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Rango

Stadium..a sad day

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8 hours ago, thetimberman said:

PFI is being used to try and make a case by Mr Jenkinson to justify his reasoning, in the current financial climate PFI is a total non starter and should not warrant a mention, as money is cheap to borrow and in plentiful supply, the big winners in PFI are the companys who build and then lease the property back to the user, they look to have there money back in the first half of the tenure aggrement, profit in the second half, and the best bit for them, ownership of the project always remains with the builder/developer and at the end of the agreement the stadium etc would still belong to the builder/developer. PFI was i think a Blair government iniative and was pants then and still is now.

Think you will find it was John Major's government that introduced the PFI concept in 1992, it was heavily Criticised by the then Labour opposition as it still is today.

The concept was conceived in Australia and UK and in the UK was Initially used to finance new hospital builds (Carlisle being one local example built using this model).

 

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10 hours ago, rockerlad said:

shes doesn't give a toss.

 

10 hours ago, Spike said:

Well she should. Shes useless

What would you expect her to do? She has little authority over the democratically elected local government?

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11 hours ago, Rango said:

Maybe everyone could start by asking our MP to get involved 

Too busy being Corbyn lapdog to bother herself with matters in her constituency 

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The issue all along has been nobody knows who or what figures to believe!

The stadium started off at 16 million, went to 18 million 2 weeks later, jumped to 28 million shortly after that when Sellafield 'expressed' an interest in being tenants, then jumped to 98 million once the PFI route was suggested.

Its little wonder that 'non-sporting' residents of Allerdale started to raise eyebrows at the massive jump in expenditure and total lack of transparency from the Executive in charge at the time, which the Independents and Conservatives used to their advantage at the local elections.

Like it or not, the whole episode looks like a botched attempt to rush through the stadium at any cost before the elections, as Labour must have had an inkling they were about to lose control of the council.

Anyway, we are where we are, this world cup opportunity has gone, but there will be another RL World Cup held in the UK in the next 8 or 12 years, so WE WILL see international rugby here if we have a suitable ground in future.

So, as I see it there's still options out there for discussion which could see a solution for all parties and something to keep the electorate happy.

option 1: - Review the existing scheme and include the NHS, Sellafield and whoever else in more detailed discussions. Find out exactly what these third party users require and tie them down with a contract, which includes agreed rental costs, get-out clauses, lease surrenders etc. for the full period of the loan. This will silence the doubters IF the agreements are all made up front with figures to back up any arguments.
Rather than go down the PFI route, if this is as profitable as many on here claim, then the council should borrow the full amount and use any surplus profit to plough back into local government services to make up for cuts in central government funding.
If the figures don't stack up, then the new Allerdale Executive were right all along.

Option 2: - Look at upgrades to either Derwent Park or Borough Park either as ground share or standalone clubs.
Borough Park - Give the Reds a new 25 year lease and Allerdale BC to bring in a consultant to work with the club to see how much it would cost to bring the ground up to Conference/League 2 standard. Build a new grandstand, changing rooms and bar along one side of the ground, replace all existing steelwork with something modern and also out in new turnstiles and toilets/refreshments on the popular side.
Possibly even go one further and replace the grass pitch with a synthetic one which would allow all the Reds development and Ladies side to play/train at the club which would help them to develop their own talent. 
The new lease would allow the Reds to access grand funding from Sport England, FA Development funds, so if the total cost of the scheme was 2.5 million and the Reds can get access to 50% of the funding, then the Council should make up the shortfall of £1.25 Million to bring the ground up to scratch.
Derwent Park - Allerdale to become stakeholders in the club to protect any investment.
Flatten the popular and Town end terracing, build a new stand at the popular side, and a few banks of covered terracing behind the dead ball lines at both ends. If the existing grandstand is structurally ok, then put a new roof on the existing grandstand, extend the groundfloor onto the car park to allow for refurbishment of bars, sponsors bars etc and also incorporate new office space and changing rooms.  
Sell off the remaining land behind the Town end terracing to Sellafield or whoever for office space and use any money raised to offset the cost of the Derwent Park ground redevelopment.
Still redevelop the banks of the Derwent with All weather pitch etc, river walks etc,

I'm no financial expert on these matters, but if Option 2 came in for around 5 million, with proceeds from any land sale to be deducted, then that would keep both clubs and the electorate very happy
   

 

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Some good suggestions DTTRR BUT one of the big selling points to me was the new stadium would have been a new venue and a hub for many events in the area. Both stadiums need bulldozed and started again. Income streams like corporate facilities and top quality function rooms serving good quality food is what keeps the money coming in all year round, sticking an extension on rooms that have pillars in them just isn't good enough IMO however good an idea it is.

It will be very interesting how Jenkinson and the likes can come up with a viable alternative that will deliver what is needs to yet be affordable given the lines in the sand he has drawn over this one.  It has to look something like a bus shelter for it to be in the parameters he's already set out which just won't be good enough for anyone.

I don't know how it can turn around from being £69m in the black over the lifespan in the loan to somebody else making it £44m in the red. There has to be some seriously optimistic and also pessimistic assumptions in both the reports. The question is where does the truth lie?

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The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but thats the way to bet!

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2 hours ago, Onreport said:

Think you will find it was John Major's government that introduced the PFI concept in 1992, it was heavily Criticised by the then Labour opposition as it still is today.

The concept was conceived in Australia and UK and in the UK was Initially used to finance new hospital builds (Carlisle being one local example built using this model).

 

Thanks, i stand corrected, widely used by the Blair government though, so i assumed it was there baby, but it does not detract from the scheme its still bloody awful and Mr Jenkinson is trying to use PFI to muddy the waters.

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16 minutes ago, The Voodooguru said:

 The question is where does the truth lie?

 ....... somewhere in the middle would be my guess.

I really hope it goes ahead in some form as the Council have to do something to maintain semi-professional sport in the Borough, hence my watered down suggestion above, but equally they have to be seen as supporting grassroots sports as well.

Let's not forget the other major towns of Wigton, Cockermouth, Maryport and Keswick, as well as all the villages in between.

In an ideal world all our towns and villages should all have access to sports pitches with changing facilities.

Despite the money that professional football has access to, good facilities for our local football clubs are few and far between, with Workington being the worst served town for junior football facilities. Other than the Ranch with its portacabins, what other changing facilities are in the town?     

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Despite what Jenkinson is saying this will leave West Cumbria in the dark ages as by the time they decide what they would like to do I fear at least one of our clubs may not be here to see it.

These are the same people who were against the Sports Centre being Built but look at the success that has been.

Our Independent Councillors would rather have wasted Millions patching up a facilty at Moorclose that was well passed it's sell by date and even more of the Beaten track for anyone living outside of that area.

Last time I checked the New Centre had over 8,000 paying members there are always lot's of youngsters using it when I am there and it is also now becoming very popular with the NHS providing low cost rehab for everything from Stroke and Heart to Injuries.

I know as I have been one of the People to benefit from this through my Physio.

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33 minutes ago, Cumberland Sausage said:

Last time I checked the New Centre had over 8,000 paying members there are always lot's of youngsters using it when I am there and it is also now becoming very popular with the NHS providing low cost rehab for everything from Stroke and Heart to Injuries.

I know as I have been one of the People to benefit from this through my Physio.

Genuine question ...is the new sports centre still heavily subsidised by Allerdale BC? 

If it is by how much annually and for how long?

That question isn't directly for you Sausage, I would just be interested to see how the original business case and financial projections stack up against the actual usage figures and financials now its open, as it has similarities to the stadium proposal.

The fact that the sports centre is being used by 8,000 doesn't necessarily mean its profitable without subsidies

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Reading today’s Rugby League Express makes very sad reading indeed.   It appears that because of the delay and dispute caused by this political argument that Mr Jon Dutton of the RFL and World Cup organiser will be making final arrangements to move the allocated matches to a new venue very shortly.  Not only will we have lost 3 World Cup games but also all the ancillary proceeds one area can expect from having those three games in our area.  It also states that there would have been a country “housed” in our area for the duration of their involvement but they will now be moved elsewhere.  

In the Rugby League world Cumbria has become a laughing stock after the debacle with Haven supposedly getting a new ground last time and now this.  As I see it all the figures being spouted by various people are all guesstimates and you can believe whichever suit your argument but I think it is now more certain than not that we will not be having the RL World Cup in our area this time.  

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I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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2 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

 ....... somewhere in the middle would be my guess.

I really hope it goes ahead in some form as the Council have to do something to maintain semi-professional sport in the Borough, hence my watered down suggestion above, but equally they have to be seen as supporting grassroots sports as well.

Let's not forget the other major towns of Wigton, Cockermouth, Maryport and Keswick, as well as all the villages in between.

In an ideal world all our towns and villages should all have access to sports pitches with changing facilities.

Despite the money that professional football has access to, good facilities for our local football clubs are few and far between, with Workington being the worst served town for junior football facilities. Other than the Ranch with its portacabins, what other changing facilities are in the town?     

I bet there isn't anither Town in the country the size of Workington that doesn't have a full size 3g pitch. Has anyone seen the state of the Moorclose pitches recently? Rusty goal posts, overgrown pitches and no changing facilities anymore. Maryport, Cockermouth, Cleator Moor and Whitehaven all have better facilities than Workington and it looks like that won't change anytime soon. 

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38 minutes ago, unicorn106 said:

I bet there isn't anither Town in the country the size of Workington that doesn't have a full size 3g pitch. Has anyone seen the state of the Moorclose pitches recently? Rusty goal posts, overgrown pitches and no changing facilities anymore. Maryport, Cockermouth, Cleator Moor and Whitehaven all have better facilities than Workington and it looks like that won't change anytime soon. 

There's a full size 3g or 4g pitch at lillyhall , my formerSaturday league football team use it when lowca isn't available. Bad crack when a team from Whitehaven as to use a pitch in allerdale mind.

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2 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Genuine question ...is the new sports centre still heavily subsidised by Allerdale BC? 

If it is by how much annually and for how long?

That question isn't directly for you Sausage, I would just be interested to see how the original business case and financial projections stack up against the actual usage figures and financials now its open, as it has similarities to the stadium proposal.

The fact that the sports centre is being used by 8,000 doesn't necessarily mean its profitable without subsidies

There is a lot of hidden benefits due to people exercising and living an healthier lifestyle saving the country money in the long run,you can't put a price on health and aspirations, indeed some of the most vocal against the centre and the stadium are the most unhealthy people I know 

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1 hour ago, unicorn106 said:

I bet there isn't anither Town in the country the size of Workington that doesn't have a full size 3g pitch. Has anyone seen the state of the Moorclose pitches recently? Rusty goal posts, overgrown pitches and no changing facilities anymore. Maryport, Cockermouth, Cleator Moor and Whitehaven all have better facilities than Workington and it looks like that won't change anytime soon. 

my point exactly, but the grounds with decent facilities in Cockermouth and Maryport are all owned by the rugby clubs.

Wigton and Aspatria have council owned pitches with changing rooms, not sure if they are Town Council or Allerdale 

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4 hours ago, Keith T said:

Reading today’s Rugby League Express makes very sad reading indeed.   It appears that because of the delay and dispute caused by this political argument that Mr Jon Dutton of the RFL and World Cup organiser will be making final arrangements to move the allocated matches to a new venue very shortly.  Not only will we have lost 3 World Cup games but also all the ancillary proceeds one area can expect from having those three games in our area.  It also states that there would have been a country “housed” in our area for the duration of their involvement but they will now be moved elsewhere.  

In the Rugby League world Cumbria has become a laughing stock after the debacle with Haven supposedly getting a new ground last time and now this.  As I see it all the figures being spouted by various people are all guesstimates and you can believe whichever suit your argument but I think it is now more certain than not that we will not be having the RL World Cup in our area this time.  

So that's anything between £500k and £1m lost to the area, based on the £650k profit made last time. I'm sure the local businesses desperate for trade won't be too upset by that.... 

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Very sad . Really is a great shame , it really is an honour and a fantastic boost for the area . It was great last time and this would have been even better , and generate so much income , interest , excitement and exposure .... never mind eh ? 

Edited by DavidM

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Some unexpected coverage of the stadium fiasco on Border TV tonight. Also as seems the norm with craic n' deekaboot some footage of Town getting lamped. Seems its the only time they show any. 

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11 minutes ago, Seaton Sandy said:

Some unexpected coverage of the stadium fiasco on Border TV tonight. Also as seems the norm with craic n' deekaboot some footage of Town getting lamped. Seems its the only time they show any. 

And chose to interview a couple of locals who oppose stadium plans but who had no idea why!!!!!

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Berwick Rangers preseason tour to Clachnachuddin can’t have started yet or we’d get no airtime 

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3 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Berwick Rangers preseason tour to Clachnachuddin can’t have started yet or we’d get no airtime 

Peebles and district under 12's five-a-side shinty starts next month so we'll be back in the shadows after that.........

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4 hours ago, donald said:

There's a full size 3g or 4g pitch at lillyhall , my formerSaturday league football team use it when lowca isn't available. Bad crack when a team from Whitehaven as to use a pitch in allerdale mind.

So Lowca have got one 🙄

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