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Tex Evans Thigh

Toronto Academy/Reserves

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2 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Several people missing the point. This isn't about what Toronto should contribute vs what traditional clubs contribute, it's about how they can enhance their own operation through youth development.

I assume every sane person believes bringing through players is a good thing and I think Toronto are in a unique position to develop very good youth set-up on both sides of the Atlantic. It would be interesting to hear if they have any plans in this regard.

They could certainly have a short term aim of teams in the UK system bringing through UK based players and a longer term Canadian/North American plan running concurrently. 

Any sane person wouldn't think it's an issue at this stage of their development 

Maybe not getting relegated is a wee bit more important 

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1 minute ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Several people missing the point. This isn't about what Toronto should contribute vs what traditional clubs contribute, it's about how they can enhance their own operation through youth development.

I assume every sane person believes bringing through players is a good thing and I think Toronto are in a unique position to develop very good youth set-up on both sides of the Atlantic. It would be interesting to hear if they have any plans in this regard.

They could certainly have a short term aim of teams in the UK system bringing through UK based players and a longer term Canadian/North American plan running concurrently. 

There was a plan...there is a good plan...but then SL stole our share of the central funding...that is where we are at.

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Out of interest how many of Catalans team.are French?

Edit 12 out of 30 ?

Lol 

And league has been played there for almost 100 years and they've been in super league for ages 

Edited by aj1908

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14 hours ago, Moove said:

Re an academy, I don't see that being particularly viable or worthwhile for them without a community or college structure to support it. Neither of those are going to get to a useful level any time soon though regardless of immediate funding. However I do think it's important to invest in that community or college structure now if there is any intention to grow the sport in Canada longer term. Even if the quality is low and none make SL level for 20+ years, it's still engagement with the next generation of TWP fans and more exposure for the sport.

The other thing they could maybe look at in the medium term is something like a scholarship set up. They have a top quality university which might be particularly attractive to prospective players both here and in Aus. There's a wider sport benefit there as it gives us an opportunity to retain players who might otherwise give the sport up when they reach that age. There'd be the coaching network etc to sort out but it's certainly something I'd be looking at.

Re reserves, recruiting a team would be easy enough but given the travel involved during the bulk of the season they'd either have to take the hit on costs or base them permanently in the UK. I don't really see much point in either. They'd probably be better making use of the loan system where required in the short term at least. Or potentially use the link-up with London Skolars as a dual-reg/reserves sort of thing.

FWIW I'd make a significant chunk of collective funding (from TV/commercial deals) reserved for community/academy investment for all clubs. The idea that TWP should have structures anything like 100+ year old clubs is daft, but I'd like to see similar levels of investment in this stuff across all clubs, TWP included. I don't have a problem with TWP having leeway with this though for as long as SL prevent them from an equal share of collective commercial income (I wonder how the spending of that is going...)

I appreciate what you are saying but disagree with most of it. 

The first part is not what I was suggesting. It would obviously take a long time for Canadian players to come through, if any did at all, but they should probably look to do what you are suggesting and try and increase engagement. No reason they can't be doing that now (if they aren't already).

There is also no reason they couldn't set up a fully UK based academy. Almost all their players are English, so why not pitch up somewhere and start bringing players through. They would almost certainly have SL quality players coming through within a couple of years with the right recruitment. This would help massively with the squad/cap/optics.

I kind of agree on the reserves and Skolars could be the way around this but they would only really get the full benefits if they had the academy to supply players. It doesn't really have too many benefits if they are just sending first team squad players on loan.

With this structure it would allow them to slowly develop NA players with less pressure and those that are good enough move over to the UK to continue their development.


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5 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Any sane person wouldn't think it's an issue at this stage of their development 

Maybe not getting relegated is a wee bit more important 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.


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6 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

There was a plan...there is a good plan...but then SL stole our share of the central funding...that is where we are at.

So Toronto can't afford it?

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6 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Out of interest how many of Catalans team.are French?

Edit 12 out of 30 ?

Lol 

And league has been played there for almost 100 years and they've been in super league for ages 

What's your point? 


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2 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

What's your point? 

Well if after 90.years France can't produce that many local players what do we.expect Toronto to produce?

Let's be realistic 

Training a fully pro league player isn't easy 

Toronto probably won't produce any decent players for ten years 

Sure they can get some local.union players But then they wouldn't win any games 

 

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14 hours ago, Big Picture said:

They also wouldn't be allowed 13 Canadians under the quota rules now.

Is that a fact?

https://www.rugby-league.com/flipbooks/2019-operational-rules-tiers-1-3/mobile/index.html#p=107

Section C1:4:2

In the case of Toronto Wolfpack, the Board has deemed that Players with Canadian, American or Jamaican passports shall not count towards the number of overseas players which can be signed by the club.

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27 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Is that a fact?

https://www.rugby-league.com/flipbooks/2019-operational-rules-tiers-1-3/mobile/index.html#p=107

Section C1:4:2

In the case of Toronto Wolfpack, the Board has deemed that Players with Canadian, American or Jamaican passports shall not count towards the number of overseas players which can be signed by the club.

Very interesting that, has that changed from when they started?  I seem to remember the quota limits being mentioned as a deterrent to signing North Americans and part of the reason for the eventual release of the few whom they had on the roster.

The ruling you quoted there does give them the opportunity of signing some Canadian RU players to increase their roster as under the New Talent Pool Dispensation they'd be outside the salary cap for the first year and only count at 50% of their salary for the second year.

Edited by Big Picture

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3 hours ago, aj1908 said:

Because there's a marquee player allowance and they can?

And Developing juniors doesn't help them.not getting relegated ?

Comes down to traditional growth from the bottom UK model vs top-down NAM growth model. The Negs here have seen such a thing work so are convinced it won't/can't work

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22 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Very interesting that, has that changed from when they started?  I seem to remember the quota limits being mentioned as a deterrent to signing North Americans and part of the reason for the eventual release of the few whom they had on the roster.

The ruling you quoted there does give them the opportunity of signing some Canadian RU players to increase their roster as under the New Talent Pool Dispensation they'd be outside the salary cap for the first year and only count at 50% of their salary for the second year.

I'm not sure when that change was made, that is the 2019 regulation, I don't have access to the 2018 one to see if it was in then.

It should be noted that clubs are limited to 2 New Talent/Returning players each. 

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure when that change was made, that is the 2019 regulation, I don't have access to the 2018 one to see if it was in then.

It should be noted that clubs are limited to 2 New Talent/Returning players each. 

So much for Toronto turning to converts from RU or gridiron to boost their roster then.  They're forced to rely mostly on established RL players by the roster rules, and like London they have to pay more to get them to sign which means that they can't fit 25 players under the salary cap as the traditional clubs can, thus they only have 23 players on their books now.

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3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

So much for Toronto turning to converts from RU or gridiron to boost their roster then.  They're forced to rely mostly on established RL players by the roster rules, and like London they have to pay more to get them to sign which means that they can't fit 25 players under the salary cap as the traditional clubs can, thus they only have 23 players on their books now.

Exactly.  Dispensation NOW!

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4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

So much for Toronto turning to converts from RU or gridiron to boost their roster then.  They're forced to rely mostly on established RL players by the roster rules, and like London they have to pay more to get them to sign which means that they can't fit 25 players under the salary cap as the traditional clubs can, thus they only have 23 players on their books now.

I don't think they are using the 2 exemptions though are they, so they aren't being forced? I really do think the Skolars partnership was the most sensible way of dealing with needing 5-8 young players throughout the season.

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1 hour ago, aj1908 said:

Well if after 90.years France can't produce that many local players what do we.expect Toronto to produce?

Let's be realistic 

Training a fully pro league player isn't easy 

Toronto probably won't produce any decent players for ten years 

Sure they can get some local.union players But then they wouldn't win any games 

 

Given most of their squad is English and will be for the foreseeable future, why not attempt to bring English players through an academy? That is the question.


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They have IMO overspent massively on some players! they were offering silly money out for players just to have the best squad in the championship and now it has come back to bite them on the back side.

 

Example of this would be Gaz O Brien who had his salary doubled when he left salford to join them! only needs a couple more of them and its not hard to see why they are now struggling!

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't think they are using the 2 exemptions though are they, so they aren't being forced? I really do think the Skolars partnership was the most sensible way of dealing with needing 5-8 young players throughout the season.

This seems like the most sensible first step as it's already there but they also need an avenue to bring players through rather than just plucking some 25 year old from USARL and hoping for the best. 

A UK academy would help this, especially if based in North London and they put some money into development. The London production line was starting to look good until the UK sport funding was pulled. Skolars would obviously benefit as well.

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17 minutes ago, To Be Confirmed said:

They have IMO overspent massively on some players! they were offering silly money out for players just to have the best squad in the championship and now it has come back to bite them on the back side.

Bingo.

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7 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

That’s another thing I don’t understand They spent so much on SBW imagine if they spent that on junior development and growing the game.

SBW signing has probably got more youth attention and column inches than any signing by any super league club in the past 15 years.

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17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

SBW signing has probably got more youth attention and column inches than any signing by any super league club in the past 15 years.

Completely this. 

Has any other club generated this much attention on their media day since the start of SL? I certainly can't think of any. 

There are lots of accusations that you can throw at Toronto Wolfpack but the one thing that is undeniable is that they get people talking - and not just RL people. All 12 clubs have had or are about to have their pre-season media day - 11 of them have passed or will pass with barely a murmer - maybe a cliche-riddled interview in a local rag with a dwindling circulation, but that's about it. 

Don't be fooled into thinking that the comments we've been seeing from McDermott and Noble recently aren't part of a deliberate strategy. This is the setting of a carefully-crafted narrative.

TW have set out to create this image of a 'disruptor' in RL. They're deliberately trying to create a 'seige mentality' narrative. They're deliberately trying to pitch themselves as ambitious trailblazors and innovators, going up against a tired, dated, and unaspirational band of clubs who are fearful of them and don't want them to succeed.

When people bang on about how this sport needs better marketing, this is better marketing in the sport - a club deliberately creating a story that they know will get people talking. It's something that every club should be doing, but very few are. 

SBW is box office. He'll put bums on seats in Canada, in France and in the UK. As an investment, he's a safe bet and he'll do more for the Super League and the club than any investment in youth development. 

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36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

SBW signing has probably got more youth attention and column inches than any signing by any super league club in the past 15 years.

I work for an international media organisation whose sports coverage is run by a bunch of union fanatics. 

Today, for the first time in at least the 14 years that I've been there, we published domestic UK rugby league story that wasn't about drugs or a cross code issue. All about SBW and Toronto in SL. I never thought I'd see the day. 

(Oh and by the way the interview was done at the Manchester City media facility. So many resources in the northwest just crying out to be linked up with) 

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21 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Completely this. 

Has any other club generated this much attention on their media day since the start of SL? I certainly can't think of any. 

There are lots of accusations that you can throw at Toronto Wolfpack but the one thing that is undeniable is that they get people talking - and not just RL people. All 12 clubs have had or are about to have their pre-season media day - 11 of them have passed or will pass with barely a murmer - maybe a cliche-riddled interview in a local rag with a dwindling circulation, but that's about it. 

Don't be fooled into thinking that the comments we've been seeing from McDermott and Noble recently aren't part of a deliberate strategy. This is the setting of a carefully-crafted narrative.

TW have set out to create this image of a 'disruptor' in RL. They're deliberately trying to create a 'seige mentality' narrative. They're deliberately trying to pitch themselves as ambitious trailblazors and innovators, going up against a tired, dated, and unaspirational band of clubs who are fearful of them and don't want them to succeed.

When people bang on about how this sport needs better marketing, this is better marketing in the sport - a club deliberately creating a story that they know will get people talking. It's something that every club should be doing, but very few are. 

SBW is box office. He'll put bums on seats in Canada, in France and in the UK. As an investment, he's a safe bet and he'll do more for the Super League and the club than any investment in youth development. 

Why is everybody against us?  Why are we always the underwolf?

When are we going to start to be treated fairly? 

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24 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Completely this. 

Has any other club generated this much attention on their media day since the start of SL? I certainly can't think of any. 

There are lots of accusations that you can throw at Toronto Wolfpack but the one thing that is undeniable is that they get people talking - and not just RL people. All 12 clubs have had or are about to have their pre-season media day - 11 of them have passed or will pass with barely a murmer - maybe a cliche-riddled interview in a local rag with a dwindling circulation, but that's about it. 

Don't be fooled into thinking that the comments we've been seeing from McDermott and Noble recently aren't part of a deliberate strategy. This is the setting of a carefully-crafted narrative.

TW have set out to create this image of a 'disruptor' in RL. They're deliberately trying to create a 'seige mentality' narrative. They're deliberately trying to pitch themselves as ambitious trailblazors and innovators, going up against a tired, dated, and unaspirational band of clubs who are fearful of them and don't want them to succeed.

When people bang on about how this sport needs better marketing, this is better marketing in the sport - a club deliberately creating a story that they know will get people talking. It's something that every club should be doing, but very few are. 

SBW is box office. He'll put bums on seats in Canada, in France and in the UK. As an investment, he's a safe bet and he'll do more for the Super League and the club than any investment in youth development. 

Exactly, I should have really said he's got more youth attention and column inches than anything full stop that a SL club has actively done in recent times.

On the narrative/ mentality, I totally agree with you. Its a bit like Mourinho's media style which of course isn't to everyone's taste but has a track record of effectiveness. This is better marketing, its creating a narrative, driving that narrative in every aspect and building off of that to gain media coverage - and its working!

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14 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I work for an international media organisation whose sports coverage is run by a bunch of union fanatics. 

Today, for the first time in at least the 14 years that I've been there, we published domestic UK rugby league story that wasn't about drugs or a cross code issue. All about SBW and Toronto in SL. I never thought I'd see the day. 

(Oh and by the way the interview was done at the Manchester City media facility. So many resources in the northwest just crying out to be linked up with) 

Says it all. I'm not surprised in the slightest as that has been my experience too. Mates who are private school union through and through have asked me about whether I'm coming to Headingley for the season opener double header. 

I'm not saying our current athletes aren't worth box office, but to attract box office attention we need to be doing this across the board. 

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