Brexit - the negative thread

[Bedford Roughyed]

I don't remember hearing anything about a second referendum or a vote in Parliament from anyone in the official Leave campaign group.  As for Farage, I didn't pay him much attention at all and so I've no idea what he said.

 

 

I must congratulate you on your skill at avoiding Farage during the campaign.  Oh and Dan Hannon.  Very fortunate indeed.

[Saintslass]

I must congratulate you on your skill at avoiding Farage during the campaign.  Oh and Dan Hannon.  Very fortunate indeed.

And as you know, I did avoid them both, pretty much.  But then I didn't listen to the debates on TV and I didn't follow him on Twitter or listen to any interviews from either of them.  So really it was perfectly possible to remain in an almost serene ignorance of what either of them said. 

[Liverpool Rover]

I don't remember hearing anything about a second referendum or a vote in Parliament from anyone in the official Leave campaign group. As for Farage, I didn't pay him much attention at all and so I've no idea what he said.

Farage said that a 52-48 win for remain would be grounds for a second referendum, but of course when it was 52-48 for leave the people had spoken and that was that.

[GURNER]

Any views on apple and how the irish situation and being in the eu works, given the latest dictat?

[Bedford Roughyed]

Any views on apple and how the irish situation and being in the eu works, given the latest dictat?

 

 

Was strange to see the Irish government saying that that didn't want £11billion.  

[Griff9of13]

Is an effective tax rate of < 4% good for one of the world's largest cooperations to be paying? Is it fair on other companies that the Irish government effectively paid Apple a £11bn bribe?

[Griff9of13]

Another excellent piece in the FT by David Allen Green: Brexit requires more than political will — it needs to be capable of happening

Since the referendum, strident expressions of political intent have been plentiful. Brexit means Brexit, and Brexit “shall” happen. Often the “shall” seems as if it is in bold and italicised block capitals. The assertion is made with confident nods and hard stares. Every few days a “senior Conservative” is quoted somewhere saying that Brexit is inevitable. If determination was sufficient for Brexit to happen, there could be no doubt of its certainty.

But declarations are shallow, however sincere. On the other side of the policy ledger —next to the ever-growing column headed “political will” — is an almost empty column headed “political capability”. For something to be marked on this side of the ledger requires something other than grand statements of political intent, regardless of font size or facial expression. Concrete things are needed instead.

[Saint Toppy]

The Apple tax issue could potentially be good for the UK. If our final deal involves access to the Single market it could well see companies like Apple shifting to the UK where they would be free from EU parliamentary interference but retain their market access. 

If I were May I'd be sending someone over to the US to start talks with these big companies

[Shadow]

The Apple tax issue could potentially be good for the UK. If our final deal involves access to the Single market it could well see companies like Apple shifting to the UK where they would be free from EU parliamentary interference but retain their market access.

If I were May I'd be sending someone over to the US to start talks with these big companies

If you genuinely believe the EU will allow us to act as a Tax haven for multinationals whilst allowing free access to the single market you are deluded. That's not to even start considering whether it's actually any benefit to us having big corporations basing their operations here and paying minimal taxes

[gingerjon]

If you genuinely believe the EU will allow us to act as a Tax haven for multinationals whilst allowing free access to the single market you are deluded. That's not to even start considering whether it's actually any benefit to us having big corporations basing their operations here and paying minimal taxes

We already give multinationals sweet tax deals (just not as sweet as the desperate Irish).

That will become harder if we don't retain full access to the single market.

[GeordieSaint]

We already give multinationals sweet tax deals (just not as sweet as the desperate Irish).

 

What real benefit did the Irish get out of such a deal?

[gingerjon]

What real benefit did the Irish get out of such a deal?

I can't see they got close to value for money!

[Saint Toppy]

If you genuinely believe the EU will allow us to act as a Tax haven for multinationals whilst allowing free access to the single market you are deluded. That's not to even start considering whether it's actually any benefit to us having big corporations basing their operations here and paying minimal taxes

Deluded am I - The EU conveniently ignores the Dutch as being the facilitator for tax evasion. Companies can currently declare pretty much all their EU generated profits in Holland and then move the lot into an offshore tax haven without incurring any taxes or penalties on those profits. All they have to pay is a nominal fee to the Dutch company facilitating the transfer. Every other EU country has a tax rate on profit transfers that is higher than the business tax they would normally pay.

 

Having these giant corporations like Apple, Google, Amazon etc. based here employing people and paying minimal profits tax is still preferable to them being based elsewhere in the EU and not employing people here and paying no profits tax.

 

The TTIP is dead in the water and we should be taking advantage of that as much as possible. The US is already the single biggest investor in the UK and we should be making ourselves as attractive as possible to these giant corporations in readiness for Brexit.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/705445/Apple-tax-European-Union-Tim-Cook-Theresa-May-Brexit?_ga=1.190165163.1292221778.1467104669

[Saint Toppy]

What real benefit did the Irish get out of such a deal?

The Irish already have the lowest rate of Corporation tax in the EU which is attractive but their other costs such as labour, offices etc. are far higher than most of the East European countries like Poland. Deals like this keep these big corporations in Ireland in preference to going to Eastern Europe.

[Martyn Sadler]

The TTIP is dead in the water and we should be taking advantage of that as much as possible. The US is already the single biggest investor in the UK and we should be making ourselves as attractive as possible to these giant corporations in readiness for Brexit.

 

 

German deputy Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel has said this week that TTIP has failed and the French minister for foreign trade, Matthias Fekl, has demanded an end to talks with the US over TTIP.

 

Although Obama told us that the UK would be at the back of the queue for agreeing a trade deal with the USA, and in so doing probably pushed a lot of voters into the Brexit camp, it now wouldn't be too surprising if the UK pulled off an agreement with the USA before the EU manages it.

 

Trying to represent 28 nations (or, in future, 27) in trade talks is unwieldy if not impossible in some cases.

[ckn]

What real benefit did the Irish get out of such a deal?

Jobs, prestige, sales taxes, employment taxes, lower unemployment statistics (with attributed benefit costs) and so on.  It isn't a massive earner for the Irish government but it got the jobs there, it got secondary employment for other suppliers and it just looks good having major companies decide to base themselves there.

 

 

Was strange to see the Irish government saying that that didn't want £11billion.  

They're trying to play nicely with the US on this.  The EU has not just picked a fight with Apple and the other major US companies in the EU but with the US government.  International taxation laws are quite clear that €1 of tax paid here is €1 that doesn't have to be paid in the US HQ.  The line is perfectly straight that the €14.5bn the EU is demanding is paid to Ireland is €14.5bn less that the US government will get in taxes this year.

 

Ireland depends on these major multinationals basing themselves there to keep their economy afloat and people in employment, if they become just another place for an HQ then the Eastern European countries suddenly become far more enticing as an EU HQ.

[Saint Toppy]

Jobs, prestige, sales taxes, employment taxes, lower unemployment statistics (with attributed benefit costs) and so on.  It isn't a massive earner for the Irish government but it got the jobs there, it got secondary employment for other suppliers and it just looks good having major companies decide to base themselves there.

 

 

They're trying to play nicely with the US on this.  The EU has not just picked a fight with Apple and the other major US companies in the EU but with the US government.  International taxation laws are quite clear that €1 of tax paid here is €1 that doesn't have to be paid in the US HQ.  The line is perfectly straight that the €14.5bn the EU is demanding is paid to Ireland is €14.5bn less that the US government will get in taxes this year.

 

Ireland depends on these major multinationals basing themselves there to keep their economy afloat and people in employment, if they become just another place for an HQ then the Eastern European countries suddenly become far more enticing as an EU HQ.

And these are all the kind of factors the government is going to have to consider when deciding what kind of relationship we want with the EU. They may decide that staying in the single market is worth paying for if it then attracts these multinational companies to set up their European HQ's in Britain and doing some sort of tax deals with them.

[ckn]

And these are all the kind of factors the government is going to have to consider when deciding what kind of relationship we want with the EU. They may decide that staying in the single market is worth paying for if it then attracts these multinational companies to set up their European HQ's in Britain and doing some sort of tax deals with them.

Absolutely.  It all looks like a George Osborne master cunning plan, albeit one with an unexpected hitch in the end.  Reduce corporation tax drastically from 2010 to now, effectively giving us the lowest corporation tax in the top 20 countries by some way, plus local access to the EU's biggest financial markets, plus access to the Commonwealth markets, special immigration rules in place for businesses and with the long-awaited EU swat-down of the Irish tax deals getting closer.  If only those pesky Brexit folk hadn't voted "Leave" then we'd be able to reel these companies into the UK right now.

 

I can imagine poor old George muttering away to himself like an unhappy Muttley from Dastardly and Muttley fame.

[Griff9of13]

I think the phrase they are searching for is "rock and a hard place", the choice of brexit: The Guardian view on Brexit priorities: Theresa May has made a fateful choice

[Saintslass]

I think the phrase they are searching for is "rock and a hard place", the choice of brexit: The Guardian view on Brexit priorities: Theresa May has made a fateful choice

You quoted the Guardian!  The Guardian was firmly remain throughout and has remained remain since. 

[gingerjon]

You quoted the Guardian!  The Guardian was firmly remain throughout and has remained remain since. 

 

And yet there is nothing in the article about remain at all.

 

It's almost like you didn't read it.

[Griff9of13]

You quoted the Guardian!  The Guardian was firmly remain throughout and has remained remain since. 

 

Have you read it? What do you think?

 

I quote lots of different sources. I'm sure you have quoted the Guardian when it suits you, but I honestly can't be bothered trailing through your posts to prove that you do.

[Liverpool Rover]

I think the phrase they are searching for is "rock and a hard place", the choice of brexit: The Guardian view on Brexit priorities: Theresa May has made a fateful choice

I can imagine it going something like this

UK Government: We want to end freedom of movement and have restrictions on EU migration.

EU: You do know that it will affect UK citizens as well?

UK Government: THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!

[Martyn Sadler]

I think the phrase they are searching for is "rock and a hard place", the choice of brexit: The Guardian view on Brexit priorities: Theresa May has made a fateful choice

 

A slightly incoherent article, I thought.

 

The Guardian seems to be finding it hard to accept the result of the referendum.

 

Of course it's not alone in that.

[ckn]

A slightly incoherent article, I thought.

 

The Guardian seems to be finding it hard to accept the result of the referendum.

 

Of course it's not alone in that.

I voted Remain and I accept the result of the referendum.  What I don't accept though is widely different messages about what "Leave" means.  Either stick it to the City by leaving the single market or stick it to the people who want to seriously limit immigrants by going for the EU-lite approach that appeases the City.  No point pretending that there's a mutually compatible way of achieving both aims.  Until there's a definitive and realistic statement by the government of "here's the goal we're after and here's our vision of the future, depending on if we can negotiate it" then we're just going to be in the UKIP-friendly-fairyland of pretending we'll get everything our way while the EU will just roll over and give it to us forever.

 

I wish they'd just tell us which way they want us to go so we can brace ourselves appropriately.