Best super league season ever?

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

21 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Add up the total crowds in Kent way ahead of anyone else:)

P

Out of interest, Paul, and admittedly to go off-thread, doesn't Durham (the historical county) run Kent close and maybe even surpass it?

[Click]

22 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

There was a second paragraph to my question Worzel and yes David Hughes is one of those blokes.

Realistically, though is London Broncos just a geographical victim of circumstance of where the club is? Is the sport wanted by people in enough numbers away from the stalwarts to ever make the club a viable proposition in such a football oriented location.

I always love it when you come back to the thought process of "At the end of the day, RL is only for people in the North, no one else could possibly enjoy it"

And for the record Hughes hasn't been one of those "blokes" in quite a few years. People suggesting Hughes would have spent much more money if IMG wasn't a thing haven't been watching London for the last 4 years. We went from being a Full Time team to a Part Time team so he could stop spending so much money ffs.

[Tre Cool]

London could definitely succeed, there's more than enough RL fans. 12 million people within 50km of London.  But it needs a lot of money, I mean serious investment and an actual long term vision and stadium deal.  Like Melbourne.

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Out of interest, Paul, and admittedly to go off-thread, doesn't Durham (the historical county) run Kent close and maybe even surpass it?

Thats always a mute point second i would say (They never take promotion  

Kent historically was home to the majority of the southern league clubs at one point 

 

Ashford Town

Bexleyheath and Welling 

Canterbury City

Deal Town 

Folkestone Town 

Gravesend and Northfleet Athletic (Now Ebbsfleet United)

Margate 

Ramsgate

Sittingbourne

Tonbridge

Tunbridge Wells Rangers 

 

Add Kent/Isthmian/Athenian/Aetolian/Metroplitan in the sixties

Cray Wanderers

Crockenhill

Beckenham

Bromley

Faversham Town 

Herne Bay

Maidstone United 

Sheppey United 

Whitstable Town 

 

The southern league was home too many football league clubs up until the 1920,s including Tottenham Hotspur Millwall etc 

 

I remember seeing Jim Brown (Ex Scotland goalkeeper) play for Canterbury City v Beckenham in a Kent Senior Cup tie around 1965,many scottish players played for teams in East Kent as they also worked in the Kentish mines.

 

Some of the non league crowds this year in Kent have been amazing 3 teams also went though to the early rounds of the FA Cup Cray Valley PM Ramsgate and Sheppey United.

Paul 

 

[Just Browny]

16 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Arent the teams at the bottom always poor? Which was the last good team to finish in the bottom 2 or 3?

I'm sure you thought you were making a good/hilarious point here, but 2019 would be a good example of a year where all teams were competitive and the teams at the bottom picked up wins all through the season.

[Harry Stottle]

22 hours ago, Click said:

I always love it when you come back to the thought process of "At the end of the day, RL is only for people in the North, no one else could possibly enjoy it"

You have got that totally the wrong way round,

Yes people can enjoy RL, but in the UK there are only people in the North adjacent to the big road that can be bothered to attend in enough numbers that make the sport viable, tell me where else it is popular in the UK certainly not in London as the attendances testify, which was my question.

[Click]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You have got that totally the wrong way round,

Yes people can enjoy RL, but in the UK there are only people in the North adjacent to the big road that can be bothered to attend in enough numbers that make the sport viable, tell me where else it is popular in the UK certainly not in London as the attendances testify, which was my question.

You have said it multiple times over the last few months,

You do not think anyone outside the North supports RL, or could support RL.

You say not in London, but London is where RL gets it's best attendances.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Click said:

You have said it multiple times over the last few months,

You do not think anyone outside the North supports RL, or could support RL.

You say not in London, but London is where RL gets it's best attendances.

Yes, I have said it and I believe it to be true having spent 35 years travelling the length and breadth of these fair isles in my buisness life. It was a personal crusade bringing up and bigging the sport at every opportunity, not a lot of people even realise there are two forms of rugby or are evenly remotely interested especially where they have pro football clubs. There are very few converted to the sport, has is testified by all the start up clubs that have come and gone over the last 100 years, it is a birthright thing you are brought up with it.

Off course people outside the North can appreciate and some even as you say 'support' it but the numbers are simply not there Click.

Lastly, do you mean the best attendances are for showpiece internationals and cup finals? What about week to week club games when only a few travel down to the capital, what does that tell you?

[Click]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Yes, I have said it and I believe it to be true having spent 35 years travelling the length and breadth of these fair isles in my buisness life. It was a personal crusade bringing up and bigging the sport at every opportunity, not a lot of people even realise there are two forms of rugby or are evenly remotely interested especially where they have pro football clubs. There are very few converted to the sport, has is testified by all the start up clubs that have come and gone over the last 100 years, it is a birthright thing you are brought up with it.

Off course people outside the North can appreciate and some even as you say 'support' it but the numbers are simply not there Click.

Lastly, do you mean the best attendances are for showpiece internationals and cup finals? What about week to week club games when only a few travel down to the capital, what does that tell you?

Perhaps your issue is that you just aren't a very good salesman for RL Harry, rather than the sport itself.

As someone who was born and raised in London with zero connection to the North, I find it funny when Northerners say that people outside the North just don't "get" RL. My dad certainly took a liking to it when he first watched it as a Londoner. 

Yes, the best attendances are for internationals, cup finals, in London. What does week to week club attendances tell me for London Broncos and the relation to interest in RL in London? Absolutely nothing. We are an awful club who has moved home 10 times in the last 15 years and probably have to go back to 1997 and 1999 to get to a "winning" season. 

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, Click said:

Perhaps your issue is that you just aren't a very good salesman for RL Harry, rather than the sport itself.

As someone who was born and raised in London with zero connection to the North, I find it funny when Northerners say that people outside the North just don't "get" RL. My dad certainly took a liking to it when he first watched it as a Londoner. 

Yes, the best attendances are for internationals, cup finals, in London. What does week to week club attendances tell me for London Broncos and the relation to interest in RL in London? Absolutely nothing. We are an awful club who has moved home 10 times in the last 15 years and probably have to go back to 1997 and 1999 to get to a "winning" season. 

Good on you and your dad Click, quite simply if there was many more with your mind frame we would not be having this conversation now.

Don't get me wrong Click, I would love our game to be popular all over the country but being a realist I know it won't.

Just as an aside, I live some 10 miles outside of Manchester 20few from Liverpool, 8 from Bolton who as we know have big football clubs, I have attended one game and that was back in 1968, I just don't know what it is that makes that game so attractive to so many, perhaps it is like I say that was not my birthright, RL was entrenched in my family.

[Click]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Good on you and your dad Click, quite simply if there was many more with your mind frame we would not be having this conversation now.

Don't get me wrong Click, I would love our game to be popular all over the country but being a realist I know it won't.

Just as an aside, I live some 10 miles outside of Manchester 20few from Liverpool, 8 from Bolton who as we know have big football clubs, I have attended one game and that was back in 1968, I just don't know what it is that makes that game so attractive to so many, perhaps it is like I say that was not my birthright, RL was entrenched in my family.

Sports are sports, and your viewpoint is that you might as well not bother reaching and expanding RL's fanbase, as if you weren't born into it, then you just won't get it.

Myself and my Dad are not a minority in London. There are lots of people in London that watch RL when finals or internationals are on, I mentioned at the time of the RLWC Semi at the Emirates that there was a lot of England RU shirts being worn around the ground, I doubt they came from the North. SL figures on TV have always shown a high viewership in the South of the UK. 

People in London aren't interested in seeing a rubbish team that gets beat by 50 + points every week. If you actually had a London team that was competitive, exciting to watch and had a chance to win some things then you would see a much bigger attendance for normal club games.

[Anita Bath]

7 minutes ago, Click said:

Sports are sports, and your viewpoint is that you might as well not bother reaching and expanding RL's fanbase, as if you weren't born into it, then you just won't get it.

Myself and my Dad are not a minority in London. There are lots of people in London that watch RL when finals or internationals are on, I mentioned at the time of the RLWC Semi at the Emirates that there was a lot of England RU shirts being worn around the ground, I doubt they came from the North. SL figures on TV have always shown a high viewership in the South of the UK. 

People in London aren't interested in seeing a rubbish team that gets beat by 50 + points every week. If you actually had a London team that was competitive, exciting to watch and had a chance to win some things then you would see a much bigger attendance for normal club games.

Didnt they win something last season…..play offs and promotion. Was there much bigger attendance?

[Click]

52 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

Didnt they win something last season…..play offs and promotion. Was there much bigger attendance?

Winning the Championship interests almost zero people. 

I've said on here before, but London RL only works with a Super League team playing the likes of Wigan, Leeds, etc. 

Playing Whitehaven and Rochdale doesn't attract anybody.

We also won all of those play off games and promotion with away wins, so couldn't really affect much last year.

[Anita Bath]

I think if you had a team that was exciting to watch competitive and had a chance to win something Gloucester All Golds, Oxford, Hemel, Mansfield, Nottingham, Blackpool, etc etc would have got bigger attendances.

A successful club cannot be built on the expectation of winning all the time. 

As we say in Rochdale, you lose some, you draw some

 

[Click]

13 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

I think if you had a team that was exciting to watch competitive and had a chance to win something Gloucester All Golds, Oxford, Hemel, Mansfield, Nottingham, Blackpool, etc etc would have got bigger attendances.

A successful club cannot be built on the expectation of winning all the time. 

As we say in Rochdale, you lose some, you draw some

 

Well, that was kind of my point about having a team that was exciting to watch and was competitive, all the clubs you mentioned as far as I am aware didn't get ot that level.  

I think winning more than you lose is something that is a necessity for a club that wants to be deemed as successful by almost any measure.

London may have won the playoffs and got promotion last year - but early in the year they weren't playing well and no one expected what happened. 

Even with winning promotion last year, I don't think we have had a truly competitive and exciting side for many years.

[Cheadle Leyther]

On 29/04/2024 at 12:03, Worzel said:

Yes, it worked for Leigh. No question. But how? I'd imagine Degsy tipped in over £1m in the Championship and over £1m in their first season back up, maybe more, order to make that happen. Know many more of those blokes we can ask for money? It's just not a sustainable way to build an elite sporting competition. 

It’s worked for us. Leigh’s average attendance last season was just under 7,000, this year with a losing team now up to 8,500 with home derbies to come against Saints (twice), Wire and Salford plus both Hull clubs. This after floundering in the Championship for the previous 20 years with average crowds of 2,000. 
Does this latent/ dormant support still exist in places like Oldham, Widnes and Halifax?

Edited May 1 by Cheadle Leyther
Missed out Widnes

[N2022]

On 29/04/2024 at 08:22, Dave T said:

This is a weird take on a weekend when Leigh (joint 2nd from bottom on 2pts) wipe the floor with top of the table Catalans. 

I also suggest your memory isn't that good when suggesting that 10-12 could feasibly make the playoffs. No surprise, the teams 10-12 each year have been generally rubbish. 

I'm not really sure what your '8 team SL' really means tbh. 

Does that mean Leigh are Unofficial World Club Champions? After the Wigan and St Helen's result early season it transferred to Catalans, so now we have new UWCC. A commemorative shirt perhaps ...

[N2022]

On 29/04/2024 at 11:15, HawkMan said:

So you don't think if London knew that if they could finish 11th and stay up they would try to strengthen their squad ? And if Hull fans knew they'd be jeopardy re- their SL place, they might turn up in greater numbers?

I can't comment on squad building, but I do agree jeopardy brings in fans, perhaps more somewhere with a longer / better established place in the local community (Hull not London). As a general sports fan, I'd be keener to support my local club in a relegation must-win than a meaningless end-of-season mid-table game. For London in particular they are relying on novelty and or quality to fill the ground, and I for one am still resisting an urge of curiosity and general enjoyment of live league that I had imagined would have seen me down there by now from about an hour away. Do I want to go and sit with 900 strangers to see a team who are already relegated get thrashed? Or could I save my money for a T20 or two with my sons in a fuller ground?

[N2022]

On 29/04/2024 at 12:42, ATLANTISMAN said:

I really do believe that Ebbsfleet with a new stadium would be the ideal permanent home for a team in the South.

Most London fans also happen to be non league football fans and Kent is without doubt the best place for non league football in the entire country some step 5 games can attract over 1000 fans most of whom would like rugby league.

P

 

Ebbsfleet, population 3,000 ? I seriously doubt the home support down there would be more than they get with 5 to 10 million just a tube ride away playing in London. And you'd be much further from the northern exiles and travelling fans who turn up to support the away team.

Not saying it couldn't work but I think I know how it would go.

[bobbruce]

34 minutes ago, N2022 said:

I can't comment on squad building, but I do agree jeopardy brings in fans, perhaps more somewhere with a longer / better established place in the local community (Hull not London). As a general sports fan, I'd be keener to support my local club in a relegation must-win than a meaningless end-of-season mid-table game. For London in particular they are relying on novelty and or quality to fill the ground, and I for one am still resisting an urge of curiosity and general enjoyment of live league that I had imagined would have seen me down there by now from about an hour away. Do I want to go and sit with 900 strangers to see a team who are already relegated get thrashed? Or could I save my money for a T20 or two with my sons in a fuller ground?

Jeopardy is proven not to bring fans in. A team near the bottom of the leagues crowds will have dropped far more through the season than can be made up by a one off boost in some sort of relegation decider. 

[Worzel]

On 01/05/2024 at 14:03, Cheadle Leyther said:

It’s worked for us. Leigh’s average attendance last season was just under 7,000, this year with a losing team now up to 8,500 with home derbies to come against Saints (twice), Wire and Salford plus both Hull clubs. This after floundering in the Championship for the previous 20 years with average crowds of 2,000. 
Does this latent/ dormant support still exist in places like Oldham, Widnes and Halifax?

Very possibly. But it needs a multi-millionaire to unlock it. If one comes along, they can now spend their money far more sensibly and achieve entry to Super League through the points model. But one hasn't come along in the last 20 years under the old model so I very much doubt it. 

[Harry Stottle]

19 hours ago, Worzel said:

Very possibly. But it needs a multi-millionaire to unlock it. If one comes along, they can now spend their money far more sensibly and achieve entry to Super League through the points model. But one hasn't come along in the last 20 years under the old model so I very much doubt it. 

Would a multi millionaire be prepared to wait a good number of years to get promotion (repheased moved to SL) under this system?

 Mr Beaumont is not a multi millionaire and his methods are seemingly working from his end of '21 statement in relation to a 5 year plan, it is well on track to be  successful and bear fruit but had IMG's counting had begun and brought in 12 months earlier with the 3 year rolling scoring figures he may well have said 'what's the point, I'll spend my money on something else', so my question to you is 'will this system put off wealthy but not mega-rich men who may just have had an inkling and ambition to invest in a Rugby League club'?

Or it could perhaps be you dont think that SL is for clubs and town's like Leigh and it is better to keep them were they belong, who was it you used for examples not long ago, Swinton and Keighley? 

 

Edited May 3 by Harry Stottle

[Click]

28 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would a multi millionaire be prepared to wait a good number of years to get promotion (repheased moved to SL) under this system?

 Mr Beaumont is not a multi millionaire and his methods are seemingly working from his end of '21 statement in relation to a 5 year plan, it is well on track to be  successful and bear fruit but had IMG's counting had begun and brought in 12 months earlier with the 3 year rolling scoring figures he may well have said 'what's the point, I'll spend my money on something else', so my question to you is 'will this system put off wealthy but not mega-rich men who may just have had an inkling and ambition to invest in a Rugby League club'?

Or it could perhaps be you dont think that SL is for clubs and town's like Leigh and it is better to keep them were they belong, who was it you used for examples not long ago, Swinton and Keighley? 

 

You keep bringing up Beaumont and his 5 year plan. How much money do you think he spent before Leigh actually achieved SL?  And what did they achieve during those years other than eventually making it to SL?

Leigh's model of promotion isn't the best way to do it, it is far from perfect, and Leigh lost lots of money before eventually succeeding. 

You say that DH may have said "what's the point" etc if IMG came earlier, but that is just you putting your thoughts onto him, he has mentioned that he is working to improve IMG grades, and didn't seem all that critical. If IMG was so bad, nothing is stopping him from withdrawing his money right now.

[Worzel]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would a multi millionaire be prepared to wait a good number of years to get promotion (repheased moved to SL) under this system?

 Mr Beaumont is not a multi millionaire and his methods are seemingly working from his end of '21 statement in relation to a 5 year plan, it is well on track to be  successful and bear fruit but had IMG's counting had begun and brought in 12 months earlier with the 3 year rolling scoring figures he may well have said 'what's the point, I'll spend my money on something else', so my question to you is 'will this system put off wealthy but not mega-rich men who may just have had an inkling and ambition to invest in a Rugby League club'?

Or it could perhaps be you dont think that SL is for clubs and town's like Leigh and it is better to keep them were they belong, who was it you used for examples not long ago, Swinton and Keighley? 

 

Firstly, Derek is. Or at least in lieu of selling his business (when he would be), he's able to earn >£1m per year in order to put that into his club. Much like Neil Hudgell.

Secondly, if a local businessman is only prepared to fund the journey for one or two seasons, and this stops them engaging, then I think that's a good thing. No more boom and bust, a team coming up for one year and then not quite being able to sustain it in the elite league without the proper platform. The relegation. Then the local businessman saying "hang on, that's been enough now". 

In the last 30 years successes on that model have been very, very rare exceptions. But the failures are many.

Time for a new strategy.

 

[N2022]

On 01/05/2024 at 22:48, bobbruce said:

Jeopardy is proven not to bring fans in. A team near the bottom of the leagues crowds will have dropped far more through the season than can be made up by a one off boost in some sort of relegation decider. 

Maybe that's true about the boost coming mainly in the decisive weeks, but you are comparing that picture with the bigger gates that a team enjoying a successful season will attract.

My point is that if a team is poor the relegation battles will likely pull in bigger crowds than meaningless fixtures in a franchise or no p&r scenario or if effectively relegated from the off like Broncos.