Sticking at it in wrexham

[jannerboyuk]

Posts like this from the wrexham footy site, redpassion, make me wish we really do stick at it in wrexham. maybe an historical opportunity.

"To be honest its not feeling like a tough decision. If i'm perfectly honest I didn't feel that bad at 4.45pm on Saturday, think I'd been expecting the loss. Now when I look back at how gutted I felt at 9.00pm on Saturday then that tells me that I'm deffo being led into a new sporting passion. I had never EVER watched a game of rugby league in my life before our opener against Leeds, I don't even watch the 6 nations cos rugby didn't do it for me. However, after that first game I was somewhat hooked.

Me, my hubby and 2 kids have been Wrexham season ticket holders for the last 6 years and every season it feels more like going to the dentist rather than an enjoyable few hours supporting our once good team. Watching the Crusaders is a whole new ball game, literally.... The atmosphere is fantastic - no negativity about the place (unless you get blatant, ###### officials - which is very rare compared to every game with the footie!!) but more importantly the players play like they should, they look like they care!! They look and act like they appreciate every single supporter, after every game they give back the applause to the crowd - every little thing like that makes it slightly more enjoyable at the moment.

So, yes... as you say following two teams that don't set the world alight is hard really, especially for my youngest son who gets so much ###### off his school mates for supporting Wrexham and for not being a glory hunter and supporting a Prem team, but it just means that following one is a damn sight more enjoyable than the other one... and yes I'll still be there tomorrow night but unfortunately I won't be cheering as loudly as I will do on September 4th. And if that means that I'm being led over to the dark side then so be it....

And I'm sorry that I'm no good with words but you can get my point - i think!"

[RP London]

Posts like this from the wrexham footy site, redpassion, make me wish we really do stick at it in wrexham. maybe an historical opportunity.

"To be honest its not feeling like a tough decision. If i'm perfectly honest I didn't feel that bad at 4.45pm on Saturday, think I'd been expecting the loss. Now when I look back at how gutted I felt at 9.00pm on Saturday then that tells me that I'm deffo being led into a new sporting passion. I had never EVER watched a game of rugby league in my life before our opener against Leeds, I don't even watch the 6 nations cos rugby didn't do it for me. However, after that first game I was somewhat hooked.

Me, my hubby and 2 kids have been Wrexham season ticket holders for the last 6 years and every season it feels more like going to the dentist rather than an enjoyable few hours supporting our once good team. Watching the Crusaders is a whole new ball game, literally.... The atmosphere is fantastic - no negativity about the place (unless you get blatant, ###### officials - which is very rare compared to every game with the footie!!) but more importantly the players play like they should, they look like they care!! They look and act like they appreciate every single supporter, after every game they give back the applause to the crowd - every little thing like that makes it slightly more enjoyable at the moment.

So, yes... as you say following two teams that don't set the world alight is hard really, especially for my youngest son who gets so much ###### off his school mates for supporting Wrexham and for not being a glory hunter and supporting a Prem team, but it just means that following one is a damn sight more enjoyable than the other one... and yes I'll still be there tomorrow night but unfortunately I won't be cheering as loudly as I will do on September 4th. And if that means that I'm being led over to the dark side then so be it....

And I'm sorry that I'm no good with words but you can get my point - i think!"

i think shes quite good with words from that to be fair.. very nice to hear and yes we need to stick with it for a while

[Saint Billinge]

The atmosphere on Saturday (Saints match) was amazing. Pre-match, it was great seeing the kids enjoy the fun provided by Engage. One little Welsh girl dressed in her rugby kit and small drum to hand looked a picture of enthusiasm. All in all, a very enjoyable day out.

[dallymessenger]

good crowd average but some awful crowds against some eg quins / wakey

great potential to be a sustainable / succesful expansion club in a way london has never managed

proximity to the RL heartlands in the north of england helps

[Futtocks]

unless you get blatant, ###### officials - which is very rare compared to every game with the footie!

Obviously an anonymous post from a certain Mr Gledhill.

[marklaspalmas]

Good story

Crusaders attendance stats here:

http://www.slstats.org/t45/Crusaders+Rugby...10/Summary.html

Which of those games were played at Neath?

[brooza]

Good story

Crusaders attendance stats here:

http://www.slstats.org/t45/Crusaders+Rugby...10/Summary.html

Which of those games were played at Neath?

Cas and Quins (Quins were moved at last minute to Friday at 18:00

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Baring in mind that Wrexham was a last minute move as well, we could see even greater numbers next year with season ticket improvements, etc.

North Wales should have been explored years ago with its proximity to the heartlands.

[dallymessenger]

what does the relative success of wrexham vs brigend say about the need to have an expansion club develop in the championship first before getting into SL.

CC got promoted from NL2 and came 2nd in NL1 and still failed pretty much

wrexham got thrown in the deep end and have done better.

[Mumby Magic]

North Wales should have been explored years ago with its proximity to the heartlands.

Does anyone know if the North Wales Coasters or any reincarnation are still on the go? Hope they are as this woul have been a great start to spread the game across the North Coast of Wales. How's about an "On the Road" game at Rhyl Towns ground for example?

[Maximus Decimus]

what does the relative success of wrexham vs brigend say about the need to have an expansion club develop in the championship first before getting into SL.

CC got promoted from NL2 and came 2nd in NL1 and still failed pretty much

wrexham got thrown in the deep end and have done better.

Not necessarily.

First of all I think Wrexham should of course be persisted with and should only be judged at the end of the next 3 year period as to their viability.

However, things aren't looking all too rosy in my opinion. Even taking out on the on the road games, their crowds have declined markedly and this despite some on the field success. The game against St Helens was a big game for them and yet they managed 1,000 less than the previous year against St Helens in Bridgend. It was also a similar size to a big game at a similar stage in the season against Wigan, however at this stage last year CC were an appalling side who had lost many more games than this year. I think if they were challenging for the playoffs in similar circumstances in Bridgend then they would have got more than 5,300.

You could also make a case (as I often did) that CC hadn't made a successful go of it in the Championship. Sure they'd done well on the pitch but there were big questions of it and crowds were one of them.

[Mumby Magic]

Not necessarily.

First of all I think Wrexham should of course be persisted with and should only be judged at the end of the next 3 year period as to their viability.

However, things aren't looking all too rosy in my opinion. Even taking out on the on the road games, their crowds have declined markedly and this despite some on the field success. The game against St Helens was a big game for them and yet they managed 1,000 less than the previous year against St Helens in Bridgend. It was also a similar size to a big game at a similar stage in the season against Wigan, however at this stage last year CC were an appalling side who had lost many more games than this year. I think if they were challenging for the playoffs in similar circumstances in Bridgend then they would have got more than 5,300.

You could also make a case (as I often did) that CC hadn't made a successful go of it in the Championship. Sure they'd done well on the pitch but there were big questions of it and crowds were one of them.

Typical RL opinion, have you worked out the average attendances for Crusaders for which you base your opinion or are you shooting from the hip. Is one season at Wrexham enough for which you base your opinion?

[dallymessenger]

Not necessarily.

First of all I think Wrexham should of course be persisted with and should only be judged at the end of the next 3 year period as to their viability.

However, things aren't looking all too rosy in my opinion. Even taking out on the on the road games, their crowds have declined markedly and this despite some on the field success. The game against St Helens was a big game for them and yet they managed 1,000 less than the previous year against St Helens in Bridgend. It was also a similar size to a big game at a similar stage in the season against Wigan, however at this stage last year CC were an appalling side who had lost many more games than this year. I think if they were challenging for the playoffs in similar circumstances in Bridgend then they would have got more than 5,300.

You could also make a case (as I often did) that CC hadn't made a successful go of it in the Championship. Sure they'd done well on the pitch but there were big questions of it and crowds were one of them.

on the field wrexham have done better than CC.

off the field they have exceeded them too

CC had 3 years to prepare in what was nl1 and 2

wrexham had 6 weeks to get a team together.

new coach, many new players, new ground etc .

top down does work if there is money behind it.

i do agree the crowd vs saints was a little disappoining, things certainly arent 100% there but they are looking ok

Edited August 24, 2010 by dallymessenger

[Wellsy4HullFC]

on the field wrexham have done better than CC.

off the field they have exceeded them too

CC had 3 years to prepare in what was nl1 and 2

wrexham had 6 weeks to get a team together.

new coach, many new players, new ground etc .

top down does work if there is money behind it.

i do agree the crowd vs saints was a little disappoining, things certainly arent 100% there but they are looking ok

They had the coach from the back end of the previous season. The squad, however, was slightly harder to come by with not knowing where they would be playing!

I wouldn't judge just yet to say whether it is a success or not. But the opening signs are much more encouraging than Celtic Crusaders, which was a poor set up from the beginning. We may have hit a niche here. But it's not necessarily top-down. The club relocated, so have had the chance to learn from their previous mistakes and start afresh somewhere else. Moving Quins to Oxford for example wouldn't be the same as Oxford starting up from scratch.

[Maximus Decimus]

Typical RL opinion, have you worked out the average attendances for Crusaders for which you base your opinion or are you shooting from the hip. Is one season at Wrexham enough for which you base your opinion?

How many seasons in Super League did they have in Bridgend and what exactly is my opinion that I'm basing on one year?

I have used attendances actually but the averages alone are worthless here because there is a definite decline in the attendances of the Crusaders in Wrexham. This is due to the excitement they generated when they came into the division. If you want the facts you can have them, just because some of them aren't positive doesn't mean they should be ignored.

Crusaders first 5 game average at Wrexham: 6690

Crusaders second 5 game average at Wrexham: 3759

Celtic Crusaders average at Bridgend: 3507

I was originally replying to Dally who was suggesting that they have been successful in comparison to Bridgend, despite Bridgend being given time in the Championship. They've obviously done better on the pitch but off the pitch this isn't quite so straight forward. The most worrying thing about the second 5 games is that they included 2 of their biggest away followings in Warrington and St Helens. The CC average isn't much different despite Crusaders being bottom for all but 3 weeks of last year and having the biggest RL scandal in recent times.

The Crusaders have done some good things this year but the jury is certainly still out on their long term viability. Next year they won't have that initial burst of enthusiasm for something new and this will probably result in a lower average overall.

[Maximus Decimus]

on the field wrexham have done better than CC.

off the field they have exceeded them too

CC had 3 years to prepare in what was nl1 and 2

wrexham had 6 weeks to get a team together.

new coach, many new players, new ground etc .

top down does work if there is money behind it.

i do agree the crowd vs saints was a little disappoining, things certainly arent 100% there but they are looking ok

I would attribute a lot of their success on the pitch to Brian Noble who was already with the Crusaders.

Like I said, I originally said that CC weren't ready for Super League and so it proved. So I would dispute the 3 years preparedness argument. They were pretty much top down as well.

Top down at Wrexham, which it isn't entirely is yet to be shown to work. As I've shown in my other post, in Wrexham their attendances have declined considerably to a similar level they were in Bridgend. This despite their improvement on the pitch and closer proximity to away followings.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

How many seasons in Super League did they have in Bridgend and what exactly is my opinion that I'm basing on one year?

I have used attendances actually but the averages alone are worthless here because there is a definite decline in the attendances of the Crusaders in Wrexham. This is due to the excitement they generated when they came into the division. If you want the facts you can have them, just because some of them aren't positive doesn't mean they should be ignored.

Crusaders first 5 game average at Wrexham: 6690

Crusaders second 5 game average at Wrexham: 3759

Celtic Crusaders average at Bridgend: 3507

I was originally replying to Dally who was suggesting that they have been successful in comparison to Bridgend, despite Bridgend being given time in the Championship. They've obviously done better on the pitch but off the pitch this isn't quite so straight forward. The most worrying thing about the second 5 games is that they included 2 of their biggest away followings in Warrington and St Helens. The CC average isn't much different despite Crusaders being bottom for all but 3 weeks of last year and having the biggest RL scandal in recent times.

The Crusaders have done some good things this year but the jury is certainly still out on their long term viability. Next year they won't have that initial burst of enthusiasm for something new and this will probably result in a lower average overall.

All very fair and valid points. However, you need to remember that there will hardly have been any season ticket sales due to moving there 6 weeks before the start of the season, which will affect the core crowd greatly. Next year while there may not be the huge burst of enthusiasm, there will hopefully be a more stable fan base through season ticket sales.

And, compared to Bridgend, at least there was that burst of enthusiasm and for that long.

It's a shame that Bridgend didn't continue in the Championship though which they were trying to do at the start of the season alongside the Scorpions. Could have been a good local derby there.

[dallymessenger]

I would attribute a lot of their success on the pitch to Brian Noble who was already with the Crusaders.

Like I said, I originally said that CC weren't ready for Super League and so it proved. So I would dispute the 3 years preparedness argument. They were pretty much top down as well.

Top down at Wrexham, which it isn't entirely is yet to be shown to work. As I've shown in my other post, in Wrexham their attendances have declined considerably to a similar level they were in Bridgend. This despite their improvement on the pitch and closer proximity to away followings.

wrexham with zero years in nl1 and 2 have done better in SL than CC did with their 3 years in those competitions.

this shows the futility of making expansion teams go through the championship as any kind of proving ground

for whatever reason wrexham are a stronger club than CC, they have been set up better.

[dallymessenger]

They had the coach from the back end of the previous season. The squad, however, was slightly harder to come by with not knowing where they would be playing!

I wouldn't judge just yet to say whether it is a success or not. But the opening signs are much more encouraging than Celtic Crusaders, which was a poor set up from the beginning. We may have hit a niche here. But it's not necessarily top-down. The club relocated, so have had the chance to learn from their previous mistakes and start afresh somewhere else. Moving Quins to Oxford for example wouldn't be the same as Oxford starting up from scratch.

the proximity to the RL heartlands will make the biggest difference.

if they can get good crowds for the lancashire / chesire clubs who are close by and also LEeds rhinos, thats sets the club up for at least 5000 crowd averges.

[Mumby Magic]

How many seasons in Super League did they have in Bridgend and what exactly is my opinion that I'm basing on one year?

I have used attendances actually but the averages alone are worthless here because there is a definite decline in the attendances of the Crusaders in Wrexham. This is due to the excitement they generated when they came into the division. If you want the facts you can have them, just because some of them aren't positive doesn't mean they should be ignored.

Crusaders first 5 game average at Wrexham: 6690

Crusaders second 5 game average at Wrexham: 3759

Celtic Crusaders average at Bridgend: 3507

I was originally replying to Dally who was suggesting that they have been successful in comparison to Bridgend, despite Bridgend being given time in the Championship. They've obviously done better on the pitch but off the pitch this isn't quite so straight forward. The most worrying thing about the second 5 games is that they included 2 of their biggest away followings in Warrington and St Helens. The CC average isn't much different despite Crusaders being bottom for all but 3 weeks of last year and having the biggest RL scandal in recent times.

The Crusaders have done some good things this year but the jury is certainly still out on their long term viability. Next year they won't have that initial burst of enthusiasm for something new and this will probably result in a lower average overall.

Excellent reply. We all seem to overlook the holiday period when looking at attendances too. I'm am personally encouraged by their attendances even down at Bridgend. They are already at the attendance level of Salford after 2 seasons at SL level. A move back to Neath for a few games saw the attendances at 2400 approx which isn't disasterous to say it's still new ground. I think the ticket prices to a "new" audience are slightly high but that is my only grumble.

On a side note, a good little snippet on South Wales Scorpions was on the Super League Show and it was very interesting.

[Maximus Decimus]

wrexham with zero years in nl1 and 2 have done better in SL than CC did with their 3 years in those competitions.

this shows the futility of making expansion teams go through the championship as any kind of proving ground

for whatever reason wrexham are a stronger club than CC, they have been set up better.

In what way? I've shown how when their attendances have settled they are no better and their team is essentially the same team they would have been likely to have in Bridgend.

They saw growth in the Championship too but were promoted far too early. They still only had a core of around 1000 fans when they came up. They only sold 250 season tickets when they entered Super League, that shows how unprepared they still were. They were still a top down promotion to Super League, no doubt about it.

[Maximus Decimus]

All very fair and valid points. However, you need to remember that there will hardly have been any season ticket sales due to moving there 6 weeks before the start of the season, which will affect the core crowd greatly. Next year while there may not be the huge burst of enthusiasm, there will hopefully be a more stable fan base through season ticket sales.

And, compared to Bridgend, at least there was that burst of enthusiasm and for that long.

It's a shame that Bridgend didn't continue in the Championship though which they were trying to do at the start of the season alongside the Scorpions. Could have been a good local derby there.

Agree with all those points. The season ticket one will be especially interesting as Celtic only managed 250 season tickets in their first year in Super League. That will be the true test of how many people they have converted because the drop off has been worrying. This was where Catalans managed to take off. They went from 1500 ST's to something like 5000 in a couple of years if I remember correctly. If they don't get many ST holders I think they'll struggle next year.

There could have been enthusiasm in Bridgend, especially if they'd been more competitive on the pitch. The enthusiasm at Wrexham was great but if it's not sustained then it's useless. Let's not forget we had 17,000 in Paris that had dwindled to 500 within a couple of years for whatever reason. I'm sure people at the end of the first year were talking in similar ways to this.

They should have tried to get another team going in Bridgend. They had easily enough support for a decent NL2 club.

[Maximus Decimus]

Excellent reply. We all seem to overlook the holiday period when looking at attendances too. I'm am personally encouraged by their attendances even down at Bridgend. They are already at the attendance level of Salford after 2 seasons at SL level. A move back to Neath for a few games saw the attendances at 2400 approx which isn't disasterous to say it's still new ground. I think the ticket prices to a "new" audience are slightly high but that is my only grumble.

On a side note, a good little snippet on South Wales Scorpions was on the Super League Show and it was very interesting.

I know little about the running of an NL2 club but if the SW Scorpions are doing Ok and not losing money then I think we should aim to put another couple of NL2 clubs in Wales in the next few years.

[dallymessenger]

In what way? I've shown how when their attendances have settled they are no better and their team is essentially the same team they would have been likely to have in Bridgend.

They saw growth in the Championship too but were promoted far too early. They still only had a core of around 1000 fans when they came up. They only sold 250 season tickets when they entered Super League, that shows how unprepared they still were. They were still a top down promotion to Super League, no doubt about it.

nonsense.

they spent 3 years preparing for SL in NL1 and 2.

this preparation did nothing for them.

you say it was too soon for CC to be promoted to SL after 3 years preparing yet wrexham had 6 weeks and have done better.

pretty conclusive.

and im not buying the way you pick the crowds to suit your argument. their average is over 5000 which is excellent

[chrisl1]

It would be more appropriate to judge Crusaders and their attendances at the end of next season to see if they are growing. It is pointless comparing the attendances at Wrexham this season with those at Bridgend last season. All Super League clubs rely to a greater or lesser extent on away support to help their home attendances. The proximity of Wrexham to other Super League clubs when compared with Bridgend obvioulsy means that the Crusaders should have been able to rely on more away supporters attending their games this season. The true test will be next season.

Edited August 24, 2010 by chrisl1