Eric Perez buys Hemel’s licence, with plans to create second Canadian club (Merged Threads)

[JCXV]

3 hours ago, Tre Cool said:

Hemel were never looking like making a success of the pro leagues though.  They spent a loooong time trying to get there then didn't seem able to kick on on or off the pitch.

Im all for replacing them with a stronger club whether new or old.

My main concern is whether the RFL / SL have any kind of plan to absorb new clubs with any idea how to increase the financial income for the league.  They are hugely reliant on the big attendances at the major annual events.  How do they replace that money with potentially Toulouse, Toronto, London and another in the top flight? What is the plan?  Maybe there is one, and I'm sure there's a way for a savvy organisation to monetise it but...... 

 

What do the RFL get out of it if the clubs in SL get better revenues?

[North but south]

 

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

We have 12 clubs with about 19 quality players each from England and a few French, and the odd Welshman. That is 228 players. If you want to put overseas non-heartlands clubs into SL they have to take players off other clubs here or they could not compete. If they do this one less club here can compete for every new club. This is "substitution" and the problem is if you put clubs who do not develop players (and never will for at least decades) into SL and push out clubs that DO, that player pool will decrease and then your in the mire......

So you hopefully get it that expansion isn't getting rid of clubs and their academies along the M62 and shipping their players hundreds if not thousands of miles away???

I understand you don't think academies work, you're always going on about the player shortage. But wouldn't an additional team allow for more players who get dropped at when they are a teenager to developed, thus creating a larger player pool. Not every player is a world beater at 18, look are vardy in football  he was playing non league until he was 25. You want more players give the ones who take longer to developed a chance. Dual reg has already pushed most of them out of the game.

You want more people to take up the sport you need a bigger footprint and create interest.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

Now there is the TV deal currently there is a professional game in England because enough English people love RL enough to pay money to SKY to watch it on TV. So if the English clubs are removed for overseas clubs then it is likely less fans here will bother with their subscriptions any more and the TV deal will reduce. It is to reduce anyway so it may well be by 2021 there is just enough TV money for 10 clubs who will need to be English because those who pay the piper call the tune.

So overseas clubs like Toulouse need to bring additional TV money in to justify a Superleague place. That is what the SL bosses said to them and they even told them which TV channels to approach.

A wider audience creates more money. Premier league latest deal was£4.46billion for 3 years, down from 5.4 billion on the last deal. The international rights are worth £1.5billion per year and are increase at an amazing rate. New markets really need to be looked at.

As Toronto have shown more people are interested in exotic places like Toronto than places most of the country hasn't heard of, like most of the superleague towns. To be honest you're more likely to see non fans willing to watch Boston vs Montreal compared to Selby vs irlam

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

It is of course nice to chat about a world league fantasy, like Scotchy does, but the cold hard business reality is vastly different. The people who support RL across the M62 who also develop players for the game, and who put money into the game whether directors or fans either by turnstyle or TV subs  own the game and they are hardly likely to stand by whilst their clubs are progressively replaced by clubs who offer no real expansion and who will if allowed in progressively cheese fans and rich backers off here.

This is something I have explained many times over two years, so if you simply want to dream about the future that's fine. If you want to be realistic about it then go back to the top and read it again and if you disagree, write to Mr. Lenegan and tell him he is wrong.

Those leaders of the game have done a good job with several team folding, going into administration, or living on a knife edge in the last 10 years. It is dangerous and hurts the whole game to just keep propping up the same clubs when really you should be looking for avenues to add interest and safety nets. It is easier to get 10,000 people attending in a city of 2 million than to get 5000 people in a town of 30,000. Big cities are safety nets, a properly placed stadium and good marketing will see people. When Manchester storm played in the city centre they had attendance record of 17,425 which was a european record for ice hockey. This uk record was only broken in 2007 by a nhl game. In their altrincham stadium they currently get an average attendance of 1503. This is the reason why Manchester rangers would work but Oldham, swinton, and Salford don't. Even Sale sharks fans hate the bell stadium.

[JCXV]

52 minutes ago, Cdd said:

That’s a really long winded answer to a question I didn’t ask.

To say I know nothing seems a little prejudice, I’ve worked in marketing for too rugby clubs in both codes.

I agree with the criteria set out for expansion, a club must either produce players and increase the talent pool OR increase the profile of the competition allowing for extra revenue through sponsorship and broadcasting. 

1. Obviously Toronto don’t currently produce players for the sport but it won’t happen overnight, and it certainly won’t happen without a flagship club either. It may take 20 years but that’s the kind of long term thinking we need.

2. Toronto have already proved they are attractive to broadcasters. There’s more money coming into the championship this year purely because they have facilitated a TV deal. Sponsorship is much easier to sell when your team is on TV. Small steps but they’re only in year 3.

You ask these questions about Toulouse in or Belgrade in and Hull KR and Castleford out....

Ridiculous, because I have not claimed I want Belgrade in or Hull KR or Castleford our for that matter. 

I want to see Castleford and Hull KR thriving I don’t want to see anyone ‘out’.

I think we should be adding clubs like Toulouse and Toronto slowly but surely as and when they are ready IN ADDITION (not instead of) traditional clubs.

I believe a competition with big traditional clubs like Wigan, Leeds, Hull, Warrington along with revitalised clubs such as Bradford, Huddersfield, Hull KR, Castleford, York and who knows maybe even Widnes is an exciting prospect for broadcasters.... especially if you throw in Catalans, Toulouse and Toronto into the mix. 

Im sure you’re question will be where will the extra players come from? (For two or three extra clubs)

1. Dozens of players are being lost to the game from clubs like Wigan because of the lack of a reserves structure. Keeping these players in the game (Tom Davies was almost one who left) will increase our player pool.

2. There is tonnes of talent in the championship many of whom could make the step up to super league.

3. Plenty of players playing in the NSW and  Queensland cup who could make the step up given the opportunity.

4. Plenty of french talent not always getting the opportunity at Toulouse or Catalans.

Adding two or three expansion clubs isn’t the fantasy land you seem to think it is, nor does it have to be at the cost of traditional clubs.

Widnes and Bradford are not where they are because of Toronto and Toulouse. I think both could be of more value to the league than Salford if they were given the same handout by Sky, but as soon as that money stopped what chance do they have? 

 

How can you introduce new teams to a league without losing existing teams in that league unless you simply keep making the league larger?

Also, the PRO12 is a RU league that has teams in it from Italy, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and South Africa. It has been going for quite a long time now, well over a decade. I think you might agree that this league would be a decent pointer as to how a RL league might fair with teams from England, France and Canada in it? If you do think that then you should be very wary as it is certainly not a commercial juggernaut sweeping all before it, full national leagues command much more interest because I believe, they engender far more familiarity and interest for fans than matches between sides with little or no previous affiliation. 'Manufactured' sides seem to fair the worse as well which perhaps reinforces that view. You can parachute a team into SuperLeague called Toronto, Toulouse or Timbuktu but fans aren't stupid, they know the difference between plastic and the real thing. It's why a team like MKDons has never really taken off or commands any respect in the football community - people know it's fake. 

[GUBRATS]

You can fool some of the people all the time , and all of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time

[North but south]

18 minutes ago, JCXV said:

 

How can you introduce new teams to a league without losing existing teams in that league unless you simply keep making the league larger?

Also, the PRO12 is a RU league that has teams in it from Italy, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and South Africa. It has been going for quite a long time now, well over a decade. I think you might agree that this league would be a decent pointer as to how a RL league might fair with teams from England, France and Canada in it? If you do think that then you should be very wary as it is certainly not a commercial juggernaut sweeping all before it, full national leagues command much more interest because I believe, they engender far more familiarity and interest for fans than matches between sides with little or no previous affiliation. 'Manufactured' sides seem to fair the worse as well which perhaps reinforces that view. You can parachute a team into SuperLeague called Toronto, Toulouse or Timbuktu but fans aren't stupid, they know the difference between plastic and the real thing. It's why a team like MKDons has never really taken off or commands any respect in the football community - people know it's fake. 

Super rugby seems to do very well. Average attendance almost 20k. Rugby premiership is 14k. Now you could say MLB and NFL and nba are all multi country with "manufactured" side seem to do very well. 

[JCXV]

1 minute ago, North but south said:

Super rugby seems to do very well. Average attendance almost 20k. Rugby premiership is 14k. Now you could say MLB and NFL and nba are all multi country with "manufactured" side seem to do very well. 

The Premiership is England only teams. 

Super Rugby is on the verge of collapse from what I understand - the South African sides are threatening to pull out which will kill it stone dead.

Quoting American only sport leagues is really not a very useful tangent to follow. Even football can't break that market. 

[North but south]

6 minutes ago, JCXV said:

The Premiership is England only teams. 

Super Rugby is on the verge of collapse from what I understand - the South African sides are threatening to pull out which will kill it stone dead.

Quoting American only sport leagues is really not a very useful tangent to follow. Even football can't break that market. 

Super rugby contains teams from multiple countries which you said people don't like. The attendance seems to say otherwise. In fact the real difference is how well it is marketed. A premier league game will sell out any stadium in the USA, just like a NFL game will sell out any stadium in the UK. A MLS game doesn't nor does a UK gridiron game.

The three american/canadian leagues also show that these manufactured teams can get followings. Which you state fans aren't stupid and wouldnt like these.

[JCXV]

1 minute ago, North but south said:

Super rugby contains teams from multiple countries which you said people don't like. The attendance seems to say otherwise. In fact the real difference is how well it is marketed. A premier league game will sell out any stadium in the USA, just like a NFL game will sell out any stadium in the UK. A MLS game doesn't nor does a UK gridiron game.

The three american/canadian leagues also show that these manufactured teams can get followings. Which you state fans aren't stupid and wouldnt like these.

 

Why don't you comment on the PRO12 which has more in common with a SuperLeague potentially containing teams from England, France and Canada than the NFL, MLB, NBA, MLS, Premier League and Super Rugby do or ever will do?

[Manx RL]

Any formal announcements from any parties named, Hemel, Perez, RFL etc to actually confirm or deny this news?

[RayCee]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I'm sorry but you know nothing,

That's not like you Parky...

[Tre Cool]

1 hour ago, JCXV said:

 You can parachute a team into SuperLeague called Toronto, Toulouse or Timbuktu but fans aren't stupid, they know the difference between plastic and the real thing. It's why a team like MKDons has never really taken off or commands any respect in the football community - people know it's fake. 

This is the ideological viewpoint of a lot of UK fans but I don't buy it.  There are plenty of examples of new clubs taking off from non heartland areas in sport.  It's just not that common in UK sport as it's not been in our mainstream culture.  Melbourne Storm seem to go ok with a team full of players from Queensland.  MK Dons would easily draw 10-15k if they were in the top half of the championship and probably sell the stadium out in the Premiership - it's just a matter of funding and investment which they've never had quite enough of.

Las Vegas seem to go ok in the NHL, playing ice hockey in the desert.

Belfast Giants get 5k+ crowds with a team full of Canadians as do quite a few other UK ice hockey clubs

Franchises aren't really a thing in UK sport mainly due to the dominance and wealth of soccer with historic clubs in just about every town and city in the country.  But there's no reason it can't work.

 

[JCXV]

3 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

But there's no reason it can't work.

 

 

 

Other than decades of evidence that it doesn't work in the UK, especially in RL, your post is spot-on!

 

[Tre Cool]

1 minute ago, JCXV said:

 

Other than decades of evidence that it doesn't work in the UK, especially in RL, your post is spot-on!

 

What evidence is that? Show me a well funded, well planned RL franchise that has failed in the UK? There's been a few badly planned, underfunded clubs thrown in too quickly that failed. Gateshead, London, Crusaders, PSG...hardly relevant here.

[JohnM]

2 minutes ago, JCXV said:

 

Other than decades of evidence that it doesn't work in the UK, especially in RL, your post is spot-on!

 

I find that somewhat illogical. It implies that nothing can ever exist. Surely something has to start before it can decline:e.g, MK Dons, Livingstone and that little club that used to be Newton Heath. Then there is Salford City. 

[JCXV]

4 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I find that somewhat illogical. It implies that nothing can ever exist. Surely something has to start before it can decline:e.g, MK Dons, Livingstone and that little club that used to be Newton Heath. Then there is Salford City. 

 

If you were a millionaire, you'd do due diligence to see what had happened before. If RL can't work commercially in London then it's very hard to argue a case for anywhere else in the country outside of the heartlands. 

[Tre Cool]

1 hour ago, JCXV said:

 

If you were a millionaire, you'd do due diligence to see what had happened before. If RL can't work commercially in London then it's very hard to argue a case for anywhere else in the country outside of the heartlands. 

Why can't it work in London? And why would London be the one place it should work above all others? 

[JohnM]

JCXV, I don't think that is necessarily right. "we tried that before. It didn't work then, and it won't work now" Dragon's Den has turned down a number of opportunities as non viable based on (instinctive?) due diligence only to have missed out on opportunities such as the Trunkie. 

Millionaires or not, our game is too small to apply some sort of unified template to predict commercial success etc. It's basically  a set of (very) small businesses, the success or fail factors of each one are so different. 

[JCXV]

2 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

Why can't it work in London? And why would London be the one place it should work above all others? 

 

I don't know the why, I just know that it hasn't worked. 

London is a commercial behemoth, about 20% of the UK GDP is generated there. It is full of people that grew up in the league heartlands and it also has a large Australian community. 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

https://www.skysports.com/amp/rugby-league/news/12196/11648679/toronto-wolfpack-founder-planning-second-north-american-rugby-league-team

Perez has come out and said he is planning a north american team.

My money would be on a team in Florida.

 

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

https://www.skysports.com/amp/rugby-league/news/12196/11648679/toronto-wolfpack-founder-planning-second-north-american-rugby-league-team

Perez has come out and said he is planning a north american team.

My money would be on a team in Florida.

 

Palm Beach Trumperteers?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Vancouver Vipers sounds good. 

[Chamey]

Vancouver's a bit too far, DC, NY, Jacksonville, Atlanta etc are all a good shout.

[Tre Cool]

1 hour ago, JCXV said:

 

I don't know the why, I just know that it hasn't worked. 

London is a commercial behemoth, about 20% of the UK GDP is generated there. It is full of people that grew up in the league heartlands and it also has a large Australian community. 

It's also got more going on than anywhere else, loads of pro sports clubs, is absolutely massive with horrible roads so living in "London" can put you 20+ miles and an hour away from another bit of "London".  I believe it can work in London but needs serious investment and a long term stadium deal and is probably far from the easiest place for a new club.  Aussies also don't have any built in respect or interest in Super League so aren't a great target audience.... although again i believe there is a target audience to appeal to if the match day experience was done right and sold right.

[The 4 of Us]

When 119 replies is not enough.

[Tre Cool]

I love Eric Perez what a great man he is