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John Drake

Labour leadership contest

Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?

    • Andy Burnham
      13
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      14
    • Liz Kendall
      7
    • I would never vote Labour
      8
  2. 2. Did you vote Labour in the 2015 General Election?

    • Yes
      26
    • No
      29
  3. 3. Do you have a vote in the Labour leadership election?

    • Yes
      11
    • No
      44
  4. 4. Who would you vote for in the Labour leadership election?

    • Andy Burnham
      15
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      18
    • Liz Kendall
      9


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You are completely missing what's happening John. The attacks are strengthening the Corbyn position, not weakening it. Newspapers are increasingly irrelevant. Social media is transforming politics. It is providing the delivery of information, the power to counter misinformation, the means of collective action, the capacity for organising real grass roots activity. The Sun has just been forced to do an about face on its front page. Cameron has been shamed into changing policy (and will be further shamed).

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You are completely missing what's happening John. The attacks are strengthening the Corbyn position, not weakening it. Newspapers are increasingly irrelevant. Social media is transforming politics. It is providing the delivery of information, the power to counter misinformation, the means of collective action, the capacity for organising real grass roots activity. The Sun has just been forced to do an about face on its front page. Cameron has been shamed into changing policy (and will be further shamed).

How frequently does Murdoch fail to get his candidate?  Newspapers are not as powerful as they were, but imagine what they still persuaded people not to vaccinate their babies.  

Corbyn's strength is being bolstered when it comes to protesting against the status quo and giving heart to the disillusioned of the left.  That makes him the left wing equivalent of Donald Trump.  He might have great policies, but they will not be reported.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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You are completely missing what's happening John. The attacks are strengthening the Corbyn position, not weakening it. Newspapers are increasingly irrelevant. Social media is transforming politics. It is providing the delivery of information, the power to counter misinformation, the means of collective action, the capacity for organising real grass roots activity. The Sun has just been forced to do an about face on its front page. Cameron has been shamed into changing policy (and will be further shamed).

And you're missing it as well.  Corbyn is a polariser, he strengthens the opinion of those both for and against him but does little for those who are caught in the middle.

 

Some of his hard-line views are just utterly absurd and mean that someone like me who naturally would support most of his ideas is now utterly convinced he'd do a Clegg to the Labour Party.  For example, if he had a policy that said we'd never send troops outside of Britain again then I wouldn't be voting Labour in the next general election.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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And you're missing it as well. Corbyn is a polariser, he strengthens the opinion of those both for and against him but does little for those who are caught in the middle.

Some of his hard-line views are just utterly absurd and mean that someone like me who naturally would support most of his ideas is now utterly convinced he'd do a Clegg to the Labour Party. For example, if he had a policy that said we'd never send troops outside of Britain again then I wouldn't be voting Labour in the next general election.

80% of Sky News viewers Craig. Hardly a natural Corbyn audience is it.

As for the troops issue, he has said that we shouldn't engage in wars without a vote of the UN. What's wrong with that?

Moreover, Corbyn is outlining his policy beliefs, he is not issuing policy by dictate. It's all up for debate. The party conference will be reinstated as the ultimate authority on policy. It's called democracy. It was the lack of that democracy that forced people like me out.

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80% of Sky News viewers Craig.

You mean 80% of Sky News viewers who were polled/who voted.  Nobody asked me about Corbyn from Sky News and I didn't complete any vote on Corbyn for Sky News.  I watch Sky News regularly.

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80% of Sky News viewers Craig. Hardly a natural Corbyn audience is it.

As for the troops issue, he has said that we shouldn't engage in wars without a vote of the UN. What's wrong with that?

Moreover, Corbyn is outlining his policy beliefs, he is not issuing policy by dictate. It's all up for debate. The party conference will be reinstated as the ultimate authority on policy. It's called democracy. It was the lack of that democracy that forced people like me out.

8000 self-selecting viewers, it's not an impartially selected viewing pool.  For example, how many times have we seen people post things on here saying "vote for me for this prize because I'm one of you" and we've done it.

 

So, if Russia fully invaded Poland, say, we'd sit back and do nothing?  Russia has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and a veto, even on their own transgressions.  We're members of NATO and that treaty obliges us to defend our allies if they're attacked but I guarantee that that would not get a UN resolution to permit armed conflict.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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8000 self-selecting viewers, it's not an impartially selected viewing pool. For example, how many times have we seen people post things on here saying "vote for me for this prize because I'm one of you" and we've done it.

So, if Russia fully invaded Poland, say, we'd sit back and do nothing? Russia has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and a veto, even on their own transgressions. We're members of NATO and that treaty obliges us to defend our allies if they're attacked but I guarantee that that would not get a UN resolution to permit armed conflict.

Craig, I'm a trained social science researcher. Of course it's not a statistically sound sample. However, i see no reason to believe that pro-Corbyn viewers are more likely to self select than those opposed to Corbyn. Indeed, i would expect it to be fairly polarised. However, of the 10,000 viewers able to use the Sky Pulse technology 80% of them went for Corbyn.

As for your last para, i repeat, it's all up for discussion and democratic decision. I know it's difficult to believe that a leader might want to allow dissent and differing points of view but that's democracy for you. I know we've not been used to it but it's what's on offer from a JC led Labour Party.

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You are completely missing what's happening John. The attacks are strengthening the Corbyn position, not weakening it. Newspapers are increasingly irrelevant. Social media is transforming politics. It is providing the delivery of information, the power to counter misinformation, the means of collective action, the capacity for organising real grass roots activity. The Sun has just been forced to do an about face on its front page. Cameron has been shamed into changing policy (and will be further shamed).

 

According to my Twitter feed, Labour were on course to win the last election easy peasy. I almost started to believe it myself at one point. Then the real votes got counted and we got thumped. Social media distorts people's perceptions of reality.

 

What really changed Cameron's policy on refugees was the image of a dead child on a beach, published on the front page of a traditional print newspaper. Do not underestimate their continued influence.


.

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Craig, I'm a trained social science researcher. Of course it's not a statistically sound sample. However, i see no reason to believe that pro-Corbyn viewers are more likely to self select than those opposed to Corbyn. Indeed, i would expect it to be fairly polarised. However, of the 10,000 viewers able to use the Sky Pulse technology 80% of them went for Corbyn.

As for your last para, i repeat, it's all up for discussion and democratic decision. I know it's difficult to believe that a leader might want to allow dissent and differing points of view but that's democracy for you. I know we've not been used to it but it's what's on offer from a JC led Labour Party.

 

Let's deal with this Sky News poll, shall we. It's meaningless. As meaningless as when someone wins the X Factor with millions of telephone votes but their subsequent musical career disappears without trace. As meaningless as when the same polls report the public being in favour of hanging and flogging and suchlike, as they often do. I doubt you'd believe in them then, so why now? Plus, you're missing the obvious point that lots of people who can't stand the Labour Party are desperate for it to be saddled with Jeremy Corbyn as its leader, because it will gift them undreamed of political advantages in the years ahead, and they can press a button on their Sky remote to say what a jolly good fellow he is too.

 

Meanwhile, in the real world, where the other three candidates live and understand how voters outside the Labour Party will actually vote...

 

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. One minute Jeremy has all the best policies, the next minute they're not actually policies at all, just proposals up for discussion! Which is it to be?

 

if it is the latter, what happens when the party decides on a policy that Jeremy personally doesn't like? Does he troop off in a huff and vote against it, as he has been free to do as a backbencher all these years, and make himself look weak and ridiculous as a leader protesting against his own party, or does he finally get around to accepting the role of leadership also requires compromise? At which point, his halo will crumble into dust for many of his more fanatical followers.


.

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Social media (twitter especially) operates in self selecting bubbles.  The SNP found this out last year.  Many YES supporters thought they were a shoe in due to the number of pro-yes comments they saw. 

 

It was highlighted again at the election.  You tend to follow people because you like what they say.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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You are completely missing what's happening John. The attacks are strengthening the Corbyn position, not weakening it.

Internally in the Labour party members maybe but not outside the party and certainly not nationally.

 

He's gaining support from the left but alienating centre ground labour voters (which are certainly the majority) and making himself totally unelectable to non-labour voters from the last election (which they need to win back).


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Are "LeftUnity" members allowed to vote in this? 

 

If so, how many will do so?

 

Can you be in "left Unity"  and in the Labour Party?


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Are "LeftUnity" members allowed to vote in this?

If so, how many will do so?

Can you be in "left Unity" and in the Labour Party?

No Left Unity members have a vote. However, LU will cease to exist if Corbyn wins because many will return to the real Labour Party. I am anticipating resigning from LU next Saturday and rejoining the LP. Happy days!

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...as another turkey votes for Christmas!!   :bye:

Edited by JohnM

Four legs good - two legs bad

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Common contractions:

 

Scottish National Party = ScotsNats

Liberal Democrat Party = LibDems

Left Unity = Lunity


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police

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No Left Unity members have a vote. However, LU will cease to exist if Corbyn wins because many will return to the real Labour Party. I am anticipating resigning from LU next Saturday and rejoining the LP. Happy days!

I'd keep hold of that membership if I were you. Corbyn will be gone before the next election.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Ok, so you ignore all the points I made in my post, and respond instead with a link to a newspaper article that makes some pretty weak arguments against Andy Burnham.

 

Look, I'm not Burnham's campaign manager. Unlike yourself with Jeremy Corbyn, I don't feel the need to defend his every utterance from criticism. He's a politician, not the messiah. I'm not looking for infallibility, just electability.

 

I still think Burnham's the best of the candidates on offer here, primarily the one with the best chance of appealing beyond the narrow confines of the Labour Party membership to the electorate beyond, while at the same time being the best qualified to hold the party together. Corbyn has zero chance of achieving either of those outcomes.

 

I don't think that article proves the point it is attempting to make.


.

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No Left Unity members have a vote. However, LU will cease to exist if Corbyn wins because many will return to the real Labour Party. I am anticipating resigning from LU next Saturday and rejoining the LP. Happy days!

 

Your loyalty is truly inspiring.

 

Remind us, how many votes did Left Unity win at the last General Election?


.

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Remind us, how many votes did Left Unity win at the last General Election?

How many votes does any party get when It's 2 years old?

By the way, is it ok for forum moderators to take a thread off topic? Just asking.

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How many votes does any party get when It's 2 years old?

By the way, is it ok for forum moderators to take a thread off topic? Just asking.

 

The SDP got millions in 1983 after being formed in 1981.

 

So, again, how many did Left Unity get?

 

And this isn't off topic. You're the one who said you'll leave your current political party to join Labour if Jeremy Corbyn is elected leader next Saturday. I'm merely wondering what the benefit of that might be to the Labour Party.


.

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The SDP got millions in 1983 after being formed in 1981.

So, again, how many did Left Unity get?

And this isn't off topic. You're the one who said you'll leave your current political party to join Labour if Jeremy Corbyn is elected leader next Saturday. I'm merely wondering what the benefit of that might be to the Labour Party.

The SDP had existing elected MPs. Apples and oranges.

Left Unity was not brought up by me but by JohnM asking whether LU members have a vote in the Labour leadership contest. We don't.

What benefit will I be to the Labour Party? Well, i was previously elected to many positions in the party, so maybe I'll try that again. I've been politically active since i was 12 and joined the Labour Party at 15. I won't be thinking that political activity is about having sycophantic selfies looking like a love sick schoolgirl next to Andy Wandy Burnham.

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The SDP had existing elected MPs. Apples and oranges.

Left Unity was not brought up by me but by JohnM asking whether LU members have a vote in the Labour leadership contest. We don't.

What benefit will I be to the Labour Party? Well, i was previously elected to many positions in the party, so maybe I'll try that again. I've been politically active since i was 12 and joined the Labour Party at 15. I won't be thinking that political activity is about having sycophantic selfies looking like a love sick schoolgirl next to Andy Wandy Burnham.

 

Pffft you'd be drawn in by his dreamy eyes.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Pffft you'd be drawn in by his dreamy eyes.

You're right John has lovely eyes! Andy's not so much, they're always darting around looking for another direction to follow.

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And you're missing it as well.  Corbyn is a polariser, he strengthens the opinion of those both for and against him but does little for those who are caught in the middle.

 

Some of his hard-line views are just utterly absurd and mean that someone like me who naturally would support most of his ideas is now utterly convinced he'd do a Clegg to the Labour Party.  For example, if he had a policy that said we'd never send troops outside of Britain again then I wouldn't be voting Labour in the next general election.

You've changed your tune

Sure you was a JC lover/voter earlier in this thread

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