Pacific Championships 2024

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

They really are hammering home the shorter season. That's the key messaging going on across all of these. It's almost like it's a done deal.

I think its the official party line tbh that basically keeps all of this in a box. 

In every exciting article and quote, it is tempered with that line.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I think its the official party line tbh that basically keeps all of this in a box. 

In every exciting article and quote, it is tempered with that line.

It beggars belief that they can gaslight and hoodwink people so easily.

[sam4731]

39 minutes ago, Damien said:

The moment players started to choose internationals over SOO then the whole SOO is the pinnacle charade was in danger of falling to pieces. Pretty quickly the NRL took away that choice from players to ensure this wouldn't happen. Hence why they continually push this end of season is the time for international RL line and talking it up like its somehow new.

I think from an NRL perspective, the way to sort it out is just to make players that turn out for PI nations ineligible for SoO. It would be a risky move because it could massively backfire but it would be interesting to see how much SoO actually matters to the players and whether they'd rule themselves out of it for their heritage.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I think from an NRL perspective, the way to sort it out is just to make players that turn out for PI nations ineligible for SoO. It would be a risky move because it could massively backfire but it would be interesting to see how much SoO actually matters to the players and whether they'd rule themselves out of it for their heritage.

There's just nothing in that for the NRL, it's a win/win at the moment. Without the choice and option of internationals at the same time there's no carrot for players not to choose SOO either.

[Exiled Wiganer]

38 minutes ago, Damien said:

Making up an argument? It's a message board, everyone is. What a weird statement.

The rest is just strawman stuff.

I am really puzzled by your refusal to consider actual facts. 
I also wonder whether it is a subtle joke to start with “it’s a message board” as a reason to discount my reasoning and then end 2 sentences later with “is just strawman stuff” as a further reason. If so, you may be Oscar Wilde reincarnated. 

[dkw]

41 minutes ago, Damien said:

There's just nothing in that for the NRL, it's a win/win at the moment. Without the choice and option of internationals at the same time there's no carrot for players not to choose SOO either.

As others have said, the NRL will never let anything effect the SOO games or build up, its their biggest cash cow and will take precedent over everything else in RL. The unfortunate part is they have far too much influence on the game outside of Australia so can bully their way through.

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

If each of NZ, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, England, PNG, Cooks and the Kangaroos play 3 autumn games (as happened last year) we get far more high quality internationals (12) than in the years the Kangaroos, NZ and England were the only quality show in town (when we might get 5 in a usual autumn). 

I see no reason that there can’t be mid season tests for all the nations other than Australia. Which I think would be an ideal next step. I haven’t seen any arguments around non Australian teams playing detracting from SoO - could you point me in the right direction to see that? 

Didn't Samoa & Cook Islands play two last year because they didn't make the finals?

Same as Cook Islands and Fiji this year (joined in only playing two by England and Samoa).

[Damien]

40 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I am really puzzled by your refusal to consider actual facts. 
I also wonder whether it is a subtle joke to start with “it’s a message board” as a reason to discount my reasoning and then end 2 sentences later with “is just strawman stuff” as a further reason. If so, you may be Oscar Wilde reincarnated. 

Funny what you post is facts but anyone else is arguments or opinions. Strange that.

You don't get to frame the debate and decide what are high quality matches, Tonga were losing by 1 point to New Zealand 30 years ago for goodness sake, and come out with things people haven't even said either. Its also disingenuous, and quite bizarre, to go back 50 years and compare to the 1970s when RL wasn't even played in some of these countries until the mid 1980's. More RL than then for some of these countries isn't a shock now is it.

Your 'facts' often aren't facts, they are your opinion. Until the SL wars we had a Pacific Cup that was played every 2 years from 1986. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji et al regularly played 4-6 games in this. In a year Australia may have played 6 games or more, sometimes as many as 9, GB as many as 11. In a year like 1994 we had Australia playing 6 games, GB 4 games, Tonga 6 games, Samoa 6 games, Fiji 6 games, Cook Islands 6 games plus the likes of Niue too. This was pretty much the case every 2 years with other matches in the intervening years. Sure the years in between may have been leaner for the smaller countries but no one denies otherwise. The point is it was not the picture some choose to portray.

Yes people are angry about the NRL re-writing history because they are re-writing history like we've never had it so good and like we have never done this stuff before. You just repeat their line. They also airbrush their role in getting to the situation we are in now, the blockers they have put in other countries way and the sabotage they have done to then take over the international game to then be seen as the saviours. What you also fail to realise is that with the current international scene and finally 6-8 reasonably competitive teams that we should be doing better than before, not just aiming for less. That should not be the benchmark. What we see now is the bare minimum and we should be doing much better.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Damien

[JM2010]

They just need to have an International weekend to play some tests. Can’t be on the same time as Origin as there’s lots of players eligible for both. I’ve said already that the ANZAC test plus Tonga vs Samoa and PNG vs Fiji needs to be in the calendar mid season 

[Dunbar]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

Just play it at the same time as Origin for goodness sake. You just never see any journalists in Australia ever be critical of the NRL or question it when it comes to the international game. They just repeat the NRL party line parrot fashion. Even when players speak out they put their own slant on it:

The next step is ensuring that Tonga and Samoa play more regularly, with the rivals last facing off in Sydney back in 2018 when almost 18,000 fans packed out Campbelltown Stadium.

They then had to wait another four years for their next meeting at the World Cup where Samoa snuck past Tonga in the quarter-final before they shocked England the following week to book a date with the Kangaroos.

Leniu played in that final and last year’s Pacific Cup but missed out on this year’s UK tour, with the NSW prop urging officials to bring in an annual three-match series to rival the Origin experience.

Those matches would have to be played at the end of the year to avoid any tough decisions by players who would be eligible for both series, with Leniu expecting the Tests to be on another level.

“Hopefully, they can do an Origin series with us and Tonga,” he said, with a potential shorter NRL season in coming years set to make series like this possible.

“It’s probably the biggest Pacific Island rivalry between us and Tonga.

“When I saw Taumalolo and those guys flip and play for their little nation, that definitely inspired me to want to play for Samoa. That’s my goal in my career so far to let the Samoans around the world that want to play, I want to make sure that they want to play for Samoa.

“When we went to the World Cup final in 2022, that was one of the proudest moments of my career so far.

“I reckon Tonga and Samoa has to be like an Origin series. It would be unbelievable. Probably (play) one in New Zealand and then one or two in Sydney or Brisbane.

“I don’t care when, I just want it to happen. There is no bigger rivalry than us and Tonga in the Pacific.

“They hate us and we hate them, so it’ll be a good game.

“There’s so much respect for them and what they’ve able to achieve for their small nation. Us two countries going about it on the biggest stage would be good for both nations.”

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/they-hate-us-and-we-hate-them-samoa-stars-plea-over-pacific-series-to-rival-state-of-origin/news-story/8f427d7478acc265fbb79215a9b0365d

If you play it at the same as Origin you are asking players like Spencer Leniu to choose one or the other., wouldn't we want the Pacific Island nations to be at full strength?

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If you play it at the same as Origin you are asking players like Spencer Leniu to choose one or the other., wouldn't we want the Pacific Island nations to be at full strength?

I'd rather have international games mid season than no games. How many players are we actually talking about anyway? I wouldn't have thought that many, we did it before and there was only a few players really with this choice, and if the calendar was good enough they may pick the international game anyway.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Damien

[StandOffHalf]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

Just play it at the same time as Origin for goodness sake. You just never see any journalists in Australia ever be critical of the NRL or question it when it comes to the international game. They just repeat the NRL party line parrot fashion. Even when players speak out they put their own slant on it:

The next step is ensuring that Tonga and Samoa play more regularly, with the rivals last facing off in Sydney back in 2018 when almost 18,000 fans packed out Campbelltown Stadium.

They then had to wait another four years for their next meeting at the World Cup where Samoa snuck past Tonga in the quarter-final before they shocked England the following week to book a date with the Kangaroos.

Leniu played in that final and last year’s Pacific Cup but missed out on this year’s UK tour, with the NSW prop urging officials to bring in an annual three-match series to rival the Origin experience.

Those matches would have to be played at the end of the year to avoid any tough decisions by players who would be eligible for both series, with Leniu expecting the Tests to be on another level.

“Hopefully, they can do an Origin series with us and Tonga,” he said, with a potential shorter NRL season in coming years set to make series like this possible.

“It’s probably the biggest Pacific Island rivalry between us and Tonga.

“When I saw Taumalolo and those guys flip and play for their little nation, that definitely inspired me to want to play for Samoa. That’s my goal in my career so far to let the Samoans around the world that want to play, I want to make sure that they want to play for Samoa.

“When we went to the World Cup final in 2022, that was one of the proudest moments of my career so far.

“I reckon Tonga and Samoa has to be like an Origin series. It would be unbelievable. Probably (play) one in New Zealand and then one or two in Sydney or Brisbane.

“I don’t care when, I just want it to happen. There is no bigger rivalry than us and Tonga in the Pacific.

“They hate us and we hate them, so it’ll be a good game.

“There’s so much respect for them and what they’ve able to achieve for their small nation. Us two countries going about it on the biggest stage would be good for both nations.”

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/they-hate-us-and-we-hate-them-samoa-stars-plea-over-pacific-series-to-rival-state-of-origin/news-story/8f427d7478acc265fbb79215a9b0365d

A Pacific Series mid-season would be awesome, and the NRL know it.

 

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'd rather have international games mid season than no games. How many players are we actually talking about anyway? I wouldn't have thought that many and if the calendar was good enough they may pick the international game anyway.

From the 2024 State of Origin series we have Brian To'o, Stephen Crichton, Jarome Luai, Haumole Olakau'atu, Spencer Leniu, Moeaki Fotuaika, Felise Kaufusi, Jaydn Su'a, Jeremiah Nanai, Heilum Luki, Brendan Piakura and potentiallly Payne Haas and Murray Taulagi depending on who they put their hand up for.

 

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'd rather have international games mid season than no games. How many players are we actually talking about anyway? I wouldn't have thought that many, we did it before and there was only a few players really with this choice, and if the calendar was good enough they may pick the international game anyway.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Just play the dang internationals.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

From the 2024 State of Origin series we have Brian To'o, Stephen Crichton, Jarome Luai, Haumole Olakau'atu, Spencer Leniu, Moeaki Fotuaika, Felise Kaufusi, Jaydn Su'a, Jeremiah Nanai, Heilum Luki, Brendan Piakura and potentiallly Payne Haas and Murray Taulagi depending on who they put their hand up for.

As I said I'd rather have international games mid season than no games and am comfortable giving these players choice.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

As I said I'd rather have international games mid season than no games and am comfortable giving these players choice.

Personally, I would rather have State of Origin selected from a full pool of players and internationals selected from a full pool of players.

The reason why we have such a strong international game now if because the PI heritage players have put their hands up to represent those nations despite being native born Australians in a lot of cases.

Put aside the pros and cons of running a simultaneous SOO and Pacific Island test series from a logistics perspective, I don’t think it is fair on the players making them choose.  Whatever they choose, we would end up with two weakened series and a player not achieving what they would have been able to in their career because they are being asked to choose between representing the State of their birth (or early playing days) and the heritage of their family.

You may be ok with forcing that choice but I am not.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Personally, I would rather have State of Origin selected from a full pool of players and internationals selected from a full pool of players.

The reason why we have such a strong international game now if because the PI heritage players have put their hands up to represent those nations despite being native born Australians in a lot of cases.

Put aside the pros and cons of running a simultaneous SOO and Pacific Island test series from a logistics perspective, I don’t think it is fair on the players making them choose.  Whatever they choose, we would end up with two weakened series and a player not achieving what they would have been able to in their career because they are being asked to choose between representing the State of their birth (or early playing days) and the heritage of their family.

You may be ok with forcing that choice but I am not.

Players make choices all the time and giving them the opportunity to play more international games is a good thing in my opinion. They are being forced at the moment to play SOO instead of being given the opportunity to play international games as in the past.

We did this before so I highly doubt logistics is a big deal.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

Players make choices all the time and giving them the opportunity to play more international games is a good thing in my opinion. They are being forced at the moment to play SOO instead of being given the opportunity to play international games as in the past.

We did this before so I highly doubt logistics is a big deal.

Tonga v Samoa would be highly likely to be played in either Australia or New Zealand. It creates no more logistical problem than any other game involving people who ordinarily play in Australia or New Zealand.

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Just play the dang internationals.

This is pretty much it isn't it? Short of having completely free weekends mid season, which seems as far away as ever, then other ways need to be found. If you enjoy the international game then I don't see how you would ever be happy with 11 months of no international Rugby League and only 3 end of season games.

In 2018 we had England v NZ in Denver, Tonga v Samoa and PNG v Fiji on the same weekend as SOO, all to near 20k crowds, and I enjoyed them all immensely. Sure teams may not be at full strength etc but I'd take that any day over no match like we have now.

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Players make choices all the time and giving them the opportunity to play more international games is a good thing in my opinion. They are being forced at the moment to play SOO instead of being given the opportunity to play international games as in the past.

We did this before so I highly doubt logistics is a big deal.

Sure.  And we would end up with a player (let's pick Jarome Luai as an example) playing SOO while Samoa play internationals mid-season and then for Samoa at the end of the season Pacific Championships and at World Cups.  This will do nothing for the growing credibility of the international game.

I just don’t think the first thing we should do after an international season that has shown such promise is weaken it again.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Tonga v Samoa would be highly likely to be played in either Australia or New Zealand. It creates no more logistical problem than any other game involving people who ordinarily play in Australia or New Zealand.

Logistics and organising games really should be no issue in RL when the vast majority of players are based in Australia and we only have 2 fully professional league. Other sports have way more complications and manage it fine.

[Dunbar]

10 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Tonga v Samoa would be highly likely to be played in either Australia or New Zealand. It creates no more logistical problem than any other game involving people who ordinarily play in Australia or New Zealand.

It does provide challenges.

The NRL today play games on the weekend after State of Origin (some get bye's, some play each weekend after State of Origin).  The club's seem ok with this compromise today but if they started to see more players taken out of their roster for Pacific Island tests at the same time as Origin - would the NRL games be viable and would club's start to push back.  That is a significant consideration.

Edit to add that players are stood down from their club team the weekend before Origin.  Is this the same for the proposed Pacific Island tests or are you thinking the players would back up weekend /  mid-week / weekend for 3 games.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Dunbar

[Dave T]

If we look at the Top nations and compare to, say 2016:

	2016	2024
Aus	6	3
NZ	6	3
Eng	5	3
Sco	3	2
Wal	3	2
Fiji	2	2
Lebanon	2	0
Tonga	1	3
Fra	1	3
PNG	1	3
Samoa	1	2
Cook Island	1	2

Nobody was looking at 2016 and saying - "you know what this needs? fewer games from the top 3 teams". If you just eyeball that list on the left - your natural aim would be to bring those at the bottom of the list up to the ones at the top.  

This just isn't a serious international sport.

 

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If we look at the Top nations and compare to, say 2016:

	2016	2024
Aus	6	3
NZ	6	3
Eng	5	3
Sco	3	2
Wal	3	2
Fiji	2	2
Lebanon	2	0
Tonga	1	3
Fra	1	3
PNG	1	3
Samoa	1	2
Cook Island	1	2

Nobody was looking at 2016 and saying - "you know what this needs? fewer games from the top 3 teams". If you just eyeball that list on the left - your natural aim would be to bring those at the bottom of the list up to the ones at the top.  

This just isn't a serious international sport.

And in 2016 we were all saying those teams should get more games too and that the Pacific Test concept should be expanded to something similar to what we have now. There was nothing stopping that happening then and the rest still happening.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

And in 2016 we were all saying those teams should get more games too and that the Pacific Test concept should be expanded to something similar to what we have now. There was nothing stopping that happening then and the rest still happening.

Yep. When people talk about all the groundwork that has been done with the Pacific Nations it doesn't deal in reality. They hardly played for nearly 20 years.