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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

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40 minutes ago, TBone said:

Which is why no sane million/billionaire would 'invest' in any new(ish) venture in RL, especially if they don't get a cut of the TV rights money. What you are seeking is a benefactor not a business proposition.

FWIW I have always thought it madness to start a club in a country several thousand miles away from the competition(s) that it will play in. Especially when the governing body doesn't have a strategic plan (full stop? but oh, shucks...)  that includes expansion in your direction.

Apart from the USA there are very very few sports clubs around the world that make money. Even in football, the biggest sport in the world, there a tiny handful that are profitable to any serious level. In Europe certainly most sports clubs are seen as rich men’s toys and not business investments. There are very few clubs that provide any meaningful return on investment, the best that they can hope for is that the intrinsic value grows to make it worth more than they paid for it. Different cultures I guess, but the people running the clubs over here do not do so to make money. The likes of Davy, Hudgell etc have spent millions for very little in return, it’s pretty much philanthropy.

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I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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2 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

I think Rogers and bell would pay massive money for tv rightS if Toronto and Otatwa were in the SL.

They would definitely be willing to pay something.  Again, it's all about having a Tiered broadcasting setup with different access options and associated costs for different types of fans.

You could have a Canadian Broadcasting deal for just the Canadian Teams, you could also have a local broadcasting deal if all you are interested in watching is your local club.  If you want to watch every single game, you can pay for a package with greater access options.

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2 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Apart from the USA there are very very few sports clubs around the world that make money. Even in football, the biggest sport in the world, there a tiny handful that are profitable to any serious level. In Europe certainly most sports clubs are seen as rich men’s toys and not business investments. There are very few clubs that provide any meaningful return on investment, the best that they can hope for is that the intrinsic value grows to make it worth more than they paid for it. Different cultures I guess, but the people running the clubs over here do not do so to make money. The likes of Davy, Hudgell etc have spent millions for very little in return, it’s pretty much philanthropy.

That's because the business models are different.  Decades of experience in at least 5 sports has proven that the franchised North American model is the way to make investment in a major league pro sports franchise a profitable investment.

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8 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Apart from the USA there are very very few sports clubs around the world that make money. Even in football, the biggest sport in the world, there a tiny handful that are profitable to any serious level. In Europe certainly most sports clubs are seen as rich men’s toys and not business investments. There are very few clubs that provide any meaningful return on investment, the best that they can hope for is that the intrinsic value grows to make it worth more than they paid for it. Different cultures I guess, but the people running the clubs over here do not do so to make money. The likes of Davy, Hudgell etc have spent millions for very little in return, it’s pretty much philanthropy.

I'm calling BS on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

Many sports leagues make all sorts of money and many also turn a nice profit.  I think you'll note that the above is a uniquely British issue.  Super League is way down the list btw, it's clubs make about as much as the Egyptian Football League in terms of revenue.  

That is the issue with the sport of RL in the Northern Hemisphere, it isn't a money making sport but it could be with a new vision and strategy.  It should be as profitable as the NRL.  

Edited by CanadianRugger
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6 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Would a British broadcaster pay massive money if ‘Manchester Manics’ played in the Canadian Football League, I wonder. 

Canadian Football doesn't have a global appeal the way Rugby does.  Rugby has global appeal and is played around the globe, in some form or another.  The problem is that Rugby (both codes) is ultra-conservative and is about 50 years behind every other sport in terms of actually running and administering itself like a proper PROFESSIONAL sport.

I can go to any Country in the World and will most likely find a Rugby Club throwing a Rugby Ball around, either playing XVs or XIIIs.  You can't do the same thing with Gridiron.

Edited by CanadianRugger

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1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

Canadian Football doesn't have a global appeal the way Rugby does.  Rugby has global appeal and is played around the globe, in some form or another.  The problem is that Professional Rugby (both codes) is ultra-conservative and is about 50 years behind every other sport in terms of actually running and administering itself like a proper PROFESSIONAL sport.

I can go to any Country in the World and will most likely find a Rugby Club throwing a Rugby Ball around, either playing XVs or XIIIs.  You can't do the same thing with Gridiron.

That’s a no, then.

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6 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Canadian Football doesn't have a global appeal the way Rugby does.  Rugby has global appeal and is played around the globe, in some form or another.  The problem is that Rugby (both codes) is ultra-conservative and is about 50 years behind every other sport in terms of actually running and administering itself like a proper PROFESSIONAL sport.

I can go to any Country in the World and will most likely find a Rugby Club throwing a Rugby Ball around, either playing XVs or XIIIs.  You can't do the same thing with Gridiron.

This is wrong.... but as its Saturday night and I'm already way down a bottle of cab sauv, I will reserve a considered response till later.

Rule 4.3.... no Internet output when glass full.....

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1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

That’s a no, then.

Would the Manchester Manics have 8k fans a match?  Doubtful.  Toronto Wolfpack have a proven fanbase and demand for the product, the issue is that the League they play in is not optimized or structured to take advantage of this product.  That needs to change if they are to be successful.

Like I said above, you are #60 in terms of revenue in the World, right between the Romanian and Egyptian Football Leagues.  I would hope Super League aspires to be bigger than the Romanian Football League someday?

As far as the CFL is concerned, Super League isn't even in the same ballpark.  CFL teams pull in around 4.5x the revenue that the average Super League clubs do annually, and that's for a field sport played on grass in a Country that experiences harsh Winters.

  

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9 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

This is wrong.... but as its Saturday night and I'm already way down a bottle of cab sauv, I will reserve a considered response till later.

Rule 4.3.... no Internet output when glass full.....

Great contribution to the thread, about what I expect from the peanut gallery on this forum.  Time to back your statements up with some facts.  

Or go have another drink 😉

It's even worse when you compare actual revenues of clubs per match.  Super League teams pull in about as much as the Azerbaijan Football League.  I am glad Super League aspires to compete with Azerbaijan Football League for revenues 🙂 oh and the WNBA 😄

Edited by CanadianRugger
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4 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Would the Manchester Manics have 8k fans a match?  Doubtful.  Toronto Wolfpack have a proven fanbase and demand for the product, the issue is that the League they play in is not optimized or structured to take advantage of this product.  That needs to change if they are to be successful.

Like I said above, you are #60 in terms of revenue in the World, right between the Romanian and Egyptian Football Leagues.  I would hope Super League aspires to be bigger than the Romanian Football League someday?

As far as the CFL is concerned, Super League isn't even in the same ballpark.  CFL teams pull in around 4.5x the revenue that the average Super League clubs do annually, and that's for a field sport played on grass in a Country that experiences harsh Winters.

Still a no...

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4 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

And now you are just trolling 🙂

You didn’t answer the question (because you knew the answer).

If the ‘Manics’ played in the CFL you would find there is some interest in Manchester but the rest of the UK basically wouldn’t give a monkey’s once the novelty had worn off, and Sky certainly wouldn’t be paying ‘massive money’ to show the CFL here.  

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40 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

I'm calling BS on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

Many sports leagues make all sorts of money and many also turn a nice profit.  I think you'll note that the above is a uniquely British issue.  Super League is way down the list btw, it's clubs make about as much as the Egyptian Football League in terms of revenue.  

That is the issue with the sport of RL in the Northern Hemisphere, it isn't a money making sport but it could be with a new vision and strategy.  It should be as profitable as the NRL.  

Revenue and profit aren’t the same thing.

In 2018/19 the Premier League clubs had combined revenue of over £5 billion. Those same clubs had collective losses of £599 million in the same period. Go figure.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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59 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

That's because the business models are different.  Decades of experience in at least 5 sports has proven that the franchised North American model is the way to make investment in a major league pro sports franchise a profitable investment.

In America 

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

That's because the business models are different.  Decades of experience in at least 5 sports has proven that the franchised North American model is the way to make investment in a major league pro sports franchise a profitable investment.

In America 

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57 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

I'm calling BS on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

Many sports leagues make all sorts of money and many also turn a nice profit.  I think you'll note that the above is a uniquely British issue.  Super League is way down the list btw, it's clubs make about as much as the Egyptian Football League in terms of revenue.  

That is the issue with the sport of RL in the Northern Hemisphere, it isn't a money making sport but it could be with a new vision and strategy.  It should be as profitable as the NRL.  

You do realise there's a difference between governing bodies and clubs?

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So what makes the States so unique that they can have so many sports teams in so many sports leagues all making money (well, most of them anyway).

Competition. Americans love sports, but no more than any other country. And there are a lot of Americans. But there are also 4 huge OTA broadcast networks and they all have multiple cable nets devoted to sports. That requires a LOT of programming and thus far the networks are willing to pay for it. Which equals rich sports teams, owners, and athletes.

I don't know enough about the broadcasting situation in other countries to comment but it seems to me the more private broadcasters a country has the more competition for sports rights there will be and the more money to be made.

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Comparing CFL (Canada only) is stupid and I am a big fan of the CFL (NFL not so much) what the CFL has is a solid fanbase with an average of 80000/100000 for 4 matches every weekend.

We would love to have that.

 

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1 hour ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Comparing CFL (Canada only) is stupid and I am a big fan of the CFL (NFL not so much) what the CFL has is a solid fanbase with an average of 80000/100000 for 4 matches every weekend.

We would love to have that.

 

Back in their heyday Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton and Vancouver would draw 50,000 a game.

Other teams probably could have done the same had their stadiums been bigger.

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Problem is, you have a select group saying “we need a strategic plan” and “a vision.”

Then you get someone of the calibre of Richard Lewis who makes plenty of tough calls and then gets poached by Tennis. You replace him and revert all his changes. 

Now the truth is the calibre of leaders at the RFL and SL clubs is very low. 

What they need to do (like any major business) is bring in consultants to create a roadmap. Some won’t like the outcome, but if it’s a roadmap to revenue, sustainability, and a larger fanbase, then that’s just the way it is. Plus, investors are more likely to come on board with a strategic plan devised by Bain or BCG. 

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41 minutes ago, dealwithit said:

Problem is, you have a select group saying “we need a strategic plan” and “a vision.”

Then you get someone of the calibre of Richard Lewis who makes plenty of tough calls and then gets poached by Tennis. You replace him and revert all his changes. 

Now the truth is the calibre of leaders at the RFL and SL clubs is very low. 

What they need to do (like any major business) is bring in consultants to create a roadmap. Some won’t like the outcome, but if it’s a roadmap to revenue, sustainability, and a larger fanbase, then that’s just the way it is. Plus, investors are more likely to come on board with a strategic plan devised by Bain or BCG. 

Not a bad idea, although it won't be cheap and SL owners tend to be.

Then getting them all to sit down and agree to implement the consultant's plan would be akin to herding cats.

And then to ensure the plan is followed, hire a league president on a multi-year contract with the sole aim of achieving its goal, thereby sidelining the owners, who will have just the one option of firing the president to prevent him from achieving what they originally agreed to.

I figure it would take 3 years at most before the president is canned.

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1 hour ago, dealwithit said:

Now the truth is the calibre of leaders at the RFL and SL clubs is very low.  

This is the problem. For whatever reason RL has consistently failed to attract talented individuals at the administrative level, possibly because anyone with any talent or vision would find their plans stymied by the clubs acting in their own self interest. As I have repeated several times before I am pro expansion, I was introduced to the game one Sunday afternoon when I was working in London so I am proof that you don’t have to be from the heartlands to get this game. Sadly I believe that although the RFL wants to expand, it hasn’t a clue how to do it, which is why when someone comes along willing to set up a team in a new area, they snap their hand off without thinking how strategically this will work. In my time watching the game there have been all sorts of bizarre attempts in places like Mansfield (a backwater), Scarborough (a seaside resort and retirement home), Maidstone (where?) and Bridgend (another backwater). Now to add to these we have clubs being formed in Canada which appear to be unwanted by the majority of RL fans and club owners and the RFLs criteria for admitting them seems to be “no cost to us”, rather than an actual plan to break into North America. The vast majority of past failures were usually down to 

a. A lack of money

b. A lack of patience from owners (usually because they underestimated the cost of the new venture)

c. A lack of support/expansion strategy from the RFL

Sadly until there is a major change at the top in the RFL then it’s just going to continue and if that happens the whole future of the sport in the Northern Hemisphere has to be bleak.

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2 hours ago, Oldbear said:

This is the problem. For whatever reason RL has consistently failed to attract talented individuals at the administrative level, possibly because anyone with any talent or vision would find their plans stymied by the clubs acting in their own self interest. As I have repeated several times before I am pro expansion, I was introduced to the game one Sunday afternoon when I was working in London so I am proof that you don’t have to be from the heartlands to get this game. Sadly I believe that although the RFL wants to expand, it hasn’t a clue how to do it, which is why when someone comes along willing to set up a team in a new area, they snap their hand off without thinking how strategically this will work. In my time watching the game there have been all sorts of bizarre attempts in places like Mansfield (a backwater), Scarborough (a seaside resort and retirement home), Maidstone (where?) and Bridgend (another backwater). Now to add to these we have clubs being formed in Canada which appear to be unwanted by the majority of RL fans and club owners and the RFLs criteria for admitting them seems to be “no cost to us”, rather than an actual plan to break into North America. The vast majority of past failures were usually down to 

a. A lack of money

b. A lack of patience from owners (usually because they underestimated the cost of the new venture)

c. A lack of support/expansion strategy from the RFL

Sadly until there is a major change at the top in the RFL then it’s just going to continue and if that happens the whole future of the sport in the Northern Hemisphere has to be bleak.

IMHO it is about leadership.  If a leader passionately believes that expansion is way forward then he has to convince the SL clubs as to the short term and long term benefits.  Our game has no leader that can/will/able to do this and as we have seen the lesser clubs in terms of attracting income feel threatened and will probably vote against TWP, not because they think there is no short or long term gain, in reality they couldn’t give a chuff about that, but all they are thinking about is keepIng their club above the water.

I can just vision the 11 SL club chairmen sat around a large circular table.  A rep from SKY enters the room and plonks the annual pot of TV distribution money in the middle of the table.  You have some SL Chairmen who look at the money and think ‘We could do better’ and you have some SL Chairmen who are positively slobbering thinking ‘This will keep the club going for one more year’.  

This mentality will IMHO see a gradual decline with the end game being back to semi pro.  

 

Edited by Adelaide Tiger
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