tigers with the arrival of Luai. Would be a quality singing.

He would be but probably more as a replacement for Lomax than Dodd. I suppose it would work if the idea is to move Lomax to scrum half but not sure that’s a good idea personally. 

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On 29/04/2024 at 23:25, Damien said:

He does seems to have got an awful lot of flak the last few months. I wonder if that has played any part on his decision to leave.

It could have Damien, some of it is shocking at games just totally unwarranted. 

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The reaction on Aussie media is interesting , with a fair bit of bemusement and who is it , why would they sign him and basically is he good enough as we don’t really know anything about him . Interesting how it goes it’s a big task , hopefully he nails it but they need a lot more around him 

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27 minutes ago, DavidM said:

The reaction on Aussie media is interesting , with a fair bit of bemusement and who is it , why would they sign him and basically is he good enough as we don’t really know anything about him . Interesting how it goes it’s a big task , hopefully he nails it but they need a lot more around him 

Personally I’ve a lot of positive comments about him. A lot of NRL fans praising the signing and mentioning his field goal against Penrith.

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On 03/05/2024 at 11:22, DavidM said:

The reaction on Aussie media is interesting , with a fair bit of bemusement and who is it , why would they sign him and basically is he good enough as we don’t really know anything about him . Interesting how it goes it’s a big task , hopefully he nails it but they need a lot more around him 

Any aussies media buffoon claiming "who is he" after how he played against Penrith has zero credibility.

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