31 replies to this topic

[nec]

First off, apologies for the slightly cheeky tag line, I thought the thread would get ignored if it was too polite.

My question is as follows; we have heard plenty of discussion about policies that don't work, what do you want the RFL to do from now to help your club. I will put some ideas below to provoke discussion, but they are not exclusive and I would welcome any additional ideas. I think it would be useful to avoid 'I wouldn't start from here' posts and concentrate on what can be done in the future rather than perceived errors of the past.

Potential ideas;

a) Restore automatic promotion/relegation to SL at the end of the current round of licenses

Bring in promotion/relegation to SL with strict criteria over finances and facilities at the end of the current round of licenses

c) Bring in promotion to SL given strict criteria at the end of the current round of licenses with a 3 year window for clubs to bed in, without any necessity for clubs to be relegated for a promotion

d) Increase funding to Championship & C1 clubs (on sliding scale?) without any strings attached

e) Increase funding to Championship & Championship 1 clubs with a pre-requisite that the money goes towards specific long-term objectives such as stadia, youth development and crowd growth

f) Re-organise the leagues below SL to provide for a larger Championship & for some clubs to go to RLCN or a summer NCL

g) Get rid of the Northern Rail Cup completely

h) Move the NRC to a pre-season competition

i) Make the NR 9's a pre-season competition or a competition to run on the same weekend as the Play-Off finals (obviously excluding the 4 finalists)

j) Encourage dual registration and the use of feeder teams by SL clubs

k) Remove Toulouse, Skolars, Skorpions & Gateshead to reduce travel costs

l) Encourage further applications from clubs in new areas, allowing for the fact that in most cases this would mean few away fans travelling

m) Remove restrictions to clubs running sides at every level

n) Move back to winter season

I put these forward without any agenda whatsoever, I have my own thoughts but I am not a fan of a current club outside SL and will try to keep them to myself for a while. It would be nice to get some ideas of how the sport outside SL can best move forward from where we are at the moment without the rancour that some of these discussions can spawn.

[interested]

k) Remove Toulouse, Skolars, Skorpions & Gateshead to reduce travel costs

why not go the whole hog, and also get rid of the cumbrian teams, and york, that way only those teams on the m62 will actually be in the league, that way the league could be split into an east and west, reducing travel costs to virtually zero, and making virtually every game a derby - thus also increasing crowds as people watch derbies - win win all round

Edited by interested, 23 July 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[Derwent]

For starters...

1. A workable fixture list, particularly in CC1, where clubs don't go weeks without a home game and in some cases weeks without any game at all. Whether this involves condensing the season, restructuring the leagues etc is open for discussion. But something has to be done in this area.

2. Someone to be employed by the RFL to oversee the game below SL level. Give them a remit to be 'CEO' of the Cooperative Championship leagues and concentrate solely on sorting out that level of the game, allowing Wood & Lewis to concentrate on the big ticket issues (SL, International game, expansion and funding etc).

3. A TV contract that is actually worth something to the clubs should be the Number 1 priority.

4. A centralised marketing/business development department doing the promotional work for all clubs, instead of the current system of individual clubs doing it themselves very badly on very limited resources.

5. A revival of a proper transfer fee system to compensate CC clubs adequately when SL clubs take their best players. Although the Bosman ruling restricts what can be done legally, there is no reason why there can't be a voluntary 'gentlemans agreement' in place which all clubs sign up to in the same way as the salary cap gets around the legalities.

6. Introduce an 'add on' to SL season tickets where the purchaser can pay say £100 more and get unrestricted admission to all CC games in that season. This money to be divided equally between the CC clubs.

[nec]

For starters...

1. A workable fixture list, particularly in CC1, where clubs don't go weeks without a home game and in some cases weeks without any game at all. Whether this involves condensing the season, restructuring the leagues etc is open for discussion. But something has to be done in this area.

2. Someone to be employed by the RFL to oversee the game below SL level. Give them a remit to be 'CEO' of the Cooperative Championship leagues and concentrate solely on sorting out that level of the game, allowing Wood & Lewis to concentrate on the big ticket issues (SL, International game, expansion and funding etc).

3. A TV contract that is actually worth something to the clubs should be the Number 1 priority.

4. A centralised marketing/business development department doing the promotional work for all clubs, instead of the current system of individual clubs doing it themselves very badly on very limited resources.

5. A revival of a proper transfer fee system to compensate CC clubs adequately when SL clubs take their best players. Although the Bosman ruling restricts what can be done legally, there is no reason why there can't be a voluntary 'gentlemans agreement' in place which all clubs sign up to in the same way as the salary cap gets around the legalities.

6. Introduce an 'add on' to SL season tickets where the purchaser can pay say £100 more and get unrestricted admission to all CC games in that season. This money to be divided equally between the CC clubs.

I love 2, 4 and 6.

Number 1 I'd agree. Number 3 is a chicken & egg situation, until the TV companies see a viable league with good support & standards they will not offer much more as they will have no coimpetition for the rights.

Number 5 would work for about 7 minutes until a SL CEO spotted a loophole, if it isn't legally enforceable a coach and horses would be driven through it

[Lobbygobbler]

To be honest I think the RFL prior to full licensing were on the road to getting it right, with safe places in SL for non-heartland teams, P&R, and minimum standards.

This could have been improved in my opinion if there was an extra SL promotion spot for the team finishing top (i.e. the same system we have in NL2), and more cash flowing down to NL1 thus making it a significantly more palatable place to be for fans and players. Also the RFL could have been a bit more lenient with minimum standards for promoted teams giving a 3 year period for that club to sort out the stadium etc. In addition the RFL could have applied those standards to those already in SL, which was sadly lacking.

Therefore I would advocate the following:

1) Restore automatic promotion/relegation to SL/NL1/NL2 at the end of the current round of licenses, with 2 up 2 down (1 for coming top and 1 by top 2-7 playoff), and strict criteria over finances and facilities at the end of the current round of licenses FOR ALL CLUBS INC THOSE ALREADY IN SL (however a 3 year stay of grace to sort this out for promoted clubs, if they stay up that is)

2) No relegation for French or Welsh teams in SL, until the sport is full cemented in those countries

3) Increase funding to Championship & Championship 1 clubs with a pre-requisite that the money goes towards specific long-term objectives such as stadia, youth development and crowd growth

4) Get rid of the Northern Rail Cup completely. It wouldn't be need with summat to play for every year

5) Encourage further applications from clubs in new areas, allowing for the fact that in most cases this would mean few away fans travelling

6) Remove restrictions to clubs running sides at every level

7) Strict financial penalties on SL clubs for stealing young talent and managers in NL1/NL2

[no13benny]

It seems like a nice idea to have it all, P&R every year, 3 years for promoted sides to bed in, expansion clubs immune for R.

But in reality the standard of Super League would crumble within a couple of years, with a massive gap between top and bottom, and sides having a one off poor season would either break the cap to get out of trouble, or harm the product we have further by going down.

bottom half of SL:

Wakefield
Quins exemp
Catalans exemp
Salford exemp
Featherstone 3 years exemp
Barrow 3 years exemp

Championship:
Warrington
Hull FC

(for example, from last season.)

That would have meant this season, last week, no Hull derby, no Wigan Warrington match at the top of SL.

How is that good for the game?

[tim2]

7) Strict financial penalties on SL clubs for stealing young talent and managers in NL1/NL2

Stealing? How do they do that exactly? We have laws about freedom of employment and unless someone is contracted they are free to do what they want. Clubs have to accept that players will want to better themselves. They may not like it, but they have to accept it. The same applies to Championship clubs and community clubs like mine.

I would license the Championship to match the next round of licenses with 14 clubs and a target of 16 for 2015. I would state that the eventual goal would be two divisions of Super League, but only when enough clubs met full criteria (say 20 total for SL and a minimum of an additional 12 meeting Championship criteria). With 10 in the top SL division, you could then loosen the salary cap.

Having a champion in the RFL is a good idea. Having centralised marketing isn't bad - they do some of this anyway.

NRC group games are ######. The competition itself is good - just ask Batley. In the event of having 24+ league games (as per the licensed scenario) you would have 16 teams in the NRC (the 14 licensed clubs plus top two in the league below). Play two rounds pre-season and then all you need is semi-finals at end of May (blank weekend for others) and the final + 9s in July.

No more games in Jan/Feb. How this affects internationals I don't know, but it's horrible.

Challenge Cup - I like the concept that there's a competition where someone like Siddal or West London could potentially play Leeds or Wigan. The CC Final is also a great event. However the rest of the comp seems to be losing its appeal. Not sure how to deal with this to be honest.

Dual registration blows. I don't like it - I would actually prefer to see SL reserve sides plying their trade in the league below the Championship (see Spanish football for how this works). The whole summer pyramid structure should be "open", no distinction between amateur and professional.

[ckn]

Stealing? How do they do that exactly? We have laws about freedom of employment and unless someone is contracted they are free to do what they want. Clubs have to accept that players will want to better themselves. They may not like it, but they have to accept it. The same applies to Championship clubs and community clubs like mine.

I do agree with you to a point, especially as the Championship leagues simply do not allow someone to earn good money as they could in SL.

I'd probably look to a compensation scheme run by the RFL and funded by the SL clubs where if a SL club poaches someone youth qualified at a Championship club then the Championship club is entitled to compensation based on games played over the next few years. If the player goes on to be a first-team regular then they get decent compensation over the period, if they stagnate into the reserves then they get very little.

This would have two benefits for me that outweigh all the negatives. First, the Championship clubs would get something for their efforts in youth development, especially if they find a "star". Second, the SL clubs would have an incentive to use British youths because they've already invested in the compensation pot.

That'd be an unworkable solution if we had P&R from SL to the Championship but with franchises it's a good way for young players to make the jump to a fully-pro contract.

[nec]

Could I ask martyn or john to collate these ideas and put them to the rfl or cost them out in their magazines? This debate is too important to ignore any potential solution from any source. There may be stuff here that is completely unworkable but there will be other ideas that might be cost neutral but invigorating to those clubs outside sl.

Thanks for the fantastic ideas so far, rugby league is at it's best when it is constantly looking to improve rather than whinging about what has gone wrong before.

[jannerboyuk]

First off, apologies for the slightly cheeky tag line, I thought the thread would get ignored if it was too polite.

My question is as follows; we have heard plenty of discussion about policies that don't work, what do you want the RFL to do from now to help your club. I will put some ideas below to provoke discussion, but they are not exclusive and I would welcome any additional ideas. I think it would be useful to avoid 'I wouldn't start from here' posts and concentrate on what can be done in the future rather than perceived errors of the past.

Potential ideas;

a) Restore automatic promotion/relegation to SL at the end of the current round of licenses

I would be happy to see p and r re-introduced but to do so on a whim is short sighted. The RFL should declare that they want that system and what the minimum criteria in terms of the general health of the championship is so that people can see why we can't afford p and r now and how we can get back to it. Whether it is traditional or not is irrelvant - is it good for the game is the only criteria

Bring in promotion/relegation to SL with strict criteria over finances and facilities at the end of the current round of licenses

c) Bring in promotion to SL given strict criteria at the end of the current round of licenses with a 3 year window for clubs to bed in, without any necessity for clubs to be relegated for a promotion

d) Increase funding to Championship & C1 clubs (on sliding scale?) without any strings attached

I would like to see money distributed to best effect and growing and feeding this level of the prospective pyramid would be good but from where?

e) Increase funding to Championship & Championship 1 clubs with a pre-requisite that the money goes towards specific long-term objectives such as stadia, youth development and crowd growth

f) Re-organise the leagues below SL to provide for a larger Championship & for some clubs to go to RLCN or a summer NCL

a proper pyramid would be great if we can get there

g) Get rid of the Northern Rail Cup completely

nah - its a nice little comp that the clubs seem to want and the players seem to want to win. i look forward to the scorps playing in it and a few more french clubs will be interesting. league fans are too miserable and short term to have any input into this question, the rfl needs to perservere

h) Move the NRC to a pre-season competition

i) Make the NR 9's a pre-season competition or a competition to run on the same weekend as the Play-Off finals (obviously excluding the 4 finalists)

j) Encourage dual registration and the use of feeder teams by SL clubs

dual registration and feeder clubs is a horror that shuold be abandoned, murdered, cut up into tiny pieces and buried deep underground. horrible.

k) Remove Toulouse, Skolars, Skorpions & Gateshead to reduce travel costs

if clubs don't want to travel they should withdraw from a national comp and apply to a regional merit league. heartland fans sometimes seem to moan about being shortchanged yet are so eager to kick some of the most dedicated volunteers, administrators and fans in the face. talk of the rugby league family seems dubious at best on occasion

l) Encourage further applications from clubs in new areas, allowing for the fact that in most cases this would mean few away fans travelling
hopefully we can get a point where teams can make good applications to the appropriate level of the pyramid and then be left to find their own level

m) Remove restrictions to clubs running sides at every level

n) Move back to winter season

never quite made up my mind on this one. i would be happy either way

I put these forward without any agenda whatsoever, I have my own thoughts but I am not a fan of a current club outside SL and will try to keep them to myself for a while. It would be nice to get some ideas of how the sport outside SL can best move forward from where we are at the moment without the rancour that some of these discussions can spawn.

[jannerboyuk]

For starters...

1. A workable fixture list, particularly in CC1, where clubs don't go weeks without a home game and in some cases weeks without any game at all. Whether this involves condensing the season, restructuring the leagues etc is open for discussion. But something has to be done in this area.

absolutely spot on. on issue for established clubs even more so for new ones

2. Someone to be employed by the RFL to oversee the game below SL level. Give them a remit to be 'CEO' of the Cooperative Championship leagues and concentrate solely on sorting out that level of the game, allowing Wood & Lewis to concentrate on the big ticket issues (SL, International game, expansion and funding etc).

cracking idea. would be good to see a 'face', someone who has the remit to stand up for the interests of the lower leagues

3. A TV contract that is actually worth something to the clubs should be the Number 1 priority.

hard to see where this could come from. we all enjoy the champ games on sky but it rarely goes above 40-60k

4. A centralised marketing/business development department doing the promotional work for all clubs, instead of the current system of individual clubs doing it themselves very badly on very limited resources.

agree, but how to fund it?

5. A revival of a proper transfer fee system to compensate CC clubs adequately when SL clubs take their best players. Although the Bosman ruling restricts what can be done legally, there is no reason why there can't be a voluntary 'gentlemans agreement' in place which all clubs sign up to in the same way as the salary cap gets around the legalities.

agree, bosman could be challenged

6. Introduce an 'add on' to SL season tickets where the purchaser can pay say £100 more and get unrestricted admission to all CC games in that season. This money to be divided equally between the CC clubs.

i would buy that

[Northern Sol]

NCL to move to summer and merge with RLCN leaving two feeder leagues: North & Midlands/South with a view to the Midlands/South eventually the equivalent of CC1 but for clubs outside the North. Promotion to CC should be from both a Northern CC1 and the south-of-Sheffield CC1.

[jannerboyuk]

To be honest I think the RFL prior to full licensing were on the road to getting it right, with safe places in SL for non-heartland teams, P&R, and minimum standards.

This could have been improved in my opinion if there was an extra SL promotion spot for the team finishing top (i.e. the same system we have in NL2), and more cash flowing down to NL1 thus making it a significantly more palatable place to be for fans and players. Also the RFL could have been a bit more lenient with minimum standards for promoted teams giving a 3 year period for that club to sort out the stadium etc. In addition the RFL could have applied those standards to those already in SL, which was sadly lacking.

Therefore I would advocate the following:

1) Restore automatic promotion/relegation to SL/NL1/NL2 at the end of the current round of licenses, with 2 up 2 down (1 for coming top and 1 by top 2-7 playoff), and strict criteria over finances and facilities at the end of the current round of licenses FOR ALL CLUBS INC THOSE ALREADY IN SL (however a 3 year stay of grace to sort this out for promoted clubs, if they stay up that is)

2) No relegation for French or Welsh teams in SL, until the sport is full cemented in those countries

3) Increase funding to Championship & Championship 1 clubs with a pre-requisite that the money goes towards specific long-term objectives such as stadia, youth development and crowd growth

4) Get rid of the Northern Rail Cup completely. It wouldn't be need with summat to play for every year

5) Encourage further applications from clubs in new areas, allowing for the fact that in most cases this would mean few away fans travelling

6) Remove restrictions to clubs running sides at every level

7) Strict financial penalties on SL clubs for stealing young talent and managers in NL1/NL2

i dont agree with 2 even though i support all welsh rl, the scorpions have shown the right attitude to have. they joined the bottom of the existing pyramid and will work to establish themselves and be as ambitious as they are able. this send out the right message to other interested parties and is how it should be.

[Bleep1673]

2) No relegation for French or Welsh teams in SL, until the sport is full cemented in those countries

The game has been cemented in France since 1934, how long do you want?

Personally I would want another 2 clubs in C1, as Swinton have gone a whole month without A home game in the last 2 seasons, restructure the NRC, don't get rid of it altogether. This year it was divided into 2 groups, playing 6 games each, how can you allow teams through on that criteria, when some clubs don't play each other.

I like the idea of allowing super league season ticket holders in to matches, paying the extra for the privalige might mean they turn up, although any kind of increase could reduce the number of season tickets sold in the current economic state, also I can't see the Hull clubs fans paying extra, and not having a Championship side close by.

Parent clubs could be a way of getting SL players fully match fit after injury, but how would we structure it? I wouldn't want any Salford players playing for us, as I would doubt their commitment. SL clubs might choose Champ clubs only and ignore C1.

More cash would be helpful, but it doesn't solve the longer running problems.

[bowes]

NCL to move to summer and merge with RLCN leaving two feeder leagues: North & Midlands/South with a view to the Midlands/South eventually the equivalent of CC1 but for clubs outside the North. Promotion to CC should be from both a Northern CC1 and the south-of-Sheffield CC1.

I'd have 2 National divisions below the Championship and then split into North West, North East and South (as the RFL want), though over time you could move the North/South split further up the pyramid til it reaches a higher level. Though only Skolars and Hemel would currently be southern in those national divisions (if the Championship expands to include South Wales).

I'd expand the Championship and have it open to any sides meeting minimum criteria, but no automatic promotion and relegation until you reach the national divisions and then I'd have minimum standards between the national and regional divisions to begin with.

[bowes]

Personally I would want another 2 clubs in C1, as Swinton have gone a whole month without A home game in the last 2 seasons, restructure the NRC, don't get rid of it altogether. This year it was divided into 2 groups, playing 6 games each, how can you allow teams through on that criteria, when some clubs don't play each other.

It was actually 4 games

[Bleep1673]

It was actually 4 games

correct, my mistake, Swinton played Workington (A), Doncaster (H), Batley (A), and Widnes (H)
Won 2 Lost 2

Between the 4th July and 22nd August Inclusive we only have 3 home games, with 2 blank weekends, and 2 awaygames

Edited by Bleep1673, 23 July 2010 - 11:48 AM.

[nec]

correct, my mistake, Swinton played Workington (A), Doncaster (H), Batley (A), and Widnes (H)
Won 2 Lost 2

Between the 4th July and 22nd August Inclusive we only have 3 home games, with 2 blank weekends, and 2 awaygames

Is there any suggestion that the fixture lost may be designed to facilitate part-time players, administrators and fans taking summer holidays? Just occured to me that their may be some method in what appears to be madness.

[Lobbygobbler]

I'd have 2 National divisions below the Championship and then split into North West, North East and South (as the RFL want), though over time you could move the North/South split further up the pyramid til it reaches a higher level. Though only Skolars and Hemel would currently be southern in those national divisions (if the Championship expands to include South Wales).

I'd expand the Championship and have it open to any sides meeting minimum criteria, but no automatic promotion and relegation until you reach the national divisions and then I'd have minimum standards between the national and regional divisions to begin with.

Perhaps even regionalise below NL1? Just need a couple more southern/midlands teams....

[Derwent]

Is there any suggestion that the fixture lost may be designed to facilitate part-time players, administrators and fans taking summer holidays? Just occured to me that their may be some method in what appears to be madness.

There may be an element of that but I don't think it's the main driver.

It's not just the blank weekends that are the problem it's the lopsided nature of some clubs' fixture lists. Take Hunslet as an example - they played at home in the league on 11th April and didn't have another home league fixture until 20th June ! In the interim period they had 6 consecutive away league games. That must play havoc with their cashflow. It surely can't be beyond the RFL's ability to have a fixture list that doesn't give a club 10 weeks without a home fixture ?