Brexit - the negative thread

[Saintslass]

2 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

Well given the Tories got elected on a promise to remain in the single market, and that we have never had a referendum on single market membership, am I right in thinking that there is more evidence for the electorate wanting to remain in the single market than anything else (beyond of course, leaving the European Union)? 

You can't remain a member of the single market and control migration and all your own laws.  Leaving the EU cannot be done without leaving membership of the single market.  However, access to the single market is another thing entirely; all countries who do trade with EU countries have access to the single market.  I've no idea why people are getting in a flap about this.  I voted to leave the EU.  Given the 'four principles' bollokeys, that means no longer being a member of the single market.  Given that we cannot complete trade deals with countries external to the EU if we remain in the customs union then obviously leaving the EU also means leaving the customs union. 

However, the whole point of the two year negotiation period is to negotiate a new relationship with the EU, one that we will have once we have left membership of the EU.  That will entail negotiating a new access to the single market.

[Trojan]

9 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

You can't remain a member of the single market and control migration and all your own laws.  Leaving the EU cannot be done without leaving membership of the single market.  However, access to the single market is another thing entirely; all countries who do trade with EU countries have access to the single market.  I've no idea why people are getting in a flap about this.  I voted to leave the EU.  Given the 'four principles' bollokeys, that means no longer being a member of the single market.  Given that we cannot complete trade deals with countries external to the EU if we remain in the customs union then obviously leaving the EU also means leaving the customs union. 

However, the whole point of the two year negotiation period is to negotiate a new relationship with the EU, one that we will have once we have left membership of the EU.  That will entail negotiating a new access to the single market.

Just like that!  Tommy Cooper's been dead over thirty years!  Perhaps Bo-jo could wear a Fez!

[JohnM]

The country voted to leave the EU.

The single market is a cornerstone of the EU.

Thus, when we leave the EU, we will leave the single market.

Unless the EU decides it wants unfettered and tariff-free access to our market. 

 

 

[Griff9of13]

And, as per usual, Tory manifesto commitments are proved worthless.

[JohnM]

overridden by the referendum result.

[Padge]

28 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

And, as per usual, Tory manifesto commitments are proved worthless.

oh I don't know, they are comedy gold.

 

[shrek]

4 minutes ago, JohnM said:

overridden by the referendum result.

She can invoke Article 50 based on the referendum result,but  can she invoke Article 127?  Lets cut to the chase, I'm pretty sure none of us here know and will all post endlessly based on our leave/remain starting point and I'm also pretty sure that the likes of BOJO never bothered to read the first few pages of the document it appears in, let alone the penultimate page of a 16,000-word document that actually mentions it!

[Padge]

I accused David Cameron of being the most incompetent PM this country has ever had, it didn't take long for another Tory numbskull to take his crown.

 

[Saintslass]

2 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

I think you've misunderstood, these are not the same thing. The EU is a poltical union, the single market is not, which is why for example Norway is a member of the single market. You voted to leave the political union of the European Union. You did not vote to leave the single market. The Tories were elected on a manifesto policy of remaining in the single market, giving it a mandate. Given that our membership of the single market has a political mandate and all we have ever voted on since then is to leave the political union, to leave the single market is a direct contradiction of a policy that the Tories were elected on the basis of. It is undemocratic for Theresa May to go and ignore the wishes of the people who elected the Conservatives on the basis of them promising continued single market membership. 

If leaving the politician union cannot be done without also leaving the single market, maybe someone should tell the International Business Times as they seem to be severely misinformed in comparison to the posters on here http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-what-european-economic-area-1567881

I didn't misunderstand anything.  Norway wanted to be a member of the single market and so has to be subject to the four principles stuff.  We don't want to be subject to those four principles - which underpin EU membership - and so we can't be a member of the single market.  Norway has to allow freedom of movement of people, goods, etc in order to be a member of the single market and has also had to adopt all the directives that go along with that.  Norway has EU membership lite.  We voted for no EU membership.

 

[Saintslass]

50 minutes ago, shrek said:

She can invoke Article 50 based on the referendum result,but  can she invoke Article 127?  Lets cut to the chase, I'm pretty sure none of us here know and will all post endlessly based on our leave/remain starting point and I'm also pretty sure that the likes of BOJO never bothered to read the first few pages of the document it appears in, let alone the penultimate page of a 16,000-word document that actually mentions it!

We will find out because I'm sure someone somewhere will start legal action.  Legal actions are starting up all over the place.  People can't cope with democracy when its outcome doesn't fit with their wishes these days.

[Trojan]

43 minutes ago, Padge said:

I accused David Cameron of being the most incompetent PM this country has ever had, it didn't take long for another Tory numbskull to take his crown.

 

But the opposition have no one capable of pinning her down.  Corbyn must go before Labour disappears completely. 

[Trojan]

1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

We will find out because I'm sure someone somewhere will start legal action.  Legal actions are starting up all over the place.  People can't cope with democracy when its outcome doesn't fit with their wishes these days.

48% of those who voted, voted to stay.  Large numbers of those who voted leave were presumably misled by the £350m per week claim and the constant anti EU publicity put out by the Sun Telegraph and Mail over the years, much of which was lies.  Once the consequences of Brexit are seen in terms of increased prices, loss of employment etc I think many people will change their minds.  Then will be the time to demand another vote on the terms that have been offered, before its too late.

[Bob8]

20 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I didn't misunderstand anything.  Norway wanted to be a member of the single market and so has to be subject to the four principles stuff.  We don't want to be subject to those four principles - which underpin EU membership - and so we can't be a member of the single market.  Norway has to allow freedom of movement of people, goods, etc in order to be a member of the single market and has also had to adopt all the directives that go along with that.  Norway has EU membership lite.  We voted for no EU membership.

 

I agree.  The Norwegian model is a terrible one, they have to contribute, abide by EU rules and get nothing out.  Despite it being suggested as a wonderful option in the lead-up to the referendum.

[shrek]

29 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

We will find out because I'm sure someone somewhere will start legal action.  Legal actions are starting up all over the place.  People can't cope with democracy when its outcome doesn't fit with their wishes these days.

Whats wrong with legal action?  If its British judges ruling on British issues then I'd have thought you'd be made up.

[Bedford Roughyed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38534958

Quote

Across the European Economic Area (EEA) there are 145,000 UK expat pensioners registered, compared with 4,000 EEA pensioners registered to use the NHS.

 

[Trojan]

20 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I agree.  The Norwegian model is a terrible one, they have to contribute, abide by EU rules and get nothing out.  Despite it being suggested as a wonderful option in the lead-up to the referendum.

Norway is a very wealthy country.  The state kept the lion's share of their North Sea oil and gas revenues instead of doing what Lawson did, frittering them away in tax cuts for the well off.

[Padge]

40 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But the opposition have no one capable of pinning her down.  Corbyn must go before Labour disappears completely. 

 

That goes without saying, Corbyn has no chance of winning an election, he could go and ask Murdoch what policies he would want introduced under a Corbyn government, get the backing of the press and he would still lose.

 

[Bedford Roughyed]

[Bearman]

When the Court rules the issue has to be put to the House,  the House will "Democratically"  follow the peoples decision in the referendum. 

Whether or not that is truly democratic is another argument that will not take place where it matters one iota. 

I have no doubt the argument will take place in pubs and on here.  

[Griff9of13]

10 hours ago, JohnM said:

overridden by the referendum result.

I don't remember reading on the ballot paper that the result of this advisory referendum rendered any manifesto commitments made by the Tory party which helped them attain power null and void. Can you point out to me where it said that on the ballot paper?

In the lead up to the vote many leading leave campaigners, including those in government, are on record going to great lengths to reassure the public that voting leave didn't mean leaving the single market. Were they lying? How many people cast their votes believing them about staying in the single market? How many cast their votes believing them about the £350m to the NHS? Enough to alter the outcome?

[JohnM]

Brexit means brexit. ????????????????

[Bedford Roughyed]

39 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Brexit means brexit. ????????????????

But what colour John?  WHAT COLOUR!!!!!!

[gingerjon]

10 hours ago, shrek said:

Whats wrong with legal action?  If its British judges ruling on British issues then I'd have thought you'd be made up.

You'd think, wouldn't you?

It does seem that those shrieking loudest for sovereignty and control haven't the slightest idea what it actually looks like or understand it when they see it.

[gingerjon]

9 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

And this is before she opens her mouth tomorrow.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Cynics would say it was 'briefed' to the papers so the pound tanked before the speech not during it.  Throw in something not quite as 'bad' into the speech and she might even get a recovery during it.