Reserve and Academy teams

[roughyedspud]

To be fair to Lee briers he might have said £30k not £300k...I've slept since I heard it..lol

If it's £30k then its even more disgraceful..

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

To be fair to Lee briers he might have said £30k not £300k...I've slept since I heard it..lol

If it's £30k then its even more disgraceful..

Actually Lee was on the same programme, is that the one you are relating to? 

Lee's figure was higher than Tony Smith's initially, then he agreed with him, but I don't recall 300K ever being mentioned.

Thanks for your honesty.

[phiggins]

20 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Saints want reserves to be compulsory,  the reason they've scrapped their team this year is that in 2017 some of the reserve players were going a month or more without a game due to a lack of opposition.  

The coaches want these lads to be playing regularly and until everyone has a reserves team the only way they can achieve this is by sending them out on loan to the championship instead. 

So for Saints it's not the cost, its the lack of opposition. 

Too many clubs (including the one I support) are using other clubs not running a reserves as an excuse to not run one themselves. Surely the clubs can agree amongst themselves to each run a reserves rather than blaming each other and the RFL.

[Harry Stottle]

Double post

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Too many clubs (including the one I support) are using other clubs not running a reserves as an excuse to not run one themselves. Surely the clubs can agree amongst themselves to each run a reserves rather than blaming each other and the RFL.

Exactly, it totally beats me, why would a coach not want a situation where he can play those who have been out of form, ease back players returning from injury, assess personally those on the verge of promotion to first the first team, having all his player's training and playing to the same game plan's and strategies, what is there in that not to be advantageous to any coach?

[The Blues Ox]

Im sure at Fax it has been mentioned that the target figure is about 50k in total for the reserves. Why spend a few years developing a player when you can just go out and buy one?  Call it 100K to maybe find 1 or 2 players deemed good enough for the 1st team or spend that money to buy players already good enough. SL pick the latter every time. Quite frankly its a disgrace and 1 of many reasons the sport is turning in to a joke.

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

a reserve team isnt the grassroots

 

See the posts above Scotchy, I thought that those figs were excessive and I was almost sure that I heard 25K on the radio broadcast, now glad that someone else has conceeded that the figure was nowhere near a fortune, Mr Smith was getting quite vociferous why reserves should be compulsory, he was diplomatic enough to mention no names but he was quite scathing that one his previous employers who could easily afford to run a reserves chose to use DR instead, not with just one team but at that time two.

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, phiggins said:

Too many clubs (including the one I support) are using other clubs not running a reserves as an excuse to not run one themselves. Surely the clubs can agree amongst themselves to each run a reserves rather than blaming each other and the RFL.

I don’t think it’s that, more that Clubs need an organised competition.  The RFL, DR and Loan rule allow clubs to make a choice.  

The competition/League needs to be meaningful because we are trying to improve these players to a SL ready Standard. 

[Saint Toppy]

4 hours ago, phiggins said:

Too many clubs (including the one I support) are using other clubs not running a reserves as an excuse to not run one themselves. Surely the clubs can agree amongst themselves to each run a reserves rather than blaming each other and the RFL.

They tried, Leeds refused point blank to even consider the idea, so that ended the discussion of any sort of agreement between the clubs.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

Another reason the sport is a joke. How can the top division of a full time professional sport, in the top three club spectator sports, not run reserves and academy. It's been done to death so I'm not listing the reasons but the short-sightedness is scary.

Running costs for things like, doctors, ground staff, admin, food, kit etc will be around the 30k mark, the variable is wages and match payments for players. For SL teams this is a small amount and they can make some back by charging a small amount for entry and food for spectators etc.

I just find it staggering that reserves and academies arent compulsory. then we wonder why we don't produce enough players.

[Angelic Cynic]

Keighley Cougars manage it - http://www.totalrl.com/column-keighley-cougars-dispel-reserve-myths/

[nadera78]

I see the development value in retaining players once they've graduated from the Academy, and keeping them in-house too, but the question I'd ask is if there is the quality (and quantity) to sustain reserve teams, as well as championship and league 1 teams? Don't we run the risk of simply diluting the playing pool even further, and even taking players out of the community game?

[Lowdesert]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tony Smith was on Radio Manchester a couple of years ago on this very same subject, he said it cost in the region of £25,000 to run the reserves, and clubs were using the cost basis just as an excuse not to run a reserves.

He quoted £35000 in the Press.

[Lowdesert]

23 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

I see the development value in retaining players once they've graduated from the Academy, and keeping them in-house too, but the question I'd ask is if there is the quality (and quantity) to sustain reserve teams, as well as championship and league 1 teams? Don't we run the risk of simply diluting the playing pool even further, and even taking players out of the community game?

Unsure what you mean by this, but there obviously are enough players in the Clubs who’ve been running Reserves.  

The attrition in the CG can be attributed to a number of things, so we can’t just use Foundations/Academy/Reserves cast offs as the cause of that alone.  Reserves will probably (guessing here) have a split of ‘can make it’ , ‘slim chance’, and ‘no chance’ players split 15%, 20% and 65% respectively.

[nadera78]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Unsure what you mean by this, but there obviously are enough players in the Clubs who’ve been running Reserves.  

The attrition in the CG can be attributed to a number of things, so we can’t just use Foundations/Academy/Reserves cast offs as the cause of that alone.  Reserves will probably (guessing here) have a split of ‘can make it’ , ‘slim chance’, and ‘no chance’ players split 15%, 20% and 65% respectively.

Well, lots of the players currently playing Championship / League 1 have been released by SL Academies. If SL clubs kept them on instead, where would the CH/L1 clubs recruit from? They'd dip into the community clubs. Or would the SL clubs only keep 4-5 additional players, and then pad the reserve team out with lads from community clubs? In which case the standard won't be too high and the ones they want to keep and develop would be better off playing Ch/L1.

It's a question of resources. Are those players aged 19-21 better off playing reserves or championship rugby?

[Lowdesert]

8 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Well, lots of the players currently playing Championship / League 1 have been released by SL Academies. If SL clubs kept them on instead, where would the CH/L1 clubs recruit from? They'd dip into the community clubs. Or would the SL clubs only keep 4-5 additional players, and then pad the reserve team out with lads from community clubs? In which case the standard won't be too high and the ones they want to keep and develop would be better off playing Ch/L1.

It's a question of resources. Are those players aged 19-21 better off playing reserves or championship rugby?

Ok.  I’m sure the option would be Reserves.  Once a player is at another Club, the control is virtually lost.  The option to play them in the 1st Team comes back as well, if they are shaping up.

[DoubleD]

18 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Well, lots of the players currently playing Championship / League 1 have been released by SL Academies. If SL clubs kept them on instead, where would the CH/L1 clubs recruit from? They'd dip into the community clubs. Or would the SL clubs only keep 4-5 additional players, and then pad the reserve team out with lads from community clubs? In which case the standard won't be too high and the ones they want to keep and develop would be better off playing Ch/L1.

It's a question of resources. Are those players aged 19-21 better off playing reserves or championship rugby?

You make a very valid point. But what I would say is, would they be better off in a full time environment, or a part time one, as is often the case in the Championship? They would also often be part of better development process in SL club. Furthermore, there's some who will give up on their dream if they don't make it in SL and won't go down the route of playing part time with a full time job or perhaps can't because of the requirements of the job.

In a reserves comp, players can still go out on loan to gain 1st team experience vs professionals, but the problem with DR is they often just get dropped into the team, without knowing the other players, systems etc which doesn't help anyone and certainly not a players development

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

He quoted £35000 in the Press.

As Spud corrected himself earlier, I was sure it was 25K on the radio,  if you say 35K in the press so be it, irrespective 10K is not very much extra for the benefits it could bting to a club.

[Lowdesert]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As Spud corrected himself earlier, I was sure it was 25K on the radio,  if you say 35K in the press so be it, irrespective 10K is not very much extra for the benefits it could bting to a club.

Yes, I’m knitpicking and as you say, not a lot really.

[Lowdesert]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

That problem and the problems the game faces in developing players isnt that we havent invented a very low standard for the talents on the margin to develop in. 

Reserves will not solve our problems. It will take a much bigger, much more revolutionary effort to square those circles. 

Yes, I agree in that there are always more than one reason but it shouldn’t need to be so revolutionary.  For Reserves, which used to be a very tough competition, there is a real opportunity for development.  Right now we have 3 options I believe devalue the potential benefits.  DR, Loan and the third being just running a Reserves for the sake of it ala Catalans (which is, or was proving to be an elephants graveyard).

The Reserves scenario, with a organised league, would give a clear indication who will make it and who won’t in season 2 imo.

[GUBRATS]

When Jamie Ellis joined Leigh from Saints , his reason as stated at the season launch was " I want to play against men " , obviously we suggested he'd been playing against women , but his point was clear 

Not sure what the answer is 

[LordCharles]

If its going to be done it needs to be done properly and that is going to cost money, along with Championship and Championship 1 teams not running teams outside of their first grade environment so that the playing pool is not decimated and reserve grade teams at that level are simply full of "shirt fillers" to get a team out on the pitch. 

Funding would need to be available too, and ring fenced at, each SL Club for U23's and below.

Any player exiting to SL system should be directed into the Championship.

Dual registration would also cease to exist.

The attached image gives some idea of what a formal model might look like, but remember its about the bigger picture, not what one team has and the other doesn't.

 

 

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

The reserves were a relatively tough competition because most players were semi-pro, not just in the lower leagues but in the top leagues as well, the bigger clubs could take all the players and leave the marginal talents earning a pittance in the reserves in case they were ever needed. The SC and the change to fully pro status means thats simply not an option any more. Their value collapsed as the opportunity cost went up and their ability to contribute went down.

Any reserves league doesnt address the reality of the situation. 

Beg to differ on that.  Clubs played players who belonged to that club and the odd trialists. There wasn’t the money in it to travel from club to club, so, for pinching players, an odd one sure, but it couldn’t be further from the truth.

A few clubs do think it is the way forward, one doesn’t want to compete until its organised, the rest are a mix of DR, Loan and nothing.  I think we’d find all SL clubs running Reserves if it was organised and compulsory.  It’s in their interests to make the best of what they have.

 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

They tried, Leeds refused point blank to even consider the idea, so that ended the discussion of any sort of agreement between the clubs.

Can't for the life of me understand Mr. Hetherington's obstinate stance and complete refusal to enter into a Reserves sst up, I honestley believe that in his position of running the biggest club in the country that this action of his is actually holding the game back in the UK.

Then again his motives could simply be that he is has we are advised is a trait of those East of the Pennines in that he has short arms and very deep pockets, unless someone can come up with a better reason.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

He doesn't think it works and thinks his players develop better on DR

Can you plaese point me to some publication or other, that Mr Hetherington has publicly stated the reasons he has taken the DR path and why Reserves doesn't work.