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Manxmanc

New York/Ottawa Rugby League - signs of activity

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On 05/09/2019 at 11:58, ojx said:

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

rl-in-gta.png

Both maps on the same scale.

But those grounds in lancashire and yorkshire dont have  Go Train stations near to them.   Awful time folks like you would have getting to them. Better keep expansion to Oshawa and Ajax.

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20 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

But those grounds in lancashire and yorkshire dont have  Go Train stations near to them.   Awful time folks like you would have getting to them. Better keep expansion to Oshawa and Ajax.

The Go bus is fine untill the rail line makes it out there.  And Tim Hortons field is just a short jaunt on the bus from Hamilton go!

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19 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I merely asked, if there were any signs of activity in Ottawa or New York?

Please tell me which ''terrible posts'' you are referring to?

Do you mean posts I've created, or some that others have created?

I'm happy to debate my own, if you'd care to elucidate?

As far as I can remember, I don't think I've ever insulted you.

Apart from the tedious and long winded repetition of points you made many times before (in great detail), I've missed you.

 

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Reading this I think a Hamilton team would be great. A Canadian equivalent of Cas vs Leeds between Hamilton and TWP is exactly the kind of spice the gameday needs over there - would also please the traditionalist over here.

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5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Reading this I think a Hamilton team would be great. A Canadian equivalent of Cas vs Leeds between Hamilton and TWP is exactly the kind of spice the gameday needs over there - would also please the traditionalist over here.

There's already a sporting rivalry between the cities too!

The labour day classic between Toronto Argos and Hamilton to cats is huge and sold out the stadium this year

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On 05/09/2019 at 01:54, The Parksider said:

You still refuse to admit that Ottawa signing a squad of SL players from here and staging their games in Canada isn't in any way "Expansion"

There are new fans in new areas watching the game. Are fans not part of the game?

There are new media outlets covering rugby league.  Is media coverage not beneficial to the game? 

There are now more opportunities for players to earn a living. Is paying players not the raison d'etre for the game's existince?

Some of those fans, who have been watching in new areas, they or their kids may be inspired to play. At any level, amateur or making it to the NRL one day, these players wouldn't do that unless introduced to the game.

The game has expanded in every way so far, except elite level players (and the amount that are being paid enough to live has increased) and TV money.

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once again (not for you but for the open minded and realists on here) expansion is about exactly what Mr. Perez said it was back in 2016. It was Canada actually developing SL players to expand the playing pool

That was, and still is a goal. Hasn't happened yet.

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by the method of converting grid iron players to RL and not by junior development as Perez himself had failed to achieve that whilst at Canada RL.

If the game is so desperate for players, does it matter where they come from? 

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It was also Canada finding a NATV deal to share here, with Perez again on record on You Tube talking about big NATV contracts, none of which have ever come to pass with TWP actually having to pay themselves to get on TV. The failure to provide either of these measures of expansion

Yet

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has led to SL bosses openly saying they favour Toulouse because they DO develop players and there is more of a chance of a French TV deal especially with two French clubs in Superleague.

No "SL Boss" has ever changed strategies or accepted an opportunity then, eh?

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Wow, it's taken you three years to realise Rugby League here is so small we therefore don't have the resources to allow Canadian clubs to start signing up our professional players and shipping them off to Canada

**players agreeing to play for a club of their own free will, due to it being the best opportunity offered.

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, and we can't afford Canadian clubs in Superleague instead of English clubs because our SKY TV deal requires a predominantly English League, because it's English fans that pay the subs.

That deal is up for renewal soon. Who knows how the new deal will be structured?  There have never been more ways to distribute content, regardless of location.  I'm sure there is a creative,  mutually beneficial agreement that can satisfy everyone. 

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Can you guys not understand this?  The ignorance is staggering here,

Now who's being insulting? 

Quote

every Canadian club going into SL reduces the value of the SKY contract

Thats not correct.  Each club of the 12 clubs in the league would still receive their share. 

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every squad of SL players from here sent to play in Canada

**players agreeing of their own free will to dedicate their talents to a Canadian club, for reasons such as adventure, history, or just a good paycheque.

Quote

to support this charade is another English club going to the wall through a lack of players,

There are loads more players, in the UK, Aus, crossovers from North America,  union... every club gets the best players they can afford. Always have, always will. It may incentivize clubs to improve their own development structure, increase funding,  or settle at their natural level by spending only what they can.

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and their fans walking away from the game. 

I would cheer for my own teams regardless of what players they have. I also think it would be cool to see my teams play against some from other countries. A lot of sports don't have that.

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Why not deal with reality for once?

Can you not grasp

Wow, more insults to intelligence. 

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it Ray that the current SKY deal is coming to an end and the smaller replacement deal

Not fact, only speculation.  You'd think a fan would have more faith in the value of their game. The more thisnget repeated around the web, the more likely it is that Sky decides it's okay to offer less, because everyone thinks that anyway.

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will mean many of the Championship clubs going to the wall,

Clubs have survived for decades without tv money,  why are they incapable now?

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early this year there was an idea we would lose all but 20 clubs, who would play as SL1 & SL2.

See the current threads about championship clubs (Swinton) starting to look to grab those few places lest they go to the wall, see the discussions about clubs merging to save themselves from being left out of the English pro game and the smaller TV deal and structure. That isn't expansion is it Ray? It's contraction which means the end of the American dream.

Clubs go broke with frightening regularity as it is. You can't just blame it on other things happening. What if everyone ends up getting the same amount of money AND Toronto gets let into super league?  Are you going to blame a championship club going broke on TWP still?

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After some terrible posts you now seem to get it that the American dream is in fact the Perez fantasy.

New York is a joke and was from the start which is why that can was kicked down the road to 2021 when there will be no room for them anyway. The news was Ottawa were accepted for the Championship for next season

OR 2021. Both years were always an option. 

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but they and Rimmer chose not to take that opportunity citing some mystery issue that needed to be cleared up first so they pretended they would start 2021 to save face.

Thats your own spin. Negative as usual.  My own take was that the RFL was the holdup, but that could also be spin. Why speculate without facts? (For fun is the answer, but you don't seem to be having any)

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But by 2021 the reduced SKY deal

Speculation 

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and the reduction of the leagues

Speculation 

Quote

will mean many English clubs going to the wall,

Speculation 

Quote

so it's absolutely laughable that North American clubs with nothing to offer themselves in terms of TV money

Don't know that yet. Maybe TWP brings Sportsnet or TSN to the table when they make super league.

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will somehow be admitted to a reduced league structure.

Speculation 

Quote

As it stands if TWP win the play off they are set to be refused

Speculation 

Quote

in Favour of Toulouse because the SL bosses rightly want to get a French TV deal.

Want to, not guaranteed.

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New York was a joke. The laugh is the idea a few NYRL shirts on sale on line proves there is a Pro NY club turning over $$Millions on the way is laughable.

Who's to say their any farther behind than Ottawa? We're there not a hotel and other partnerships announced a while ago?

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Ottawa offer nothing to SL

New fans, new footprint,  new media, involvement of some kind with a group that actually knows how to run professional sports teams, and has existing fans to market to. Increasing the likelihood and value of a NA tv contract.

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so they declined to bother starting

*took their option to take the time to get things right 

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next year accordingly despite an alleged offer from Rimmer to do so. Rimmer wasn't going to be the one to kill them off so they've done it themselves. Expect no more from them.

Wanna put money on that?

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Finally TWP have been openly told Superleague do not want them as they need Toulouse for a french TV deal.

No, some owners have made public musings to that effect, but nit a majority,  and until there is an official statement from SL it's not decided. 

As an aside, all these owners/bosses/chairmen talk way too much for their own good. It makes them look petty and divided. All PR should go through the league, so that there is a unified front. That would taken a lot more seriously.

Quote

The result of that is TWP failing to pay their bills a long list of which appeared in League Weekly on Monday.

Gentlemen, North American "Expansion" was nothing more than Perez trying to get Argyle his own Superleague club, on his own doorstep. It ain't going to happen. Sure there was at one time a chance of real expansion there but that died when Mr. Moore failed to find any interest in the RL World Cup in North America which was therefore pulled as unviable. 

Sadly TWP, Ottawa and New York are all equally unviable................ Now let's see who wants to discuss this and who wants to be childish and throw insults???

You. See above. 

Edited by TheReaper
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37 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

There are new fans in new areas watching the game. Are fans not part of the game?

There are new media outlets covering rugby league.  Is media coverage not beneficial to the game? 

There are now more opportunities for players to earn a living. Is paying players not the raison d'etre for the game's existince?

Some of those fans, who have been watching in new areas, they or their kids may be inspired to play. At any level, amateur or making it to the NRL one day, these players wouldn't do that unless introduced to the game.

The game has expanded in every way so far, except elite level players (and the amount that are being paid enough to live has increased) and TV money.

That was, and still is a goal. Hasn't happened yet.

If the game is so desperate for players, does it matter where they come from? 

Yet

No "SL Boss" has ever changed strategies or accepted an opportunity then, eh?

**players agreeing to play for a club of their own free will, due to it being the best opportunity offered.

That deal is up for renewal soon. Who knows how the new deal will be structured?  There have never been more ways to distribute content, regardless of location.  I'm sure there is a creative,  mutually beneficial agreement that can satisfy everyone. 

Now who's being insulting? 

Thats not correct.  Each club of the 12 clubs in the league would still receive their share. 

**players agreeing of their own free will to dedicate their talents to a Canadian club, for reasons such as adventure, history, or just a good paycheque.

There are loads more players, in the UK, Aus, crossovers from North America,  union... every club gets the best players they can afford. Always have, always will. It may incentivize clubs to improve their own development structure, increase funding,  or settle at their natural level by spending only what they can.

I would cheer for my own teams regardless of what players they have. I also think it would be cool to see my teams play against some from other countries. A lot of sports don't have that.

Wow, more insults to intelligence. 

Not fact, only speculation.  You'd think a fan would have more faith in the value of their game. The more thisnget repeated around the web, the more likely it is that Sky decides it's okay to offer less, because everyone thinks that anyway.

Clubs have survived for decades without tv money,  why are they incapable now?

Clubs go broke with frightening regularity as it is. You can't just blame it on other things happening. What if everyone ends up getting the same amount of money AND Toronto gets let into super league?  Are you going to blame a championship club going broke on TWP still?

OR 2021. Both years were always an option. 

Thats your own spin. Negative as usual.  My own take was that the RFL was the holdup, but that could also be spin. Why speculate without facts? (For fun is the answer, but you don't seem to be having any)

Speculation 

Speculation 

Speculation 

Don't know that yet. Maybe TWP brings Sportsnet or TSN to the table when they make super league.

Speculation 

Speculation 

Want to, not guaranteed.

Who's to say their any farther behind than Ottawa? We're there not a hotel and other partnerships announced a while ago?

New fans, new footprint,  new media, involvement of some kind with a group that actually knows how to run professional sports teams, and has existing fans to market to. Increasing the likelihood and value of a NA tv contract.

*took their option to take the time to get things right 

Wanna put money on that?

No, some owners have made public musings to that effect, but nit a majority,  and until there is an official statement from SL it's not decided. 

As an aside, all these owners/bosses/chairmen talk way too much for their own good. It makes them look petty and divided. All PR should go through the league, so that there is a unified front. That would taken a lot more seriously.

You. See above. 

Excellent post. Unfortunately, it will be completely ignored by the OP.

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6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Reading this I think a Hamilton team would be great. A Canadian equivalent of Cas vs Leeds between Hamilton and TWP is exactly the kind of spice the gameday needs over there - would also please the traditionalist over here.

Unfortunately, Torontonians think that their city has outgrown having rivalries with much smaller places such as Hamilton so a Hamilton team wouldn't be so great.  It's among the reasons why the CFL has struggled in Toronto for a long time now.

I'm inclined to wonder how many Loiners still think that a legitimate rivalry can exist with a place like Castleford nowadays too.

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6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Reading this I think a Hamilton team would be great. A Canadian equivalent of Cas vs Leeds between Hamilton and TWP is exactly the kind of spice the gameday needs over there - would also please the traditionalist over here.

It would be if we were overflowing with top quality RL players 

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1 hour ago, TboneFromTO said:

There's already a sporting rivalry between the cities too!

The labour day classic between Toronto Argos and Hamilton to cats is huge and sold out the stadium this year

The Cats sell out yes no question the reason is a few

1)A massive hate towards anything Toronto

2)They take great pride in the current teams as they have lost far to many.

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Unfortunately, Torontonians think that their city has outgrown having rivalries with much smaller places such as Hamilton so a Hamilton team wouldn't be so great.  It's among the reasons why the CFL has struggled in Toronto for a long time now.

I'm inclined to wonder how many Loiners still think that a legitimate rivalry can exist with a place like Castleford nowadays too.

Hamilton to many in Toronto is what New Jersey is to New York.

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7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Reading this I think a Hamilton team would be great. A Canadian equivalent of Cas vs Leeds between Hamilton and TWP is exactly the kind of spice the gameday needs over there - would also please the traditionalist over here.

This would not make the game look good trust me on this.

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11 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

This would not make the game look good trust me on this.

 

15 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

The Cats sell out yes no question the reason is a few

1)A massive hate towards anything Toronto

2)They take great pride in the current teams as they have lost far to many.

 

 

 

It would be popular - another way to beat the t.dot.

I don't trust you, as a Torontonion who's spent a fair amount of time in the hammer it would be a great city for RL, it's also similar to the heartlands as it's a working class town (steel industry).  and it would have most of Canada behind it if they played twp !  (For those who don't know the rest of Canada has a general disdain for Toronto, not unlike certain members of this forum!)

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6 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

 

It would be popular - another way to beat the t.dot.

I don't trust you, as a Torontonion who's spent a fair amount of time in the hammer it would be a great city for RL, it's also similar to the heartlands as it's a working class town (steel industry).  and it would have most of Canada behind it if they played twp !  (For those who don't know the rest of Canada has a general disdain for Toronto, not unlike certain members of this forum!)

I am not saying Hamilton is a bad city its not but people in Toronto don't care and that is part the issue at how bad support was when Hamilton played in York.

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7 hours ago, RugbyLeagueMan said:

Not sure how 'expansion' of a brand is shrinkage....I think people are running ahead of themselves. Let's just see what happens eh?

Just changing a name isn't expansion of a brand.

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8 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

I am not saying Hamilton is a bad city its not but people in Toronto don't care and that is part the issue at how bad support was when Hamilton played in York.

Home stadium, home problem my friend!

 York's highest attendance this year is still below forges lowest (and HFXs too)...

 

 

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Notable exceptions to Hamilton's hatred of Toronto:

1) Maple Leafs

2) Raptors

3) Blue Jays

I have no idea if anybody in Hamilton cares about TFC or even knows TWP exists

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5 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

Home stadium, home problem my friend!

 York's highest attendance this year is still below forges lowest (and HFXs too)...

 

 

Aren't York9 building their own stadium somewhere in, well, York, instead of York U, which isn't in York?

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I have no idea if anybody in Hamilton cares about TFC or even knows TWP exists

They do. Our Toronto centric media, and culture of supporting TO teams, means awareness spreads far. A coworker of mine who grew up in Waterloo, who was working with me in Woodstock, mentioned to me he heard about TWP starting, before they ever played a game, because he knew I was into rugby. I think most who are "sports fans" would know about them.

 

And TFC fandom made it out to the SWO boonies almost as soon as they started. I was in high school 2007-2011 and definitely knew about TFC and I wasn't into soccer at all. And now that I live in Hamilton, TFC stuff is definitely seen being worn out and about. It was definitely the most seen soccer team before CPL, but that has been blown away by Forge FC support now.

People just always know Toronto franchises.

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13 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Unfortunately, Torontonians think that their city has outgrown having rivalries with much smaller places such as Hamilton so a Hamilton team wouldn't be so great.  It's among the reasons why the CFL has struggled in Toronto for a long time now.

I'm inclined to wonder how many Loiners still think that a legitimate rivalry can exist with a place like Castleford nowadays too.

As a Loiner, I'd say our rivalry with Cas is based on mutual derision and closeness. Its big fancy city vs working class town. Have's vs have nots (in terms of the clubs). A classic is that they are all Royston Vasey-esque villagers with extra fingers. Every time they play us its their grand final is another. They do genuinely love getting one over on us and have also been a quality team for much of the past decade, so the games have all been relatively high quality. I played a lot of my junior rugby in Cas and its all banter. Cas away is one of my favourites to go to, not because of the facilities but I do love to see us beat them at there place and its usually rocking. Everyone likes to see Leeds lose, but with Cas fans that just seems more acute!

Wakefield have a similar relationship when they're doing well. All year Wakefield fans that come into my work have been giving me chat because I'm a Rhino about being relegated - slightly ironic now!

12 hours ago, Jayme2020 said:

This would not make the game look good trust me on this.

It's precisely that attitude from Torontonians why it should perhaps come in. RL thrives on stories of the underdogs (and in many cases a bit of bitterness and parochial envy too). I think that is in part due to the constant brutally honest physical nature of the game. 

In any case, to broaden the appeal in Canada, a 'not Toronto' team seems appealing.

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Just noted that Matthew Shaw has reported some news on New York on the news page of this site, or here to save you time.

It looks like the New York bid team are on a fact-finding visit to Lamport this weekend. The tone of the report is positive in reporting that New York's entry point of 2021 is nailed on. Surprisingly, and this has been mentioned recently, Eric Perez is apparently still referring to to a target for entry in 2020. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Manxmanc said:

Just noted that Matthew Shaw has reported some news on New York on the news page of this site, or here to save you time.

It looks like the New York bid team are on a fact-finding visit to Lamport this weekend. The tone of the report is positive in reporting that New York's entry point of 2021 is nailed on. Surprisingly, and this has been mentioned recently, Eric Perez is apparently still referring to to a target for entry in 2020. 

 

Sounds like an excuse for a p*** up in the beer garden to me!

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5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

As a Loiner, I'd say our rivalry with Cas is based on mutual derision and closeness. Its big fancy city vs working class town. Have's vs have nots (in terms of the clubs). A classic is that they are all Royston Vasey-esque villagers with extra fingers. Every time they play us its their grand final is another. They do genuinely love getting one over on us and have also been a quality team for much of the past decade, so the games have all been relatively high quality. I played a lot of my junior rugby in Cas and its all banter. Cas away is one of my favourites to go to, not because of the facilities but I do love to see us beat them at there place and its usually rocking. Everyone likes to see Leeds lose, but with Cas fans that just seems more acute!

Wakefield have a similar relationship when they're doing well. All year Wakefield fans that come into my work have been giving me chat because I'm a Rhino about being relegated - slightly ironic now!

So from the Castleford and Wakefield side of things it's still a rivalry, just as Hamiltonians here still see Toronto as their big rival.  Is it still seen as a rivalry from the Leeds side of things though, or do Loiners look to teams from bigger places and/or places further away for that instead nowadays like Torontonians do?

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1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

So from the Castleford and Wakefield side of things it's still a rivalry, just as Hamiltonians here still see Toronto as their big rival.  Is it still seen as a rivalry from the Leeds side of things though, or do Loiners look to teams from bigger places and/or places further away for that instead nowadays like Torontonians do?

I think its a bit of a case of if we beat them its what we should do, but when we lose we get the mick taken. 

Living and playing in and around Wakey/Cas obviously that rivalry is accented.

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