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A whole different ball game


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#1 bestgameofall

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:50 PM

It has long been a annoyance to me that the analysis of the game over here doesn't make more of the tactics employed by teams. Sky have improved in the last couple of years, but nevertheless, when we discuss the game, winners, losers etc, or potential tactics, it all too often comes down to which team has a big set of forwards, who was more committed, who turned up in the day etc, with little reference to tactical nuance. I have to add to that although I welcome the addition of a tactics column to the new Rugby League World, Phil Larder does little to develop beyond these points (his analysis of the England France game for instance)

It was with some delight therefore to read the following column from Jason Taylor (ex. Souths coach) in his Sydney morning herald piece on 'The Chalkboard'.

Link?

My point is not to discuss the merits of his analysis of these teams (hence this is not in the NRL section), but rather to encourage our analysts and experts to look more deeply into our game. Such an approach would do a great deal to counter accusations that we are a fundamentally simplistic game based upon five drives and a kick.



#2 hindle xiii

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 07:00 PM

Paul Cullen, or more recently Jon Wells, give it a go on Boots 'N All.

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#3 Lee

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE (bestgameofall @ Aug 12 2010, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has long been a annoyance to me that the analysis of the game over here doesn't make more of the tactics employed by teams. Sky have improved in the last couple of years, but nevertheless, when we discuss the game, winners, losers etc, or potential tactics, it all too often comes down to which team has a big set of forwards, who was more committed, who turned up in the day etc, with little reference to tactical nuance. I have to add to that although I welcome the addition of a tactics column to the new Rugby League World, Phil Larder does little to develop beyond these points (his analysis of the England France game for instance)

It was with some delight therefore to read the following column from Jason Taylor (ex. Souths coach) in his Sydney morning herald piece on 'The Chalkboard'.

Link?

My point is not to discuss the merits of his analysis of these teams (hence this is not in the NRL section), but rather to encourage our analysts and experts to look more deeply into our game. Such an approach would do a great deal to counter accusations that we are a fundamentally simplistic game based upon five drives and a kick.



Good read, alas with have very few who can put that point across or do we give them an outlet to do so, a fleeting 10 mins on boots n all is not good enough, id ideally like to see an hour long programme solely on it, giving each game 10 mins of analysis or so.

Paul Cullen and more recently Jon Wells have been excellent in this 10 minute slot then we get 50 minutes of garbage after, cant see it changing anytime soon.





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#4 jannerboyuk

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:23 PM

QUOTE (bestgameofall @ Aug 12 2010, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has long been a annoyance to me that the analysis of the game over here doesn't make more of the tactics employed by teams. Sky have improved in the last couple of years, but nevertheless, when we discuss the game, winners, losers etc, or potential tactics, it all too often comes down to which team has a big set of forwards, who was more committed, who turned up in the day etc, with little reference to tactical nuance. I have to add to that although I welcome the addition of a tactics column to the new Rugby League World, Phil Larder does little to develop beyond these points (his analysis of the England France game for instance)

It was with some delight therefore to read the following column from Jason Taylor (ex. Souths coach) in his Sydney morning herald piece on 'The Chalkboard'.

Link?

My point is not to discuss the merits of his analysis of these teams (hence this is not in the NRL section), but rather to encourage our analysts and experts to look more deeply into our game. Such an approach would do a great deal to counter accusations that we are a fundamentally simplistic game based upon five drives and a kick.

i have to agree that phil larder has been a disappointment really. It reads like a two page match report at times. Less of telling us what has happened but why is needed.
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#5 Padge

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (hindle xiii @ Aug 12 2010, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Paul Cullen, or more recently Jon Wells, give it a go on Boots 'N All.

Jon Wells has been an excellant find in this aspect, Cullen is good but he still has a somewhat overcoached media presence, he should learn to relax a bit. (no comments please about his current problems).

We are starting to get some players coming through these days who are good communicators, Wilkin springs to mind (though he usually shoots the game in the back). We need to ensure that its these guys who get stuck in front of the cameras and when they retire are given every help to get themselves involved in the media in some way.


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#6 The Parksider

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE (bestgameofall @ Aug 12 2010, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My point is not to discuss the merits of his analysis of these teams (hence this is not in the NRL section), but rather to encourage our analysts and experts to look more deeply into our game. Such an approach would do a great deal to counter accusations that we are a fundamentally simplistic game based upon five drives and a kick.


For a period Phil Clark explained how the players used dummy runners, delayed passes, cut out passes and all that to engineer the half gap to get over the line. The skills are subtle and fascinating when explained.

Lately the analysis I have picked up is about how certain players are tergetted to run at. They are quality players as playmakers and in attack, but the quid pro quo is their weaker defence so the opposition send their big men crashing towards these weak links.

The commentators really MUST commentate on how the game is being tactically played out, but they aren't really up to it with any consistency.

Commentaries can be very lazy and boring, and it's sad that they get away with it.

Stevo is a legend, but he is too obsessed with disagreeing with the referee.


#7 Padge

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 12 2010, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stevo is a legend, but he is too obsessed with disagreeing with the referee.

just like many supporters he has a go at the ref because he doesn't understand what's going on.



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#8 DiH68

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:06 AM

They have a weekly show on Fox in Australia called NRL Tactics which discusses the tactics of all the games at the weekend. It's usually Brett Kimmorley and a couple of other guys.it's really good and gives a great insight. Shame super league can't do something similar on Sky

#9 dallymessenger

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:02 AM

QUOTE (DiH68 @ Aug 13 2010, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They have a weekly show on Fox in Australia called NRL Tactics which discusses the tactics of all the games at the weekend. It's usually Brett Kimmorley and a couple of other guys.it's really good and gives a great insight. Shame super league can't do something similar on Sky

http://www.foxsports...hows/nrltactics

#10 thirteenthman

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:59 AM

Tony Rea used to do a good analysis on Boots'n'all before he went back to Oz. I've always thought they should get Brian Carney and Phil Clarke to do something along the lines of NRL Tactics. Both of them seem to know what there talking about (putting Phil's Wigan bias aside), and both seem to get quite frustrated by how things get trivialised by Eddie, Stevo and the likes.

This week's B'n'A was a good example with the feature about visualisation techniques. Bill Arthur made a throw away comment about putting players in a trance, to which Carney replied, 'I think you're doing Phil's report a disservice there.' It's odd, considering the level of tactical analysis afforded other sports on Sky.



#11 bendyas

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:10 AM

The analysis of sport in general in this country is utter garbage.

Below this level is Phil Larder's section in RLW.


sad.gif


#12 amh

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:22 AM

QUOTE (bendyas @ Aug 13 2010, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The analysis of sport in general in this country is utter garbage.

Below this level is Phil Larder's section in RLW.


sad.gif


I thought of you Ben when I read this topic, because you have posted on these lines for years, and the lack of match analysis posts on here too.

Maybe John could ask Phil to look here, and at the Aus show and reporting, and they could do a piece on the subject next month. Once highlighted, maybe we could all add our voices to ask Sky to move in this direction. It's not like it's not been asked for before, and as has been mentioned, some of the Sky team are trying, but perhaps we need to show in numbers how much of a demand for it there is.

Edited by amh, 13 August 2010 - 09:40 AM.

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#13 marklaspalmas

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:13 AM

This topic crops up regularly and no-one does anything about it.

NRL tactics is very good.

SKY are pretty ######. Rea was ok, Clarke could be but isn't. Stevo's famous "Pure skill factor" 'analysis' of every try is just woeful.

Phil Larder in RLW is desperately disappointing and a waste of space. Why get a Union guy to do this? His insight is absolutely zero.

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#14 amh

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:39 AM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Aug 13 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This topic crops up regularly and no-one does anything about it.


Agreed Mark, and that is why I refer to 'we' doing something about it, presuming previous efforts have been from individuals?

Even a facebook page for people to join and show the number of us who care? It seems to be the modern method instead of a written petition

Perhaps Phil is the wrong person, I was just trying to avoid insulting him - he does his best after all. I want John as editor to pick this topic up and run with it.

Edited by amh, 13 August 2010 - 09:40 AM.

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#15 getdownmonkeyman

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:59 AM

In an ideal world, RLW would get a different coach each month to explain one of their preferred attacking/defensive techniques and explain how it is executed and the tought process of it's origins.

The only barrier to this is the potential coyness of letting the cat out of the bag, so to speak.

#16 amh

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (getdownmonkeyman @ Aug 13 2010, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only barrier to this is the potential coyness of letting the cat out of the bag, so to speak.


Any coach worth his salt will have the opposition sussed anyway, and coach accordingly, so the only people let in on the act will be us the fans, and we're not asking for everything to be revealed, just an insight

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#17 John Drake

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:51 AM

QUOTE (amh @ Aug 13 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I want John as editor to pick this topic up and run with it.


Thanks for your PM, Maggie. Comments noted. Feedback appreciated, as always.

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#18 tag

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 12 2010, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For a period Phil Clark explained how the players used dummy runners, delayed passes, cut out passes and all that to engineer the half gap to get over the line. The skills are subtle and fascinating when explained.

Lately the analysis I have picked up is about how certain players are tergetted to run at. They are quality players as playmakers and in attack, but the quid pro quo is their weaker defence so the opposition send their big men crashing towards these weak links.
The commentators really MUST commentate on how the game is being tactically played out, but they aren't really up to it with any consistency.

Commentaries can be very lazy and boring, and it's sad that they get away with it.

Stevo is a legend, but he is too obsessed with disagreeing with the referee.


Its not just to target a weak defender,thats a bit insulting to some players,this tactic is used to tire a player(from working hard in defence)which makes their attacking effectivness less than it would otherwise be.

#19 Usera

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE (bendyas @ Aug 13 2010, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The analysis of sport in general in this country is utter garbage.

Below this level is Phil Larder's section in RLW.


sad.gif


I actually think that Phil Larder's column is far better written and more interesting than most articles on tactics/analysis. Certainly for a more general audience, ie. people without an incredibly deep knowledge of the game ,they are pretty good.

#20 bendyas

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE (Usera @ Aug 13 2010, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I actually think that Phil Larder's column is far better written and more interesting than most articles on tactics/analysis. Certainly for a more general audience, ie. people without an incredibly deep knowledge of the game ,they are pretty good.


I'm going to go home and quote some of it in here. It's worse than garbage.





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