League One's Future

[Big Picture]

46 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Player development in expansion areas will only happen if there are the systems in place and even then it will take at least 5 years to bring any players through to a reasonable standard and possibly many decades to bring through players of Super League standard in a key creative position such as hooker, half back or full back.  I am not familiar with Flutie or Tebow (presumably NFL quarter backs?) and I have no doubt that they are extremely talented but I really do think that you are under appreciating rugby league skills.  Rugby League has a long way to go before it can compete for talent with the NFL.

Just as I was getting into the sport we saw that a world class sprinter in Dwain Chambers couldn't adapt and only a few years later we saw Andy Powell, a regular in the Wales Union team, fail to make much of an impression.  Not only that but they were playing in positions which are no way near as technical or pressurised as half back.  I'm sure that athletes can convert but this will take time.  We can't go halving our developing player pool over the course of a few years just to chase a bit or even a lot of short term money.

Flutie and Tebow were star college quarterbacks at Boston College and Florida respectively who didn't become NFL stars because they didn't quite fit the mold of what NFL coaches want in a quarterback.  Flutie went to the USFL first and then to the CFL  and became a star there, Tebow is now trying his hand at baseball in the minor leagues.  Both were mobile, good runners and adept at spotting gaps in defenses and shifting the ball where it needed to go to take advantage of those gaps.  Flutie's a short guy something in the mold of Geoff Toovey and Rob Burrow, whereas Tebow is tall and physically strong.  Neither was a typical quarterback, they had more flexibility and adaptability than most would.

Thousands of top college players like them come out of those NCAA athlete factories every year and are overlooked by the NFL and only a few of them get other options in gridiron.  There are plenty more Akarika Dawns in their number, plenty more, and unlike someone like Dwain Chambers they have transferable skills and they're well accustomed to body contact.  RL gaining a good profile over here could attract many such players to the game.

[glossop saint]

11 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Flutie and Tebow were star college quarterbacks at Boston College and Florida respectively who didn't become NFL stars because they didn't quite fit the mold of what NFL coaches want in a quarterback.  Flutie went to the USFL first and then to the CFL  and became a star there, Tebow is now trying his hand at baseball in the minor leagues.  Both were mobile, good runners and adept at spotting gaps in defenses and shifting the ball where it needed to go to take advantage of those gaps.  Flutie's a short guy something in the mold of Geoff Toovey and Rob Burrow, whereas Tebow is tall and physically strong.  Neither was a typical quarterback, they had more flexibility and adaptability than most would.

Thousands of top college players like them come out of those NCAA athlete factories every year and are overlooked by the NFL and only a few of them get other options in gridiron.  There are plenty more Akarika Dawns in their number, plenty more, and unlike someone like Dwain Chambers they have transferable skills and they're well accustomed to body contact.  RL gaining a good profile over here could attract many such players to the game.

Thanks for the info on the two ex-footballers, that is interesting.  I definitely see your point regarding them coming over to RL.  I do still stand by my point that however good these college athletes are and whatever their transferable skills I still think that they would struggle initially in comparison to players who have been playing since they were 7/8.  I would still expect these players to take 5 years to get to a lower super league standard.  Do you know the back story behind Monte Gaddis?  I assume that he was a promising NFL college player and he has not transferred to a high standard of RL. 

Don't get me wrong, I wish Gaddis all the best, and any other budding ex college footballer, but I do think that it will be harder than simply giving them a ball and a throwing them onto the field.  I would back the young kids playing the game from Widnes to Hull KR to Cumbia and London over the Americans picking up the game in later life.  These will be the players supplying the bulk Super League for the next 15/20 years.

[EssexRL]

4 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

They still arent building themselve to anything if they are expecting someone else to pay for it.

I think the point is that in considering the “return” on L1, thought needs to be given to its wider benefits as well as costs. These have been summed up very well by a number of contributors (and thanks scotchy1 for your posts they’ve generated interesting discussion and made me think ‘what’s the point of L1?’)

 L1 is itself is generating a lot of interest, blimey we’ve even got our own podcast! When I started watching Skolars 6-7 years ago it did feel the league was a bit of a back water but it certainly doesn’t now! I might even venture to say it’s the most interesting league and there’s some great rugby being played. 

 

[Big Picture]

44 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Thanks for the info on the two ex-footballers, that is interesting.  I definitely see your point regarding them coming over to RL.  I do still stand by my point that however good these college athletes are and whatever their transferable skills I still think that they would struggle initially in comparison to players who have been playing since they were 7/8.  I would still expect these players to take 5 years to get to a lower super league standard.  Do you know the back story behind Monte Gaddis?  I assume that he was a promising NFL college player and he has not transferred to a high standard of RL. 

Don't get me wrong, I wish Gaddis all the best, and any other budding ex college footballer, but I do think that it will be harder than simply giving them a ball and a throwing them onto the field.  I would back the young kids playing the game from Widnes to Hull KR to Cumbia and London over the Americans picking up the game in later life.  These will be the players supplying the bulk Super League for the next 15/20 years.

You're welcome, they're just examples of the kind of athletes over here who might be attracted to RL in time.  Yes such players would struggle at first in comparison to others who started playing RL when they were kids.  I daresay more than a few Union converts struggled at first too.

I do know something about Monte Gaddis, like Akarika Dawn he was a college gridiron player and he even played the same position, inside linebacker.  This page shows him rated number 88 out of 108 inside linebackers in his last year at Towson University which plays in the NCAA Division 1 "Football Championship Subdivision" league the Colonial Athletic Association which has members from Massachusetts down to South Carolina.  Ryan Burroughs also has a gridiron background, he apparently played running back and wide receiver in high school.  Joe Eichner, another of the players signed from the Wolfpack trial, played baseball rather than gridiron in his youth according to his Wikipedia page.

It might be that only the very best of such prospects could make it, but even a small fraction of the thousands like Gaddis, Dawn, Burroughs and Eichner would be a big number.

[Angelic Cynic]

5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

1. I dont think it is unfair, it highlights the problem exactly. Toulouse and Toronto and West wales are in entirely different positions, with entirely different goals and at entirely different points in their development. What is the point of shoehorning them together?

2. Luke Gale spent his early career at Leeds Rhinos.

    Luke Gale signed for Doncaster at 18 yrs of age - after being at Leeds.

    Good job there was a League 1 side for him to hone his skills at.....and some fella named Ellery Hanley coaching at the club,at the time.

    

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

20 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes, Luke Gale is a Leeds Rhinos academy product.

A Leeds Rhinos academy product who would be most likely out of the game by now if there had been no League 1 for him to drop down into and re-establish himself

[The Parksider]

On 4/23/2018 at 3:04 PM, deluded pom? said:

Being subject to a review isn't the same as being blocked though is it 

Spin it as you like. Rimmer named Toronto as having no guarantee of an SL place. Toronto reacted accordingly. Rimmer's later comment named nobody else and nobody else reacted. 

22 hours ago, glossop saint said:

At the risk of sounding like Parky...

replacing Wakey, Salford, Hull KR and Widnes with Toronto, New York, Boston and Hamilton is not without it's problems.  What happens to those 4 current SL clubs?  Presumably they drop to the Championship and in the current model would likely turn semi-pro.  What happens to their player development?  what happens to the next generation of these players?  .

I want to see the equivalent of those players from NA, (1)I can't wait to see a New Yorker waltzing through the Wigan defence and streaking down the wing.  This will take time though.  We need to be careful not to abandon our current clubs in the pursuit of the "Super" clubs elsewhere, especially if it means that we half our player production line.  

There is no risk, you raise the two central issues to this nonsensical Transatlantic rubbish.

Issue one says it all. You are fantasising and liking your fantasy so your coming on here excitedly nattering on about the Transatlantic dream. Your excitement at the thought of it has clouded your judgement for the best part of two years. Why you all of a sudden realise it won't work I don't know. It may be you have seen how silly it is dressing up a squad of 28 Non-North Americans inToronto shirts and passing them off as a Canadian side. I went to the Halifax game to experience this exciting project. I didn't find it exciting, it was pathetic. Now the first time I saw PNG play...... 

Issue 2 has been my analysis of why it won't work for the best part of two years. You have now realised I have it bang on right. Superleague cannot afford to lose half their player production line whilst at the same time NA sides are shipping the best over there. Whilst I think it is a fantasy mega rich American and Canadian Investors are going to do this (The only persons who are pushing this rubbish is Aussie Argylle and Englishman Wilby) if they did they would not stand for just replacing the bottom half of Superleague, they would want the cap raised and they would want to compete with the NRL. Now you spend the next two years figuring out what Lenegan, Caddick, Pearson, McManus and Moran would make of having to drop to the bottom half of Superleague to make way for the dollar Billionaires and their massive TV contract.

17 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You don't sound like Parky IMO.

As Captain Survival has stated elsewhere, there are plenty of athletes over here who could probably transition well to RL. Dozens of big universities in the US are essentially athlete factories when it comes to sports, spending millions of dollars a year each on their sports programs.  Many of those potential players will have gridiron backgrounds......

You and Capt. Survival sound like Perez

When challenged on the player issue in 2016 Perez used your pathetic excuse above. However he said that these players were already available and it would not take long to convert them. Again go watch the interview.  After that he got his place in League One and completely abandoned any project to try out Grid Iron players. When asked about this he made some stupid remark about Chinese athletes.

Just recently he's resigned from TWP following his resignation from running the Canadian game, and nothing has been heard of him since. Meanwhile TWP's squad of 28 players does not have one North American in it. How exciting is that Mr. Glossop Saint?

But you guys are welcome to go on "sounding like Perez"

[Davo5]

I didn't know Toronto were still in League 1,I guess this is another thread hijacked and ruined by the perennial TWP hater.

[glossop saint]

48 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

There is no risk, you raise the two central issues to this nonsensical Transatlantic rubbish.

Issue one says it all. You are fantasising and liking your fantasy so your coming on here excitedly nattering on about the Transatlantic dream. Your excitement at the thought of it has clouded your judgement for the best part of two years. Why you all of a sudden realise it won't work I don't know. It may be you have seen how silly it is dressing up a squad of 28 Non-North Americans inToronto shirts and passing them off as a Canadian side. I went to the Halifax game to experience this exciting project. I didn't find it exciting, it was pathetic. Now the first time I saw PNG play...... 

Issue 2 has been my analysis of why it won't work for the best part of two years. You have now realised I have it bang on right. Superleague cannot afford to lose half their player production line whilst at the same time NA sides are shipping the best over there. Whilst I think it is a fantasy mega rich American and Canadian Investors are going to do this (The only persons who are pushing this rubbish is Aussie Argylle and Englishman Wilby) if they did they would not stand for just replacing the bottom half of Superleague, they would want the cap raised and they would want to compete with the NRL. Now you spend the next two years figuring out what Lenegan, Caddick, Pearson, McManus and Moran would make of having to drop to the bottom half of Superleague to make way for the dollar Billionaires and their massive TV contract.

Come on Parky, that isn't what I'm saying and you know it, and I don't really appreciate you telling me what I fantasise about and my thoughts on it.  Firstly, I have been urging caution on the NA expansion since the formation of the Wolfpack and posted relating to the issue of player development early on in their existence (actually backing you up on a point).  Yes, I am excited but I am also dubious that the RFL will manage it correctly.

Secondly, NA expansion is not just a fantasy.  It may not happen but it is definitely not a fantasy.  You cannot argue that their are not bids for pro clubs in NA.  The viability of the bids and the nationality and motives of the backers may be quesioned but there are bids and if clubs get the go ahead and get into the system I am fairly sure that fans on the ground won't care less about who is running the club.

Finally, I say again, I have urged caution on rapid replacement of our apparently struggling clubs before so there is no sudden realisation.  We need to be careful about any dropping of clubs.  Expansion should be expansion not replacement.

I'll leave it at that, even if you respond to this.  Davo5 is right, this is a thread about League 1, not the Toronto Wolfpack.  Sorry for the thread drift.

[Scarey71]

21 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

They arent building themselves in to anything if their plan is to survive on handouts

You're Jacob Reece-mogg I claim my £5? 

Have you looked at the accounts of SL teams?  They aren't generating cash they are huge black holes and you can't see past the event horizon?

Without money men SL clubs don't survive too well.  Want proof? Who's second in L1?  What happened to Halifax when their Stadium deal went sour? How far were the Wolves from liquidation before another supermarket survival act?  How close were Leeds to admin when Hetherington stepped in?  How much were Sts losing per year before McManus?  We could name every club.

Bradford hit the perfect storm with John Prescott all but blocking the Stadium, the willy waving over Harris and the RFLs comedy attempts to find a money man to take the club on whilst the rest of the SL we're gleefully withholding sky funding and sharing it out between them?

To suggest L1 isn't a necessary safety net or proving ground is shortsighted at best.  Imagine the day Hudds are left without their aging benefactor?   Is it a case of ta ta chaps it's been nice but you're akin to benefit scrounger now, ###### off???  There's no SL club to force merge it with?  Or do you let them do a Bradford, drop down and start again.

If SL clubs think they can't go bang too they're sadly mistaken, sounds like SL's been reading the Tory manifesto... Tax breaks for us, demonise the poor buggers struggling to survive.  Sadly that arrogance led to Bradford learning a long, hard and painful lesson.

[kev p]

A conference system for laeague 1 with n/a, Europe & uk as 3 conferences, with cross conference games also. This would keep costs down but let new teams get experience. Conferences do not have to be the same size, maybe 2 uk conferences. Prob 20 to 24 teams in total, with play offs for promotion & championship. 

[deluded pom?]

2 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Come on Parky, that isn't what I'm saying and you know it.

Careful, you'll be accusing Parky of spinning other people's comments to suit himself.

[Scarey71]

26 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Again, nobody has suggested killing off league 1, I havent even suggested cutting the funding. Simply that living off SL's crumbs in the hope one day you will take their place at top table isnt a sustainable plan for the future.

Part of the reason the problems of lower league RL are never addressed is any suggestion that it should be pushed to create something better is met with this over-emotional woe is me reaction.

Everyone of those clubs is doing their best to promote a sport that is not hip/fashionable/aspirational, they provide a dumping ground for SL's unused players (No reserves, no SL is my want ), they are often in overcrowded RL area meaning the SL clubs can dominate recruitment and then they have any gems they unearth taken from them for a pittance and are accused of living off scraps.

I think you should look again at this league because down here I can't see it at all. It's a bloody eye opener.  There is no woe is me, not even from Bradford any more.

But there is a patronising attitude from SL that they, they are somehow a breed apart, they are gentlemen yes, gentlemen of higher standing and moral fortitude...and that those urchins 'down there should know their place'.  We can't have those oiks take our place at the top table can we.......We told the RFU to *** off for exactly that attitude. Why are we here again?

 

[Toby Chopra]

36 minutes ago, Scarey71 said:

But there is a patronising attitude from SL that they, they are somehow a breed apart, they are gentlemen yes, gentlemen of higher standing and moral fortitude...and that those urchins 'down there should know their place'.  We can't have those oiks take our place at the top table can we.......We told the RFU to *** off for exactly that attitude. Why are we here again?

 

Well you've gone all in, I'll give you that...

[Scarey71]

17 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Well you've gone all in, I'll give you that...

 yes... mirroring the rhetoric is sometimes the only way to try get people out of their entrenched view. 

This scrounger tag being level at league 1 is shocking. It needs to stop.

[Scarey71]

Nope Scotchy.  But you've posted something different  to the woe is me accusation

Instead of taking the approach of 'They should do better', ask yourself what they can do.  You soon hit substantial obstacles.

Let's develop our own players...they generally move on when SL comes calling
Let's attract more fans...the constant talking down of L1 really hinders that
We're struggling for players because the local SL clubs hoovered them up - let's dual reg
ah because we've dual reg'd what's left of our kids aren't getting a game and they've left the sport?
Shall we try sign a decent SL player at the end of their career as a marquee - can't they want full time
Shall we go full time and see what happens - We saw what happened to Sheffield and Bradford only the lower standard journeyman pro is available for the money we have.  Those amateurs were better and we're in financial meltdown

To get to the top table you need money that's why only Leigh have scrambled out of the Championship under this system.  You have to be FT.  So returning to the point of money men.  Without them you can have all the ambition you want but you are pee-ing into the wind.  Each SL club is on a trap door and it could open at any moment. It's not a case of SL clubs being magically different, they have a minted Super Fan propping up the squad, marketing dept.

 

[Scarey71]

At least answer the damn question.  Its a very simple one.

What can they do about having ambition but no money to follow it through?

Put yourself in the Hunslet's Chairman's shoes.  With a small budget and a SL Giant less than 5 miles away.  How are YOU gonna get them into SL?

 

[Scarey71]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

I wouldnt. Hunslet arent ever going to be an SL side. Im going to focus on what they can be and make the best of that, not what they can't.

Absolutely and that's what the L1 boys and girls are doing week in week out.  Employing the good will of volunteers to market games on Social Media because there is, generally, no money for anything other than keeping the lights on.

I know you are not advocating cutting them adrift or even reducing their funding but I can't see any club in that division that is happy to just exist?

Spinning it round a little I'd image CH and L1 would become closer together in terms of standard if the RFL invested more in L1 (but kept a close eye on that spend.  Don't need another Bradford).

[DEANO]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I wouldnt. Hunslet arent ever going to be an SL side. Im going to focus on what they can be and make the best of that, not what they can't.

Err. Didn’t Hunslet win the right to be in super greed a few years back but we’re denied access 

[newbe]

Let S/L run a proper reserve competition, stop the payments to championship n league 1, then let's see who are the best clubs financially. That should stop all the whinging 

[RayCee]

13 hours ago, Scarey71 said:

You're Jacob Reece-mogg I claim my £5? 

Have you looked at the accounts of SL teams?  They aren't generating cash they are huge black holes and you can't see past the event horizon?

Without money men SL clubs don't survive too well.  Want proof? Who's second in L1?  What happened to Halifax when their Stadium deal went sour? How far were the Wolves from liquidation before another supermarket survival act?  How close were Leeds to admin when Hetherington stepped in?  How much were Sts losing per year before McManus?  We could name every club.

Bradford hit the perfect storm with John Prescott all but blocking the Stadium, the willy waving over Harris and the RFLs comedy attempts to find a money man to take the club on whilst the rest of the SL we're gleefully withholding sky funding and sharing it out between them?

To suggest L1 isn't a necessary safety net or proving ground is shortsighted at best.  Imagine the day Hudds are left without their aging benefactor?   Is it a case of ta ta chaps it's been nice but you're akin to benefit scrounger now, ###### off???  There's no SL club to force merge it with?  Or do you let them do a Bradford, drop down and start again.

If SL clubs think they can't go bang too they're sadly mistaken, sounds like SL's been reading the Tory manifesto... Tax breaks for us, demonise the poor buggers struggling to survive.  Sadly that arrogance led to Bradford learning a long, hard and painful lesson.

I wasn't going to comment anymore on this thread because I thought it had run its course. How wrong I was! You've turned up Scary and put it into perspective very nicely. Scary really  I have taken your comment as seen above as a quote but could have used anyone of them. They are all good. How anyone could argue against your reasoning is beyond me, but it is a forum and someone always will. At least it gives us a chance to compare opinions and make a decision as to who's got a handle on the subject. 

[Angelic Cynic]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

We dont need CH and L1 to be close together in standard, its only a weird RL thing that sees it as even a thing that differing divisions are of differing quality.

I think there are clubs in L1 and the championship and if we are honest in SL who are happy doing what they have always done, selling to the same people in the same place at the same time in the same way for the same reasons and blame higher up when that no longer seems to be working. And because it isnt working it suddenly, somehow becomes the responsibility of other clubs to subsidise them to do the same things in the same way.

We need to change, we need to adapt, we need to deal with the new reality because it is happening whether we like it or not, and if SL currently puts a million a year in L1, in 5 years its going to need to be £1.5m, and in ten years £2m just pouring money in to a bottomless put without even the intention of ever getting out of it, unless that change happens we are just pouring money away keeping dying clubs on life support.

    But over recent years the super League clubs have needed life support.Not just Bradford Bulls - with Licensing given advance warning to Super League clubs,some clubs still failed to spend money on stadia but spent money on players - a tad unfair on those who invested in stadia,just as it was unfair when some councils assisted some clubs but not others.

    Some clubs who struck lucky with success also gained with boosted attendances.

    Hull FC before that,were handed Gateshead Thunder - even in Wrexham some fans of the club there have benefited from a period of time in Super League.

    If the cut off point was right now,this minute,Bradford don't get the benefit of being in Super League again but still retain much of their fanbase from having their golden period.

     The new(ish) clubs,Hemel,Coventry,Skolars et al don't have that good fortune.

     What improvements have Super League clubs done with their portion of the money?  Do they just rely on a television company to subsidise them?  

[OriginalMrC]

Some bizarre comments here. Pretty much every major sport including Football and Rugby Union has central funding of some kind. The argument that League one clubs should be able to survive without it is nonsense. The exact same could be said of Championship and Superleague clubs.

The amount of money that goes to League one is a very modest amount. The suggestion that league one brings nothing to the table for that very modest outlay is also nonsense. Yes by all means apply some conditions to funding, but to suggest its not value for money in alot of cases is rubbish. 

[EssexRL]

To summarise the value of L1 and why it must continue:

1) route to expanding RL

2) only league with a reasonable regional spread from South Wales, London, midlands, Cumbria and northeast 

3) allows traditional clubs to grow (York) or reboot (Bradford)

4) entry route for new players/coaches including growing non heartland players (eg West Wales)

5) exit route for players/coaches no longer able to play in higher leagues

6) community links 

7) crazy to promote a sport that has just two leagues with almost all teams in just two counties

8)i watch a L1 team (clearly if Skolars ever got promoted I’d totally lose interest!)

[OriginalMrC]

I'm confused now ? I think most of us are in agreement that things need to change but that withdrawing funding from League 1 clubs is a bad thing. Not quite sure I understand the opposing arguments...