The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[keighley]

On the whole question of P & R, I am pro to its concept but I do have an overriding fear, which for mine was the reason that it was dropped for the licensing concept in the first place, being:-

 

The promoted team had insufficient time to generate a team that was capable of competing at a much higher level than it had be come accustomed to playing in, the timing of the CC Grand Final was of such that the only players left available were the ones from the team heading in the opposite direction, or spending, or should I say wasting money on very ordinary overseas players.

 

Whatever the decision next week, and I do hope that we reinstate P & R, whether it is from 2x12 = 3x8 or straight 1 or 2 up/down, we should still use 2014 season for the qualification process for entry into the SL, but we should restrict the entry till the beginning of 2016, this could then be carried forward on that 2 season cycle, i.e. 2015 qualifiers gain entry in 2017................... and so on. 

 

The 2014 season as far as the SL is concerned could be deemed a "trial" season and not until the end of the 2015 season should the qualification for relegation be enforced, this would then revert to each season to mesh with annual P&R.

 

The promoted team should also be given the SL funding for the period they are in the “waiting season” this would allow them a full season of preparation and recruitment not only in playing personnel but also the backroom staff required, they could market the SL entry in their locality, give a big promotion to Season Ticket sales et, etc. in fact prepare accordingly and not as the knee jerk reaction as they had to do previous.

 

Huddersfield, Hull KR, Castleford and Wakefield all managed to bridge the gap after promotion and are all still in SL.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I inferred from your point about recent posts being about money that you reckoned it shouldn't be so important.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

No problem, I am not the best at expressing myself sometimes,

 

My position is that i think the game is likely to become more and more about Money and Sky, Which makes it vital for me that we keep the Elite clubs Elite, ( whoever they might be )

 

This is not to belittle the fans of any club in any way.

[JohnM]

From the amount of support p and r is receiving on this thread and from the expressions of interest on a return to some form of p and r emanating from the league leaders and administrators, I would say that there is a lot of interest on p and r, despite it being one of your pet hates and worst fears.

 

There is no money at Bradford and Wakefield and Castleford and who knows how long there will be any at London. Fev have it, Halifax have recently had more money from a sponsor. Leigh seem confident they can hack SL. What are you afraid of ?. Let the chips fall and relegate some of those in trouble and promote some of the stronger Championship teams with apparent investment.

 

Ring fencing failures is definitely not a good game plan for the future.

 

From the amount of support p and r is receiving on this thread

 

but there isn't universal support on here for a return to damaging  single season points-based automatic P and R. The current  and R system is fine and it does have the merit of not dragging the game down a level.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I believe Huddersfield did finally win a trophy this last season and Leeds didn't.

 

Yes they did finally win something, Rated 3rd out of 3 but i'm sure KD was very glad to win it, I Know i was, and winning anything in SL does not come easy.

 

IMO people like Davy , Lenaghan et al, are not used to losing, They are winners in business, and they want to be winners in this business as well,They are not interested in playing at a lower level. No one really can Fault KD for his staying power, Huddersfield when he took control were at the very bottom, He has spent a fortune to get them to their current position, and all his talk is of the future, and he see's that future at the top level, so who knows.

 

On the other hand i get the feeling that many people are accepting that below perhaps the top 8, It is going to be lower level,  and they are happy for that to happen because they will be able to compete , I fully understand this, and who knows what club will be in that lower level in years to come.

 

This is a realistis view but what bothers me about this is that somehow SL is going to have to pay for this, and is it going to work, or will it just be an expensive failure ?,  We all know what it costs to run a top club and i just don't see this extra money going to the lower clubs getting them past the first rung, without massive help from a Money man, Which i know can happen sometimes, ( Fev seem to be well placed here )

 

There really should be some way to fund a strong second tier, and let SL take the game forward, Particularly on SKY,

[The Parksider]

Thank god they went with the robust plans of Wakefield, Bradford and Salford eh?

 

Only a matter of time before a Halifax fan took offence.

 

HALIFAX - business plan "Inadequate" "speculative" "insufficient" "below standard"

 

WAKEFIELD - "financial governance poor"

 

BRADFORD - "faces challenges"

 

SALFORD - "ambitious targets"

 

None of the three clubs you mention had "robust plans" at all. Wakey had gone bust, Bradford had Odsal as a millstone around their neck and Salford were only admitted because the RFL gave them a chance as they had built a new ground.

 

With deepest respect petty jealousies don't advance the argument and the argument IMVHO is that when they tried to select the best 14 Superleague clubs for this round of licensing there were only four real Superleague clubs.

 

The rest were inadequate some more than others.

 

Bradford collapsed in SL and ended up with an 8,500 crowd

 

Wakefield Collapsed in SL and ended up with an 8,172 crowd

 

Salford fell apart in SL and ended up with an 3,178 crowd

 

Halifax bombed in SL and ended up with a 2,977 crowd.

 

It just does not follow that a Superleague clubs failure to compete with clubs on a £6,000,000 turnover makes them more useless than clubs who can't even manage a £600K turnover.

[The Parksider]

For me a 12 club SL with P&R of either 1 or 2 clubs could be the way forward,  This new thing will be given it's chance like all the others i expect, But SL has been getting more and more competitive, and next year looks like being even better, Why would you want to risk spoiling that. For me It's the best part of the game,

 

Whatever level Huddersfield play at i shall continue to support them , But they are 1 tooth on the cog, as are all other clubs, If they get to a position where they can't hack it in the top league, then they have to go, till they get back to where they can hack it . I still want to see the best on TV, and i would do nothing that would jeapordise that, It is by far the main reason i pay for SKY,  There must be a lot more like me.

 

I always enjoy your posts, 12 clubs "could be" the way forward. Spot on the adding of "could". If not we may be down to ten, but as you say Superleague as the TV face of RL has to be "the best"  it should therefore not be "jeapordised" and IMVHO as yours the vast majority pay for SKY to see the Elite.

 

One fascinating thing I will be looking for if we get 2x12=3x8 is just how many second tier "8" matches will be put on SKY given there will be elite games available to show at the same time??

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I always enjoy your posts, 12 clubs "could be" the way forward. Spot on the adding of "could". If not we may be down to ten, but as you say Superleague as the TV face of RL has to be "the best"  it should therefore not be "jeapordised" and IMVHO as yours the vast majority pay for SKY to see the Elite.

 

One fascinating thing I will be looking for if we get 2x12=3x8 is just how many second tier "8" matches will be put on SKY given there will be elite games available to show at the same time??

 

This is something i have questioned, If they show only the top games and ignore the second 8, Then the top 8 are going to be on TV a lot more than has been the case, Some of these clubs will lose revenue from this, Are they going to be happy.

 

There is always the chance that this along with other issues has been looked into, It is surely not possible they would go ahead with this without sorting all such things as this

[The Parksider]

From the amount of support p and r is receiving on this thread and from the expressions of interest on a return to some form of p and r emanating from the league leaders and administrators, I would say that there is a lot of interest on p and r, despite it being one of your pet hates and worst fears.

 

Would you like me to quantify the actual numerical level of support for P & R on this thread?

 

I would guess it's about 25 people....

I would guess the 100,000 people who support big SL clubs don't give a brass farthing for P & R....

I would guess the 12,000 fans of 18 championship clubs who will never be Superleague clubs also don't give a "monkeys" for P & R......

 

I would guess that many pragmatic fans amongst the few Championship clubs with a chance of promotion that may not end in total disaster will also be ambivolent?

 

I can try my best to statistically gauge the groundswell of support for P & R evidenced on this thread but at this point in time I make it (as an estimate only) 1%.....

 

The league leaders want P & R to ensure the Superleague doesn't collapse by forcing clubs to carry on under the glass ceiling, which their chairmen will not do. I don't think you are receptive to this point, it is important though. Four clubs want P & R so that their decline is arrested for a season or two until they get promotion and are found out.

[The Parksider]

This is something i have questioned, If they show only the top games and ignore the second 8, Then the top 8 are going to be on TV a lot more than has been the case, Some of these clubs will lose revenue from this, Are they going to be happy.

 

There is always the chance that this along with other issues has been looked into, It is surely not possible they would go ahead with this without sorting all such things as this

 

We've been this way before as with everything. As Shirley Bassey sang history is repeating itself.

 

Rugby League is entertainment pure and simple and the audience want top entertainment.

 

So for Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal read Leeds, Warrington, Saints, Wigan......

 

Sure, SKY are happy in their press release to welcome "jeapordy" and to look forward to showcasing the fantastic relegation tussles...

 

1996 Workington.v.Paris 2000 fans

1997 Oldham 0 Bradford 68

1998 Huddersfield won 2 games and stayed up

1999 Huddersfield still there

2000 Huddersfield still won't go. Teamed up with Sheffield to avoid relegation

2001 Huddersfield still there but Hunslet and Dewsbury too skint and small to go up.

2002 Salford.v.Wakefield stunning draw before 3,000 fans

2003 Halifax win first game lose the rest then lose the points for the first game. Damp squib.

2004 After NINE years we finally get our first TV Relegation stunner. Widnes 6 Cas 7, 7,000 crowd.

2005 Oh no.....Leigh down early on.....no TV relegation battles AGAIN

2006  Cas at Wakey 11,000 crowd TV stunner..................

 

I'll stop there. After that I recall HKR fans swamping the Willows for a crucial game - 7,000 fans.

 

The reality is on the past record SKY will showcase the big clubs not the failing clubs who will only throw up the odd big game.......

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Would you like me to quantify the actual numerical level of support for P & R on this thread?

I would guess it's about 25 people....

I would guess the 100,000 people who support big SL clubs don't give a brass farthing for P & R....

I would guess the 12,000 fans of 18 championship clubs who will never be Superleague clubs also don't give a "monkeys" for P & R......

I would guess that many pragmatic fans amongst the few Championship clubs with a chance of promotion that may not end in total disaster will also be ambivolent?

I can try my best to statistically gauge the groundswell of support for P & R evidenced on this thread but at this point in time I make it (as an estimate only) 1%.....

The league leaders want P & R to ensure the Superleague doesn't collapse by forcing clubs to carry on under the glass ceiling, which their chairmen will not do. I don't think you are receptive to this point, it is important though. Four clubs want P & R so that their decline is arrested for a season or two until they get promotion and are found out.

If anything proves that you don't know how to put a statistical argument together, it's this post.

To say you're putting "actual" quantities, and then "guess" figures with no actual evidence to back your guesses up is pointless and not even worthy of a reply.

[808tone]

How long before we see SL teams playing Bath/Exeter etc.in 1996 Dean Richards said that both codes will come back together sooner or later yet it has not happened yet.

Both Rugby codes are going through some climate change where we don't know what the results will be.

[keighley]

I see that Leigh, who are constantly pilloried for their one and only poor season in SL, have attracted a multi million pound company as a sponsor and doubled their season ticket sales according to tw o recent posts on the board whilst several SL clubs are well down on their season ticket sales.

Never mind though. This can't all be true because it's a fact that nobody or no company in their right mind would put money into a championship side.

So that's Leigh, Featherstone and Halifax who have all found investors or sponsors, all in decent grounds, whilst London are playing in a mini ground with diminished crowds, Wakefield and Bradford are having money troubles.

But p and r is not a good idea. Let's not give any opportunity to those improving clubs. Let's make sure all the struggling incumbents are under no pressure to improve and justify their hold on a SL spot.

Sky would much rather show London v Catalans on British TV than a repeat of the Featherstone v Wigan or Halifax v Huddersfield derby. Let's keep the same old, same old members of the SL and not introduce and different or fresh names to the mix, nor let the n ew investors have a piece of the action.

[The Parksider]

I see that Leigh, who are constantly pilloried for their one and only poor season in SL, have attracted a multi million pound company as a sponsor and doubled their season ticket sales according to tw o recent posts on the board whilst several SL clubs are well down on their season ticket sales.

Never mind though. This can't all be true because it's a fact that nobody or no company in their right mind would put money into a championship side.

 

Whether a club is a Superleague side or a Championship side is not the point is it? Your still trying to pick teams, draw boundaries, and then state how unfair it all is on your "team"  rather than focus on the actual realities.

 

There are SL sides who were Championship sides and Championship sides who were SL sides, they are all RFL members and they are all in the same game of trying to improve their playing rosters and attract the fans.

 

Lets say Leigh have found £2,000,000 a year for a few years. That then puts them into the Featherstone Salford and Huddersfield bracket. They will have the money to spend full salary cap like Huddersfield found 10 or more years ago. 

 

It doesn't then make them an instant pick for the top division, they have to get in the queue behind clubs who not only can spend full cap, but can successfully promote local amateur RL, develop professional players from that amateur game and attract 10-15,000 fans to the game.

 

In your world you seem to dream (dreams are fair enough) of Leigh replacing Wigan, York replacing Hull, Keighley replace Bradford, Sheffield replace Leeds, Swinton replace Saints, Rochdale replace Warrington all because they have someone prepared to just bankroll all the massive losses these clubs will have playing in Superleague.

 

The game will be £200,000,000 in debt and rising, tens of thousands less fans will be watching the game because their clubs have been relegated, whilst new fans won't number the same (see Huddersfield/ Bradford), interest in the amateur game will decline in the big centers of amateur RL, but it won't be replaced by equivalent growth in the small towns.

 

I think our game has to try to be something more than one great big charity case?

Edited January 12, 2014 by The Parksider

[The Parksider]

Let's keep the same old, same old members of the SL and not introduce and different or fresh names to the mix, nor let the  new investors have a piece of the action.

 

In the end Huddersfield had to go in 2001, after coming bottom of Superleague for the fourth consecutive time flatlining on 3,000+ crowds. They had a largely "bought in" their team with plenty of Aussies, but no real junior development system.

 

They became a "Championship club" but they had the trump card of a very rich "Investor".

 

What did this man invest in?? Ten years on do we see 15,000 crowds in Huddersfield? Do we see a production line of talent for the game from a well funded and well staffed academy??

 

Does the game not need to produce numbers of quality home grown players so we can have a good International side? Does it no need to attract numbers of fans so we can fill stadiums for our showpiece club and international events?

 

This money isn't investment, it's self aggrandisment. What was the first thing Mr. Koukash invested in? Development officers for Manchester/Salford?? Reopening the Salford academy and staffing it with the best?? Maybe, but that may be real investment.

 

If I invest £Millions into Hunslet will that increase player production and fan generation in Leeds, or will every pound I put in be a blow to Leeds and muck up their fantastic solid progress?? Had Neil Hudgell put £500K a year into Hull.F.C. where may they be now??

 

Throwing millions at small clubs isn't "Investment" and when you work it through it can undo a lot of real investment and hard work, and be very damaging to the game.

[JohnM]

I see that Leigh, who are constantly pilloried for their one and only poor season in SL, have attracted a multi million pound company as a sponsor...

A company with a multi million turnover? Or a donation of multi million in Leigh Rlfc? In 2013/4 quite small local companies would achieve "multi million turnover. Id expect the local Ford franchise to beat that, or local caravan dealer...or ...

Edited January 12, 2014 by JohnM

[Ackroman]

Whatever. P&R is happening. Come back in 5 years with the facts about P&R from 2014 onwards.

[gingerjon]

I see that Leigh, who are constantly pilloried for their one and only poor season in SL, have attracted a multi million pound company as a sponsor and doubled their season ticket sales according to tw o recent posts on the board whilst several SL clubs are well down on their season ticket sales.

Never mind though. This can't all be true because it's a fact that nobody or no company in their right mind would put money into a championship side.

So that's Leigh, Featherstone and Halifax who have all found investors or sponsors, all in decent grounds, whilst London are playing in a mini ground with diminished crowds, Wakefield and Bradford are having money troubles.

But p and r is not a good idea. Let's not give any opportunity to those improving clubs. Let's make sure all the struggling incumbents are under no pressure to improve and justify their hold on a SL spot.

Sky would much rather show London v Catalans on British TV than a repeat of the Featherstone v Wigan or Halifax v Huddersfield derby. Let's keep the same old, same old members of the SL and not introduce and different or fresh names to the mix, nor let the n ew investors have a piece of the action.

 

I thought clubs couldn't get investment without P&R (etc etc, for about 50 more pages).

[a.n Other]

Only a matter of time before a Halifax fan took offence.

HALIFAX - business plan "Inadequate" "speculative" "insufficient" "below standard"

WAKEFIELD - "financial governance poor"

BRADFORD - "faces challenges"

SALFORD - "ambitious targets"

None of the three clubs you mention had "robust plans" at all. Wakey had gone bust, Bradford had Odsal as a millstone around their neck and Salford were only admitted because the RFL gave them a chance as they had built a new ground.

With deepest respect petty jealousies don't advance the argument and the argument IMVHO is that when they tried to select the best 14 Superleague clubs for this round of licensing there were only four real Superleague clubs.

The rest were inadequate some more than others.

Bradford collapsed in SL and ended up with an 8,500 crowd

Wakefield Collapsed in SL and ended up with an 8,172 crowd

Salford fell apart in SL and ended up with an 3,178 crowd

Halifax bombed in SL and ended up with a 2,977 crowd.

It just does not follow that a Superleague clubs failure to compete with clubs on a £6,000,000 turnover makes them more useless than clubs who can't even manage a £600K turnover.

No offence taken in your post. Why would you think it would have been?

[Griff]

In the end Huddersfield had to go in 2001, after coming bottom of Superleague for the fourth consecutive time flatlining on 3,000+ crowds. They had a largely "bought in" their team with plenty of Aussies, but no real junior development system.

 

They became a "Championship club" but they had the trump card of a very rich "Investor".

 

What did this man invest in?? Ten years on do we see 15,000 crowds in Huddersfield? Do we see a production line of talent for the game from a well funded and well staffed academy??

 

Does the game not need to produce numbers of quality home grown players so we can have a good International side? Does it no need to attract numbers of fans so we can fill stadiums for our showpiece club and international events?

 

This money isn't investment, it's self aggrandisment. What was the first thing Mr. Koukash invested in? Development officers for Manchester/Salford?? Reopening the Salford academy and staffing it with the best?? Maybe, but that may be real investment.

 

If I invest £Millions into Hunslet will that increase player production and fan generation in Leeds, or will every pound I put in be a blow to Leeds and muck up their fantastic solid progress?? Had Neil Hudgell put £500K a year into Hull.F.C. where may they be now??

 

Throwing millions at small clubs isn't "Investment" and when you work it through it can undo a lot of real investment and hard work, and be very damaging to the game.

 

Great post.  I hate the word "investor" as applied to a sports club.

[LordCharles]

Just reading the comments about Leigh and put this into perspective should they gain entry into super league.

Their home games against Wigan, St Helens, Warrington and Leeds would be sold out in advance without question.

Games against Salford, Hull, Widnes and Huddersfield I would estimate would generate crowds of at least 7k

And even if the remaining games against Bradford, Castleford, Wakey, Hull KR and Catalan only generate 5k crowds their season average at home would definitely be over 7k IMHO but more than likely pushing past 8k.

Their facilities are first class and generate a good atmosphere on game day and another benefit they would bring to SL is that as fans they travel in good numbers.

I could think of more than one existing SL club that cannot currently offer that sort of return for their inclusion into SL.

[Griff]

Just reading the comments about Leigh and put this into perspective should they gain entry into super league.

Their home games against Wigan, St Helens, Warrington and Leeds would be sold out in advance without question.

 

 

You may not question it, but many would.

[gingerjon]

Their home games against Wigan, St Helens, Warrington and Leeds would be sold out in advance without question.

 

So that would be three guaranteed gates of 11,000?

 

Absolutely, nailed on, guaranteed.

 

So, I'll question it because it hasn't happened yet.

 

Of course, under 3x8 they won't be playing any of those sides.

[LordCharles]

You may not question it, but many would.

They will comfortably get 11k for the 4 games I mention......anybody who said they knew Leigh and suggests they wouldn't doesn't really know the heritage and passion within the town for RL, particularly against the clubs I mention especially Wigan.

As Stuart Raper once said during an interview after a challenge cup tie at Hilton Park between Leigh and Wigan.

"Jeez.......I haven't experienced anything like that before....the atmosphere was tribal"

[Griff]

So that would be three guaranteed gates of 11,000?

 

Absolutely, nailed on, guaranteed.

 

So, I'll question it because it hasn't happened yet.

 

Of course, under 3x8 they won't be playing any of those sides.

 

Given that the poster specified $uperleague, yeah, they would.

[DAZROVER1985]

Just reading the comments about Leigh and put this into perspective should they gain entry into super league.

Their home games against Wigan, St Helens, Warrington and Leeds would be sold out in advance without question.

Games against Salford, Hull, Widnes and Huddersfield I would estimate would generate crowds of at least 7k

And even if the remaining games against Bradford, Castleford, Wakey, Hull KR and Catalan only generate 5k crowds their season average at home would definitely be over 7k IMHO but more than likely pushing past 8k.

Their facilities are first class and generate a good atmosphere on game day and another benefit they would bring to SL is that as fans they travel in good numbers.

I could think of more than one existing SL club that cannot currently offer that sort of return for their inclusion into SL.

what did they average last time in super league and did any of the above games sell out?