Brexit - the negative thread

[Bob8]

If that ever comes to pass, you will reap the benefit of our mistake. Whether you like it or not you are going to be part of it. For want of a better analogy I was against (sweary words against) all of the privatisation that went on in the eighties. I had to learn to deal with it, didn't like it but dealt with it. I do get the feeling that remainers are like shareholders (past, present or future) and those of us wanting out are anti privatisation. I could be well off target but that is the feeling I get.

I have given this a lot of thought.

 

The comparison I can see is that the Remain campaign frequently put the economy as the main thing rather than concerning itself with the well being of people.  Therefore, I can see some comparison to people who would have the country burn if it meant increased profit for the city.  I can also see that people who perhaps would have been better off in the pre-Thatcher 1970's tended to vote Leave.

 

However, that is a slender comparison.  Leading the Leave campaign we had Farage, Johnson and Gove, all of whom I imagine would delight in being compared to Thatcher.  While many traditional anti-Thatcher areas voted Leave (such as St Helens and Wigan), many of them also voted Remain (Scotland, Liverpool).

 

Essentially, I do not think the divide was across one side of people who saw a virtue in burning the other side for fuel.  So, I must, to a certain extent, disagree with your analysis.

[RidingPie]

I am a Remainer. 

 

If we went back to the 1970's, everyone would be financially worse off, but some people would be better off overall, as in having a job that paid their bills.  That is something people can vote for and be willing to be worse off for.

 

Smaller economy, fewer immigrants, domestic focus, some can find that appealing.

 

I thought I'd read that you were somewhere on the thread, although it doesn't change the point. It tends to be the people with less who get hit more in recessions!

 

Interestingly I had a similar chat with my Dad to the one you had with yours. His point was that a recession was "a price worth paying" for the return of our sovereignty (interestingly he couldn't quantify how much sovereignty we'd lost or what it actually meant). I suggested that people who lost their jobs and means of supporting their family might not agree since he retired 5 years ago and his job wasn't at risk. Clearly the lack of interest on his savings isn't going to overjoy him, but thats another matter.

[RidingPie]

Another cloud... fund managers are ditching shares in UK companies.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/fund-managers-to-ditch-uk-holdings-over-brexit-0ll3fl230

 

while not a bad thing in itself as the market is being bouyed by the BoE stimulus package it does make me worry a crash might be on the horizon if it goes on too long. That said the experts are more likely to see that point than me.

[Saint Toppy]

1. So we could, at our discretion, accept an immigration policy very similar to the one that currently exists?

2. Technically we already have discretionary control over lawmaking as Westminster has to ratify EU law.

3. We could arrange a discretionary contribution very similar to the one we make now.

Theoretically we could do all that and still claim to have left the EU.

None of those things are currently discretionary;

1 - The only immigration discretion we have is over non-EU citizens. We can't restrict immigration for any EU citizen. 

2 - There are hundreds of EU rules passed which are done by EU parliamentary majority vote and which our courts can not overturn if we don't agree with them

3 - Our EU contributions aren't discretionary, we can't decide one year not to pay, we are legally obliged to pay

[Griff9of13]

Brexit trade deals: the gruelling challenge of taking back control

 

 

Brexit means Brexit is the slogan of Theresa May’s new government, but more than a month after the seismic decision to leave the EU, no one knows what Brexit means. Only one thing is sure - unpicking Britain’s membership will be a monumental task requiring years of arduous and painstaking negotiations.

 

“I just can’t imagine a more complicated and more difficult issue to take forward,” said Andrew Hood, a senior director at the Dechert law firm and a former legal adviser to David Cameron. “People at the heart of government were sitting down a week after the Brexit decision with an entirely blank sheet of paper.”

 

[Griff9of13]

Oh dear: Brexit hits public finances as government rakes in almost a BILLION less than expected

[GURNER]

Oh dear: Brexit hits public finances as government rakes in almost a BILLION less than expected

Here's a good one for you lot. Talking to someone that was in whitehall this week, making sense of the inland revenue position in dealing with brexit. Nobody has a clue but an awful lot of IR resources have been ploughed into sorting it. Given that Bob Dimond was brought in to sort the IR out, is it any wonder. Not sure if it's a positive or negative but it's a given

[Griff9of13]

This may be the issue that finally gets all the brexiteers to change their minds: The price of your bacon butty is set to soar - and it's all Brexit's fault 

[Saint Toppy]

This may be the issue that finally gets all the brexiteers to change their minds: The price of your bacon butty is set to soar - and it's all Brexit's fault 

Typical trash from a rag paper.

Oooh the price of your bacon butty is going up, so what, its hardly one of life's essentials is it. Anything to distract from the fact that this is a good news story because of the surge in exports, which is actually a boost to the UK economy.

[Griff9of13]

Typical trash from a rag paper.

Oooh the price of your bacon butty is going up, so what, its hardly one of life's essentials is it. Anything to distract from the fact that this is a good news story because of the surge in exports, which is actually a boost to the UK economy.

Good grief, talk about sense of humour bypass. It was a little tongue in cheek article to lighten the mood a little, hence the at the end.

[ckn]

This may be the issue that finally gets all the brexiteers to change their minds: The price of your bacon butty is set to soar - and it's all Brexit's fault 

I'll give you my bacon butty when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.  It's nothing but retaliation from the Chinese, we dick them around on the nuclear power plant and they buy all our bacon.

 

(oh, and for those with a sense of humour failure, please take this as a statement that my post in no way means to offend, upset or over-sensitise poor Brexiters, it is a light-hearted comment)

[Griff9of13]

I'll give you my bacon butty when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. It's nothing but retaliation from the Chinese, we dick them around on the nuclear power plant and they buy all our bacon.

(oh, and for those with a sense of humour failure, please take this as a statement that my post in no way means to offend, upset or over-sensitise poor Brexiters, it is a light-hearted comment)

[Martyn Sadler]

Good grief, talk about sense of humour bypass. It was a little tongue in cheek article to lighten the mood a little, hence the at the end.

 

Given that Brexit - the negative thread - extends to only six pages, while Brexit - the positive thread - extends to 19 pages, you need to find a few more stories like that one from the Mirror to even up the score.

 

The Mirror doesn't seem to have noticed that the referendum has come and gone.

[Bedford Roughyed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37190357

 

So how long will it all take? Sir Andrew Cahn predicts it could be 2035 - yes, nearly 20 years from now - until satisfactory deals with the EU and other trading partners are done and dusted. By which time, the current Brexit Ministers will be in their seventies and eighties!

 

Longest prediction yet?

[Griff9of13]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37190357

Longest prediction yet?

Don't this belong on the positive thread? I mean, at that rate I could well be dead and buried before it's a done deal and I won't have to live with the consequences after all!

(Again, for the humourless brexiteers, this is a joke. You can tell I'm joking by the inclusion of the at the end).

[ckn]

No need for a vote in Parliament

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/theresa-may-will-trigger-brexit-negotiations-without-commons-vot/

[Griff9of13]

No need for a vote in Parliament

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/theresa-may-will-trigger-brexit-negotiations-without-commons-vot/

 

So much for "taking back control" and "greater democracy". Not that I believe that the result of the referendum to leave should be ignored. No, what I want is the deal (whatever that may prove to be) should receive the highest degree of scrutiny and be fought for every single step of the way. It's only by going through extensive scrutiny can we have any faith that we will get a good deal for the UK. That's why I support Owen Smith's idea of a second referendum to endorse any deal - we need all the checks and balances available before committing to anything that could, for the want of a "dotted i or crossed t" be so disastrous for the country. 

[Saint Toppy]

So much for "taking back control" and "greater democracy". Not that I believe that the result of the referendum to leave should be ignored. No, what I want is the deal (whatever that may prove to be) should receive the highest degree of scrutiny and be fought for every single step of the way. It's only by going through extensive scrutiny can we have any faith that we will get a good deal for the UK. That's why I support Owen Smith's idea of a second referendum to endorse any deal - we need all the checks and balances available before committing to anything that could, for the want of a "dotted i or crossed t" be so disastrous for the country.

Except your not scrutinising the deal are you, all your doing is wasting time and money on voting on our wish list. All we'll have before the A50 trigger is a starting point for our negotiations, not any sort of deal. There won't be a deal until we conclude our negotiations with the EU, and by then it's too late to have another vote because A50 will have been triggered and a date for leaving set anyway.

Can't you see how stupidly pointless Smith's idea is as it achieves absolutely nothing.

Ask the public what their priorities and wishes are, have cross party discussions on our starting position, but don't waste time and money on a meaningless vote.

[Billypop]

We have been inundated with negative media about the  EU and many people have swallowed it whole. 

 

How many times did the media apologise for the following misrepresentations?

 

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

 

I wasn't surprised at how often I have been challenged by an exiter about stuff that is refuted on that site. usually I don't argue too much, just ask them where they get their madcap ideas from, and increasingly it's from social media..

 

The link above would have been on the Remain website if any one of the organisers oi that campaign had any brains or had the sense to realise that the referendum was a real contest. So there are brainless, arrogant people on both sides.

[Saintslass]

Ask the public what their priorities and wishes are, have cross party discussions on our starting position, but don't waste time and money on a meaningless vote.

May has already said she's having not only cross party talks but also talks with NI, Wales and Scotland as well as she wants a whole UK approach but it is as you say: MPs cannot vote on the deal because by then Article 50 will have been triggered.

 

The MPs seem to forget that they passed the legislation for the referendum by a large majority.  I find it anti-democratic that they now want to block the outcome of that vote simply because they don't like it.  That sounds rather EU like actually: keep on having referenda until the 'right' outcome is reached.  I think MPs and others would be better served working with the government on achieving the best possible Brexit deal.

[Griff9of13]

May has already said she's having not only cross party talks but also talks with NI, Wales and Scotland as well as she wants a whole UK approach but it is as you say: MPs cannot vote on the deal because by then Article 50 will have been triggered.

The MPs seem to forget that they passed the legislation for the referendum by a large majority. I find it anti-democratic that they now want to block the outcome of that vote simply because they don't like it. That sounds rather EU like actually: keep on having referenda until the 'right' outcome is reached. I think MPs and others would be better served working with the government on achieving the best possible Brexit deal.

Wasn't that the leave plan if they lost? It was certainly Farage's.

[Griff9of13]

Meet the Swedish politician ready to play hardball with the UK on Brexit

"Cecilia Malmström, the EU trade commissioner, will take a hard line on new trade deals"

[henage]

In th real world , mates shellfish company has just landed a new order from France for seven tonnes of crab meat per month . Maybe the Swedish politician should stop playing hard ball and get into the real world .

[Saintslass]

Meet the Swedish politician ready to play hardball with the UK on Brexit

"Cecilia Malmström, the EU trade commissioner, will take a hard line on new trade deals"

Well, that's because we were thinking about lowering our corporation tax to make us more competitive post Brexit.  He's got a strop on about that. 

[Saintslass]

Wasn't that the leave plan if they lost? It was certainly Farage's.

I don't remember hearing anything about a second referendum or a vote in Parliament from anyone in the official Leave campaign group.  As for Farage, I didn't pay him much attention at all and so I've no idea what he said.