Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

The reality is it’s down to clubs to develop players and for governing bodies to develop the international game for those players.

That’s how it’s worked here for the past 125 years or so, no? 

I absolutely take on board what you say about the potential benefits to SL.

If SLE can attract new, multinational, paying sponsors etc that would obviously be great.

Not guaranteed with one Canadian outpost and Betfred & others being so prominent but maybe.

If they win the MPG, TWP are a worth a shot (if the 11 other clubs aren’t on the hook for unpaid bills etc) but without player development they will always be a novelty act in my view.

And due to the salary cap, they are likely to be an unsuccessful novelty act. They will need to develop their own players.

Surely they can see this. So why no plans?

The reality is, it is entirely possible to create a team with no locals. That is why they are doing it. They even beat Leeds last year, in year 2. 

On the rest of your point, I agree, and I expect player development to happen with TWP and hopefully others, but patience is required. But SLE shouldn't necessarily demand that as a requirement of entry. 

[Davo5]

The chuckle brothers are up early I see.

[Pulga]

Imagine suggesting 5 or 10 years is too long to have seen little results when you have English clubs that are 125+ years old struggling for sponsors, relevance and crowds in the vicinity of five figures.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Just how many many times.

Well someone called you a yawn troll the other day and I said you weren't but reading your post just now I do think you'd be better on the cross-code nonsense where people who are interested go to see how wonderful yoonion is. If Twickers advertises for a marketing manager I think you'd be a perfect fit.

But whatever you think of TGG it's back to ignore for only one reason and I quote "Just how many many times." frankly Parky I'm bored.

[Man of Kent]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The reality is, it is entirely possible to create a team with no locals. That is why they are doing it. They even beat Leeds last year, in year 2. 

Agreed and that wasn’t in dispute.

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On the rest of your point, I agree, and I expect player development to happen with TWP and hopefully others, but patience is required. But SLE shouldn't necessarily demand that as a requirement of entry. 

I think they should at least be asked to present a credible plan for player development in lieu of not having a reserve team. Of course, if they are serious they’d already have one (a plan).

[TboneFromTO]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

We are seriously in danger here of letting this go too far and becoming a complete laughing stock when the bubble bursts, can you grasp the enormity of the absurdity here? RL failed in North America the day they pulled the world cup. Union will get that instead so it's over - we have to stop fooling ourselves

Grade A trolling. Super funny.  Always brighten my day parkie

 

[TboneFromTO]

3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I think they should at least be asked to present a credible plan for player development. Of course, if they are serious they’d already have one

I think there is an issue with player development you aren't quite taking into consideration.  Who do they play?  It's all fine and dandy for UK youth clubs who have to travel a short distance to their opponents, but Toronto would literally have to create a youth league.

I believe the current evolution makes sense, a few youth clubs have started popping up, when a few more the twp could help organise them into rep teams (like an easy v west thing) and it will go from there.  It's strange to me that TWP get the stick for not developing players, when CRL appear to be doing even less

The major league sports don't run youth academies over in NA, it's weird to them that it's an expectation they do.  

They are promoting rugby league with their presence on and off the pitch (I do wish they were there off the pitch a bit more thou)

[Davo5]

They don’t play RL in Canada,oh really Parky

[Omott91]

9 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

They don’t play RL in Canada,oh really Parky

People always suspected it but at least this forums worst kept secret is out and that is that Parky's a profesional union troll. 

[Dave T]

33 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Agreed and that wasn’t in dispute.

I think they should at least be asked to present a credible plan for player development in lieu of not having a reserve team. Of course, if they are serious they’d already have one (a plan).

Yes, I dont disagree that there should at least be the makings of a plan, but I'm ok with that plan being developing players outside of Canada, as long as the plan is for adding players to the pot.

I think it then becomes an opportunity for CRL to work with them and create joint plans.

So I dont disagree with the principle that this should be a chance to develop more players, including in Canada, but I dont agree that a lack of it makes them a novelty or that SLE should have it as a condition.

[Harry Stottle]

On 24/09/2019 at 20:01, Tre Cool said:

This is such rubbish.  An elite pro sports club can exist and be a success without player development.  Hopefully one leads to another but it doesn't make them a "novelty act" in any way.

I would agree with that statement if the sport was awash with player development from all other angles, in Rugby League it is most definatley not the case, in the British game we have 12 'elite' clubs as you put it, everyone one of those should be made to comply unequivocally without question to contribute with 'Player Development' to an already diminishing production line, 90ish player's are recruited from the Southern Hemisphere in our leagues to assist our inadequacy to produce enough of our own, adding a team incapable of pressing the 'on button' on the production conveyor belt does not help.

Sorry if I upset anyone but the number one criteria to me for entry into SL should be PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, and I include Salford and either of the Hull clubs in that statement if they still share an academy that is, they should have one each, no club should be allowed to fail to comply with player development, we have in fact in many areas got a contraction of our game not expansion in the true sense of expanding the game with more participants, this needs reversing or the game will suffer irreparable damage in the not to distant future. 

There is simply to much lack of interest or concern on this subject it should be the top priority of our Governing body to re-employ the development officers and of all our elite clubs to get out into the communitues to assist and promote the game.

[Harry Stottle]

On 28/09/2019 at 02:38, ChoboMog said:

I fundamentally disagree, as I am sure many others here would, that viewing expansion as a zero sum game makes sense.  It is a truly flawed calculus.  Not only are there easily players for more that 12 professional clubs, the increased opportunity to turn professional provides significant incentive for youngsters to follow their dream, for those down under to maybe give the Northern Hemisphere a try etc.  Similarly, the single best way to foster new player development, RU-to-RL player conversion, and even the to date mythical NFL/CFL gridiorn-to-RL conversion of players is to have the combination of exposure and opportunity, both of which North American expansion provides.  I won't pretend those benefits will be seen overnight, or even within a year or two; but for anyone thinking long term, here, playing the long game, those benefits are undeniable.

Of course many others who pen these pages would agree with you, but irrespective of your writing and summaries, please relate to us (me) what is the expierience you have that enables it to be all so simple.

Read the letter above, we really do have a crisis looming,  those of us who have been at the pointy end know and can identify with what I have said, irrespective of Perez leaving TWP it was he said the conversation of North American sportsmen would be an easy transition, the fact is after all the publicity and trials that took place non was found, and that was when TWP could have introduced these player's into their team, that opportunity has been missed. So please tell me how many would have to be 'converted' to set up a breeding ground for these guy's to be nurtured from possibles to actuals, they have to be provided with meaningful competition and progression through better standards to improve, or are they going to hit the ground running?

You have got it all wrong RL is a generic product, it requires time to nurture and grow and evlove you are correct it doesnt happen overnight as you say, long term then, how about 2 to three generations, and that being a generation is 20 years.

 

[Harry Stottle]

On 27/09/2019 at 02:17, frank said:

Parksider's comments  fall flat when he tries to compare a sport(Union) that has has been established for  years in North America with a sport in it's infancy there League.Despite his attempts ridicule the progress being made there the signs are good for League.

Toronto's gates are building nicely, despite playing in the Championship and will continue to do so with their admittance to SL..Ottawa and New York could be in the mix shortly.

Leave your predictions for another 10 years Parksider and then  your not wasting your time and that of others.

Gawd help us M'lud,

If anyone backing these bids are fool hardy enough to invest in such a venture without first looking at what will become of TWP either being a wonderful success or abject failure in the next 3 years at the very least they have either to much money or are completely devoid of any sense, and we all know that is not the case we have been informed hundreds of times by our Canadian contributors that they are very astute buisness people over there, we shall see.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

The chuckle brothers are up early I see.

Got two games to watch this morning haven't they

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Gawd help us M'lud,

If anyone backing these bids are fool hardy enough to invest in such a venture without first looking at what will become of TWP either being a wonderful success or abject failure in the next 3 years at the very least they have either to much money or are completely devoid of any sense, and we all know that is not the case we have been informed hundreds of times by our Canadian contributors that they are very astute buisness people over there, we shall see.

I do think this is the reason the Ottawa development has delayed. There are a couple of big hurdles for TWP to overcome, I think it is sensible to see if they get into SL first and how they go. 

There has also been the talk from SLE of minimum numbers of UK teams, so it is sensible to iron these things out now rather than build a club and have issues in 3 years.

[Harry Stottle]

On 27/09/2019 at 07:55, Mushy said:

I only dip in and out of this thread and can’t quite believe that it’s gone on for so many pages. Then again given a couple of the contributors delights at saying the same thing over and over perhaps I shouldn’t be so surprised. 

For what it’s worth, I’ve watched most of Toronto’s games on TV, I wouldn’t have done the same for many of the other non SL teams. Because they are actually a good team, are good to watch on the pitch with an atmosphere off the pitch that comes through really well on TV too. I’m also proud to tell family and friends I am watching Toronto. It changes their perception of our sport positively, and that should translate into more money for the sport as a whole. 

Elstone wasn’t a great CEO at Everton, and I saw at first hand where he was out of his depth. But he is a Leaguie and he loves the sport. He is still a lot more qualified than many others to handle his current role and I believe he has a long term plan that he is implementing to transform the commercial success of Super League, and that could well include getting new clubs in that will pay for the privilege and improve the overall image and brand attractiveness of the sport.

Personally I would have considered a franchising arrangement for non-heartlands clubs as a means of expanding the sport, encouraging new investment and retaining traditional systems for the rest of the sport. It would need a strategy and active engagement by SL though, rather than the reactive approach they have and the fascination some have that they might lose 1% of their revenue by having fewer visiting fans. 

Guess what Mushy, heard/read that loads and loads before (with the exception of your personal take on Elstone) the difference is there are those readily availble to slap you on the back, wave the flag, bang the drum and give it a 'like'.

 

[Pulga]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10024970/toronto-wolfpack-believe-they-will-be-eligible-for-super-league-this-week/

[Harry Stottle]

21 hours ago, Dave T said:

Me too. But from a pure TWP attractiveness to SLE point of view we need to be careful that we dont demand too much. Developing the game in a country shouldn't be left to one country. We have seen with Catalans that does little.

And being that Country that Catalan plays in has a near 90 year history in the game, has pkayed in test matches, taken part in and accepted touring teams, has an active semi-professional league, and an amateur league and is played in some schools.

Now I just might be missing something, but what do you mean by demanding to much, what do you believe constitutes development of the game in Canada, don't get confused with taking the circus to town, that is not development.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry if I upset anyone but the number one criteria to me for entry into SL should be PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, and I include Salford and either of the Hull clubs in that statement if they still share an academy that is, they should have one each, no club should be allowed to fail to comply with player development, we have in fact in many areas got a contraction of our game not expansion in the true sense of expanding the game with more participants, this needs reversing or the game will suffer irreparable damage in the not to distant future. 

How do you reverse that Harry? If we're contracting in "heartland" areas along the M62 then that logically means what we offer is not appealing to enough youngsters in those areas that have been traditionally relied upon.

Solutions?

Change the game - RL is too tough to be dropped into compared to union or football - especially with the growing uniformity in players physique, ie. Big and Physical. Make the level of entry easier. 

Change the game - the SL clubs and those below aren't inspiring the next generation (or at least enough of them) to want to take up the game. Solution seems either change the clubs or change how they are selling themselves. New clubs with a broader geographical spread are a no-brainer for me in this. More opportunities and more varied opportunities to play. A FT club like Toronto adding a bit of glitz and glam help this but it is a joint effort. Football is popular in this country because the top clubs and players are popular, but it is strong because there are hundreds of thousands of small football clubs and 5 a side pitches. There's no single silver bullet, but there does need to be a cohesive recognition of the value of each facet of the game. 

Diversify the player pool - look for and work to create players in more areas. The Heartlands are weakening and should that well ever dry up the effect could be catastrophic. Now whilst of course that means they must be shored up, we must as a game aim to diversify our player pool. The success of London's academy and the number of players across the Channel should be a great place to start looking. There's a huge amount - a majority in fact - of our own country that most of our clubs don't even look at. Its ridiculous that if around 5 or 6 postcode areas stopped playing RL our game could cease to function.

 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

And being that Country that Catalan plays in has a near 90 year history in the game, has pkayed in test matches, taken part in and accepted touring teams, has an active semi-professional league, and an amateur league and is played in some schools.

Now I just might be missing something, but what do you mean by demanding to much, what do you believe constitutes development of the game in Canada, don't get confused with taking the circus to town, that is not development.

Harry 90 years ago there was no junior development in France. I massively doubt there was much, if any, 87 years ago either. That's effectively where we are with Canada.

[Harry Stottle]

43 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Got two games to watch this morning haven't they

Please tell me what games would those be Tommy, I have watched all 4 games this weekend inc the two Aussie semi's, and awaiting tonights game with great anticipation?

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Please tell me what games would those be Tommy, I have watched all 4 games this weekend inc the two Aussie semi's, and awaiting tonights game with great anticipation?

Watch the national news Harry, they'll mention it for sure as a Home nations side beat an old sporting enemy of ours.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Harry 90 years ago there was no junior development in France. I massively doubt there was much, if any, 87 years ago either. That's effectively where we are with Canada.

Have you read "The Forbidden Game" Tommy, if you have you will realise that there were a number of active union clubs who readily wanted to change codes and did so after the visit of Salford in Oct/Nov 1934 to play in 6 games, if you have not read it, try it as a reference point then come back to me.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Watch the national news Harry, they'll mention it for sure as a Home nations side beat an old sporting enemy of ours.

No please tell me Tommy, if you mean the Rugger jamboree I have no interest in it at all like I have no interest in the round ball game, I neither listen, watch or read anything to do with either of them, and it was as you say watching the national news that I was first informed that it was taking place, and ho I forgot two mentions on this site a Wigginer mentioned a game being played in the Saints v Wigan thread, and Moderator CKN put a locked thread - joke - about it, now then young man, even knowing that there are two games being played this morning must have got your interest.

 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you read "The Forbidden Game" Tommy, if you have you will realise that there were a number of active union clubs who readily wanted to change codes and did so after the visit of Salford in Oct/Nov 1934 to play in 6 games, if you have not read it, try it as a reference point then come back to me.

I have actually. I referenced how it offered a unique prism through which to view the history of a country during the Nazi occupation of Europe in my personal statement for both my undergraduate and Masters degrees. Its a book I place a lot of value on. Mark Rylance also used to teach at my old school - but retired before I started.

I think it would be disingenuous to say that that was junior development Harry. It wasn't like these teams were running u8s teams is it? The meaning of sport 'clubs' has changed massively in the past century. 

But taking your summation in reference to Toronto then. Are you expecting the Toronto/Ontario based Union teams to wholesale switch over to RL?