Who Trusts Labour?

[cookey]

Isnt democracy a terrible thing.

 

A generic thread of some 80,000 postings,started over a year ago,hardly deals with the key current political question of who,if anyone,trusts Her Majesty's Opposition.

 

Strange that the hard left dont like it!

[gingerjon]

Similar to your Tory one,you seem quite keen on that one!!

 

I don't have a Tory one.

 

There's already a Labour one.

 

Perhaps instead of banging on about democracy and lefties you could show some courtesy and actually bother to read what's already here?

[Tommygilf]

Theresa May has been PM for three months, I think it's early days for such judgements. Already with her proposed return to the 11+ she has shown herself to be divisive. To me she has all the hallmarks of the Tory class warrior in the mould of Thatcher, but let's wait and see. As for writing Labour off, there were plenty ready to do that in 1983, but they came back, saw off the SDP (which is what the '87 election was really about) and thumped the Tories in '97. Again it's early days/

Thats still allowing for 20 years of tory government till at least 2030-35 as the labour party decides how left it is. Furthermore, in 1997 over 73% of voters were still voting Tory or Labour, whereas now this has fallen to 65% (in a low turnout too) in 2015. Arguably Labour managed to win in 97 due to a failed Tory government, a move to the centre and a core of support, rather than just one or the other.

The decline of loyalty to either main two political parties is evident not only with a far greater number of floating voters now in the electorate, but also through declining turnout. This affects labour more seriously, as there are far more threats to it than to the tories; it can't let the north of England, Wales or anywhere else become another Scotland.

[Trojan]

Thats still allowing for 20 years of tory government till at least 2030-35 as the labour party decides how left it is. Furthermore, in 1997 over 73% of voters were still voting Tory or Labour, whereas now this has fallen to 65% (in a low turnout too) in 2015. Arguably Labour managed to win in 97 due to a failed Tory government, a move to the centre and a core of support, rather than just one or the other.

The decline of loyalty to either main two political parties is evident not only with a far greater number of floating voters now in the electorate, but also through declining turnout. This affects labour more seriously, as there are far more threats to it than to the tories; it can't let the north of England, Wales or anywhere else become another Scotland.

It is obvious that in order to be rid of the Tories Labour are going to have to come to some accommodation with the Scots Nats.  How this will be achieved is beyond me, but change is what happens when you least expect it. 

Meanwhile, if we're discussing democracy, May's trying to duck a Parliamentary debate on the Brexit terms, and use of the royal prerogative to force it through is the very opposite of democracy.  We voted allegedly in the referendum to take control, not to hand it to someone who seems to think she's a dictator.   It seems to me that if there is one party we shouldn't trust at the moment it's the Tories.

[bowes]

Isnt democracy a terrible thing.

A generic thread of some 80,000 postings,started over a year ago,hardly deals with the key current political question of who,if anyone,trusts Her Majesty's Opposition.

Strange that the hard left dont like it!

Yeah I dont get why anyone would trust a terrorist supporting anti-Semite who is also grotesquely incompetent, spoke at an event organised by a rape cult and held a rally to condemn any attempts (beyond a placard and cup of tea) to prevent Aleppo being bombed to rubble

[Tommygilf]

It is obvious that in order to be rid of the Tories Labour are going to have to come to some accommodation with the Scots Nats. How this will be achieved is beyond me, but change is what happens when you least expect it.

Meanwhile, if we're discussing democracy, May's trying to duck a Parliamentary debate on the Brexit terms, and use of the royal prerogative to force it through is the very opposite of democracy. We voted allegedly in the referendum to take control, not to hand it to someone who seems to think she's a dictator. It seems to me that if there is one party we shouldn't trust at the moment it's the Tories.

An arrangement with the Scottish Nationalists is unlikely, mainly because its not in the SNPs interests to be in power anyhow. Nevermind that their main advances have been against labour and Tory government is their best chance of gaining what they want (be it home rule or independence), or that the Labour party would lose even more support if it aligned with the SNP.

I don't believe we were discussing democracy, we were discussing how the labour party is supposed to accrue more support without losing anymore. But for what its worth, perhaps May is defeating a last ditch attempt by an unrepresentative body to undemocratically influence the Brexit deal which she must make. Apparently more people trust the Tories than Labour to carry this out.

Its clearly a matter of perspective. I personally don't see whata debate over the Brexit deal will achieve, its clear we won't be in the single market under current EU laws based on the migration controls which you would think would be negotiated. So a 3/4 hour or even longer debate seems to be a waste of time; what would actually be the result? Would David Davis' position change? No. It'd be really nice for the remain MPs to have a talking shop berating the silly general public and Leave campaign for putting us in this predicament, but other than that it would achieve nothing.

[Trojan]

An arrangement with the Scottish Nationalists is unlikely, mainly because its not in the SNPs interests to be in power anyhow. Nevermind that their main advances have been against labour and Tory government is their best chance of gaining what they want (be it home rule or independence), or that the Labour party would lose even more support if it aligned with the SNP.

I don't believe we were discussing democracy, we were discussing how the labour party is supposed to accrue more support without losing anymore. But for what its worth, perhaps May is defeating a last ditch attempt by an unrepresentative body to undemocratically influence the Brexit deal which she must make. Apparently more people trust the Tories than Labour to carry this out.

Its clearly a matter of perspective. I personally don't see whata debate over the Brexit deal will achieve, its clear we won't be in the single market under current EU laws based on the migration controls which you would think would be negotiated. So a 3/4 hour or even longer debate seems to be a waste of time; what would actually be the result? Would David Davis' position change? No. It'd be really nice for the remain MPs to have a talking shop berating the silly general public and Leave campaign for putting us in this predicament, but other than that it would achieve nothing.

I'll tell you what the point is.  I believe there is a majority in parliament against what May wants to do.  As for an alliance with the Scot Nats, it ws on the table 18 months ago, and I believe should Labour show any signs of being able to perform better in England it would be on the table again.  Much as Blair's Iraq adventure disgusted me, I think he may be involved in  moves behind the scenes that will surprise us.

[Tommygilf]

I'll tell you what the point is. I believe there is a majority in parliament against what May wants to do. As for an alliance with the Scot Nats, it ws on the table 18 months ago, and I believe should Labour show any signs of being able to perform better in England it would be on the table again. Much as Blair's Iraq adventure disgusted me, I think he may be involved in moves behind the scenes that will surprise us.

Of course there is a majority against May; there is a (overwhelming) majority in parliament who despise the fact we're leaving the EU in the first place. I think it will be interesting to see how someone like Mary Creagh (a remainer) will address these issues considering her constituency of Wakefield voted 2:1 in favour of leaving. I somehow doubt she'll be all that representative but we shall see.

The SNP benefit directly by not being in power; to the extent that their basic message is Westminster doesn't listen. Even if an agreement was on the table (which it won't be), the sheer prospect was enough to earn a Tory majority last year. After everything, Tuition fees, the riots, public sector cuts, strikes, the Tories were still trusted by a majority of the population to govern instead of Labour.

As for Blair, I doubt he can get anywhere near the Labour party. The leadership and membership throughout the country are so against him he wouldn't have any authority. Nor for that matter would Mandleson

[Trojan]

Of course there is a majority against May; there is a (overwhelming) majority in parliament who despise the fact we're leaving the EU in the first place. I think it will be interesting to see how someone like Mary Creagh (a remainer) will address these issues considering her constituency of Wakefield voted 2:1 in favour of leaving. I somehow doubt she'll be all that representative but we shall see.

The SNP benefit directly by not being in power; to the extent that their basic message is Westminster doesn't listen. Even if an agreement was on the table (which it won't be), the sheer prospect was enough to earn a Tory majority last year. After everything, Tuition fees, the riots, public sector cuts, strikes, the Tories were still trusted by a majority of the population to govern instead of Labour.

As for Blair, I doubt he can get anywhere near the Labour party. The leadership and membership throughout the country are so against him he wouldn't have any authority. Nor for that matter would Mandleson

Who said anything about the "Labour Party"  I think there are probably enough dissatisfied MP's in both parties, plus the Lib/Dems, to cause May serious trouble.

As for the way the country voted, as Newsnight pointed out yesterday, we heard a lot from May last week about Brexit, but nothing about the financial premium promised by the Brexiters.  If there's no financial premium, and jobs start to go, as Brexit bites, then I reckon a lot of people who possibly are already experiencing regrets at what they did, are going to be very unhappy indeed.

[JohnM]

Theresa May has been PM for three months, I think it's early days for such judgements. Already with her proposed return to the 11+ she has shown herself to be divisive. To me she has all the hallmarks of the Tory class warrior in the mould of Thatcher, but let's wait and see. As for writing Labour off, there were plenty ready to do that in 1983, but they came back, saw off the SDP (which is what the '87 election was really about) and thumped the Tories in '97. Again it's early days/

If Labour takes the same attitude to the facts as you, then it's no wonder that no one trusts them.

[Tommygilf]

Who said anything about the "Labour Party" I think there are probably enough dissatisfied MP's in both parties, plus the Lib/Dems, to cause May serious trouble.

As for the way the country voted, as Newsnight pointed out yesterday, we heard a lot from May last week about Brexit, but nothing about the financial premium promised by the Brexiters. If there's no financial premium, and jobs start to go, as Brexit bites, then I reckon a lot of people who possibly are already experiencing regrets at what they did, are going to be very unhappy indeed.

(A) this thread is about who trusts Labour

( I could have picked any MP, so how about Danny Kinahan UUP MP for South Antrim, which voted leave, despite the UUP position being otherwise.

© this issue was removed from the hands of the MPs by themselves as they felt unable to give an accurate representation of the public view. The referendum supercedes the politicians own "dissatisfaction".

On Brexit, clearly despite all the threat of Brexit "biting" and poverty striking the UK, despite the knowledge that the security the EU offered economically would be lost threatening jobs in various sectors up and down the country, despite "EU funding" being attributed to building projects in the poorest communities, despite all this, the majority of people voted to leave. They chose all that uncertainty, all the risk, over the certainty of the meaning of EU membership.

But I suppose it serves them right.

[John Drake]

Oh gawd, it's bad enough that this thread is already duplicating the Corbyn/Labour thread, but please don't turn it into another Brexit thread n'all, when there are two of those going already!!

[Trojan]

If Labour takes the same attitude to the facts as you, then it's no wonder that no one trusts them.

I must have got it from you John

[cookey]

The latest polls demonstrate that the level of trust in the Labour Party continues to decline.

 

Con         42% (+3)

Lab          28% (-2)

UKIP        11% (-2)

LDem        9%(+1)

Green       3%(  -)

YouGov.

 

It's even worse when it comes to who would be the better Prime Minister,with only 18% giving their backing to Corbyn.

 

Can it get any worse?

[gingerjon]

 

Can it get any worse?

 

You could post again?

[bowes]

The latest polls demonstrate that the level of trust in the Labour Party continues to decline.

Con 42% (+3)

Lab 28% (-2)

UKIP 11% (-2)

LDem 9%(+1)

Green 3%( -)

YouGov.

It's even worse when it comes to who would be the better Prime Minister,with only 18% giving their backing to Corbyn.

Can it get any worse?

Yes and it will. If Corbyn is still lease in 2020 then Labour will be on around 15%. A lot of his previously most enthusiastic supporters are raising questions now after his stance of wanting to let Russia bomb Aleppo to rubble and his openly speaking at an event organised by a rape cult. Appointing by far the worst shadow Home Secretary in history hasn't helped either

[cookey]

Seems even the Electoral Commission dont trust Labour,as they've just fined them £123,000 for failing to declare General Election expenses.Labour apologised and called it an 'administrative error'.

 

Perhaps that helps explain the latest polling information from Britain Elects.

 

Con     40.6%

Lab     28.6%

UKIP   11.7%

LDem   7.8%

Green  4.3%

 

Using this data,Britain Elects has gone on to produce a projection of seats following the boundary changes.

 

Con    342 seats

Lab    182

SNP     51

LDem    5

 

 

Approval ratings for Labour are even worse.

 

                   Approve        Disapprove

May                46%              24%

Corbyn           22%              50%

Farron            13%              33%

 

 

It's only going to get worse!

[Tommygilf]

Seems even the Electoral Commission dont trust Labour,as they've just fined them £123,000 for failing to declare General Election expenses.Labour apologised and called it an 'administrative error'.

Perhaps that helps explain the latest polling information from Britain Elects.

Con 40.6%

Lab 28.6%

UKIP 11.7%

LDem 7.8%

Green 4.3%

Using this data,Britain Elects has gone on to produce a projection of seats following the boundary changes.

Con 342 seats

Lab 182

SNP 51

LDem 5

Approval ratings for Labour are even worse.

Approve Disapprove

May 46% 24%

Corbyn 22% 50%

Farron 13% 33%

It's only going to get worse!

The "Ed Stone" returns to haunt the party once more.

[Jasper]

Scottish parliament voting intention (constituency): as of 22nd October

 

SNP: 51%
CON: 21%
LAB: 18%...
LDEM: 7%

 

​Tories in front of Labour up in Scotland as well

[westlondonfan]

Scottish parliament voting intention (constituency): as of 22nd October

 

SNP: 51%

CON: 21%

LAB: 18%...LDEM: 7%

 

​Tories in front of Labour up in Scotland as well

There is no doubt that the SNP have taken a lot of the Labour vote.

[cookey]

Oh dear,yet more bad news for our half dozen tribal delusionists,who spend their time scouring the inside pages of the Guardian,Mirror and Morning Star to try and substantiate their anarchist views.

 

Back in the real world,the latest poll brings yet more bad news for Labour,with the Conservatives taking an unheard of midterm lead of 14%.

 

BMG:

 

Con    42%

Lab    28%

UKIP  12%

LDem  8%

Green 4%

 

I suppose this could be just a one off,if it wasn't for a second poll (ICM) which gives an even bigger lead.

 

Con   43%

Lab   27%

UKIP  12%

LDem  8%

Green 5%

 

oh well,back to the Morning Star.

[Trojan]

Oh dear,yet more bad news for our half dozen tribal delusionists,who spend their time scouring the inside pages of the Guardian,Mirror and Morning Star to try and substantiate their anarchist views.

 

Back in the real world,the latest poll brings yet more bad news for Labour,with the Conservatives taking an unheard of midterm lead of 14%.

 

BMG:

 

Con    42%

Lab    28%

UKIP  12%

LDem  8%

Green 4%

 

I suppose this could be just a one off,if it wasn't for a second poll (ICM) which gives an even bigger lead.

 

Con   43%

Lab   27%

UKIP  12%

LDem  8%

Green 5%

 

oh well,back to the Morning Star.

Hardly mid term.  Having disposed of Cameron, and like it or not (and I don't) it was largely Labour voters who did this, I'd say we are still in May's honeymoon period.

[John Drake]

Hardly mid term.  Having disposed of Cameron, and like it or not (and I don't) it was largely Labour voters who did this, I'd say we are still in May's honeymoon period.

 

More like Corbyn's nightmare period, tbh. 

[Maximus Decimus]

The "Ed Stone" returns to haunt the party once more.

One of the most laughable things I've ever seen in politics.

Not simply because it was a gimmick but because the promises were so vague they'd been written so they'd be incredibly difficult to disprove even if they did a terrible job.

Anyone who's worked in target setting will have heard of SMART targets and these weren't even close.

[Maximus Decimus]

Oh dear,yet more bad news for our half dozen tribal delusionists,who spend their time scouring the inside pages of the Guardian,Mirror and Morning Star to try and substantiate their anarchist views.

Back in the real world,the latest poll brings yet more bad news for Labour,with the Conservatives taking an unheard of midterm lead of 14%.

BMG:

Con 42%

Lab 28%

UKIP 12%

LDem 8%

Green 4%

I suppose this could be just a one off,if it wasn't for a second poll (ICM) which gives an even bigger lead.

Con 43%

Lab 27%

UKIP 12%

LDem 8%

Green 5%

oh well,back to the Morning Star.

As I've said elsewhere, the longer they are lagging the less likely they are to claw it back. The reelection was a chance to start again from a position of power. It looks like it isn't happening.