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38 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It is a common misconception that Wigan council funded the LSV , they provided the land and underwrote for any shortfall , the finance all came from grants and private investors , but that also means that Leigh don't have any income or control 

Grants from who and which private investors? Wikipedia has the owner down as Wigan Council, who owns the stadium?

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Over to you Cas. Get your water colours out

In reality, they've had 20 years head start. It was clear they were not getting a new stadium and hence were resigned to making the best of what they had. Not knocking them, they've done an excellent

From my POV, yes. It just smacks a lot... that the club did what it asked and got nowhere, whereas trinity and cas have horrible run down places and in Trinity's case, poor on field performance and fi

1 hour ago, M j M said:

It's impossible to overstate how much the lack of local government support has had on Cas and Wakey. From Hull to St Helens every other club have needed significant council involvement in new stadia or redevelopments either in nodding through supermarket enabling developments or in financing the thing (apart from Leeds and even then there is an element and Wigan who use a football ground).

Getting this stuff done with a hostile or indifferent council is nearly impossible.

Featherstone have improved their Stadium without any Council help, same Authority.

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5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But once everything else was in place Wigan council gave the Centurions an ultimatum , move or Hilton Park gets a 1000 capacity safety certificate , effectively killing the club 

So I do have a great deal of sympathy with Wakey , as you say , unless the council have the will , there's not a lot you can do , not stop me taking the pee though 😉

I’m not sure why you think it’s Wigan Council and Wakefield Council’s responsibility to provide playing facilities for rugby league clubs. Leigh Sports Village seems to have been a massive waste of money, half the stadium is never used, building only 2 of the 4 stands would have been sufficient.

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31 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I’m not sure why you think it’s Wigan Council and Wakefield Council’s responsibility to provide playing facilities for rugby league clubs. Leigh Sports Village seems to have been a massive waste of money, half the stadium is never used, building only 2 of the 4 stands would have been sufficient.

It been quite a success really  with 3 teams playing there and 3 rl world cup games coming up, more than I can say for the library (wigan) down the road.

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36 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Grants from who and which private investors? Wikipedia has the owner down as Wigan Council, who owns the stadium?

Green bank Partnership of Wigan were the developers , it was a very complicated scheme including as I said land given up by Leigh East and Leigh Harriers for development , yes the council administer the site via a stadium/site management co again all controlled by a trust 

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38 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I’m not sure why you think it’s Wigan Council and Wakefield Council’s responsibility to provide playing facilities for rugby league clubs. Leigh Sports Village seems to have been a massive waste of money, half the stadium is never used, building only 2 of the 4 stands would have been sufficient.

Where have I suggested it's the council's responsibility ? , You really are a cretin at times 

The LSV was built for SL , at a time when the RFL basically had it as a race to put together SL standard facilities and you would receive a SL licence , Leigh did finish in a SL finishing position , but then the RFL allowed 4/5 clubs to renieg on their promises and get a place in front of us 

As 2017 showed , we can put a substantial attendance in the stadium with a reasonably competitive squad , and in fact , the way the deal with the LSV is set up , in SL the stadium is free for the club to use , and in fact at a slightly higher level than we achieved in 2017 the stadium starts to actually pay the club to play there 

Not that you are interested in any of this , but I'm sure some other genuine RL fans on this board are interested HTH 

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53 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I’m not sure why you think it’s Wigan Council and Wakefield Council’s responsibility to provide playing facilities for rugby league clubs. Leigh Sports Village seems to have been a massive waste of money, half the stadium is never used, building only 2 of the 4 stands would have been sufficient.

Councils and Local Authorities all over the world regularly build or assist in building sports stadiums. Some inevitably will be white elephants but others will be fantastic little community hubs.

Now I know we're not communists but we're also not flush with the cash needed for this sort of investment - so municipal owned or at least multi partner facilities make sense.

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

Councils and Local Authorities all over the world regularly build or assist in building sports stadiums. Some inevitably will be white elephants but others will be fantastic little community hubs.

Now I know we're not communists but we're also not flush with the cash needed for this sort of investment - so municipal owned or at least multi partner facilities make sense.

Indeed , in fact it's one of the things that has held us back , all over the world Pro Sports clubs are playing in council built and owned stadia , be that NFL,NRL loads of sports clubs in Europe 

But our Mr Sinfield is too thick to realise his argument is hypocrisy , Lamport Stadium , owned by Toronto council 

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1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I’m not sure why you think it’s Wigan Council and Wakefield Council’s responsibility to provide playing facilities for rugby league clubs. Leigh Sports Village seems to have been a massive waste of money, half the stadium is never used, building only 2 of the 4 stands would have been sufficient.

Do you mean like the council's providing stadia for Les Catalans , Toulouse and Toronto Wolfpack ? , And countless others , like loads of NRL clubs ? , Like that you mean ?

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Indeed , in fact it's one of the things that has held us back , all over the world Pro Sports clubs are playing in council built and owned stadia , be that NFL,NRL loads of sports clubs in Europe 

But our Mr Sinfield is too thick to realise his argument is hypocrisy , Lamport Stadium , owned by Toronto council 

Its true, what we seem to suffer from in this country however is somewhat of an unwillingness to share and/or compromise on location. 

Wakefield is a prime example of 1 council with 3 teams that really should have at least 1 top rate facility out of the set but don't for various reasons. Leigh in a similar vein are part of Wigan council. Kirklees on the other hand got the Giants and Town to come together, but that forgets how Kirklees also covers Batley and Dewsbury. Hull did the same for FC and City, but left KR on their own. Hunslet now play at municipal facilities and have played at council owned venues since the sale of Parkside iirc, and realistically aren't likely to grow beyond them now. Bradford is another classic example where 3 teams have mixed quality stadiums and all would benefit from a council led municipal facility. York have got together with York City and ultimately a developer and the council. Even Doncaster got a stadium funded.

Whilst it is nice for clubs to have their own facilities and stadiums if they can afford it, I think our attitude to them as infrastructure is a bit outdated as a nation. That said, if municipal stadia are the way forward, councils are likely to only support 1 of those in a close time period, meaning being the 3rd team in an area or a team from a smaller town such as in the Kirklees, Wakefield MDC and Hull examples could be very difficult. An unwillingness or inability to move to a municipal facility could be problematic for the long term sustainability of a club.

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6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its true, what we seem to suffer from in this country however is somewhat of an unwillingness to share and/or compromise on location. 

Wakefield is a prime example of 1 council with 3 teams that really should have at least 1 top rate facility out of the set but don't for various reasons. Leigh in a similar vein are part of Wigan council. Kirklees on the other hand got the Giants and Town to come together, but that forgets how Kirklees also covers Batley and Dewsbury. Hull did the same for FC and City, but left KR on their own. Hunslet now play at municipal facilities and have played at council owned venues since the sale of Parkside iirc, and realistically aren't likely to grow beyond them now. Bradford is another classic example where 3 teams have mixed quality stadiums and all would benefit from a council led municipal facility. York have got together with York City and ultimately a developer and the council. Even Doncaster got a stadium funded.

Whilst it is nice for clubs to have their own facilities and stadiums if they can afford it, I think our attitude to them as infrastructure is a bit outdated as a nation. That said, if municipal stadia are the way forward, councils are likely to only support 1 of those in a close time period, meaning being the 3rd team in an area or a team from a smaller town such as in the Kirklees, Wakefield MDC and Hull examples could be very difficult. An unwillingness or inability to move to a municipal facility could be problematic for the long term sustainability of a club.

Yes , but , that is a direct result of us ( UK ) inventing pro sport ( well virtually ALL world sport ) that required stadiums , council's weren't going to fund stadiums back in the 1880/90s , so clubs started piling up whatever they had lying round and putting up fences , so that becomes the system , as sports spread around the world over the next century quite often being part time or indeed amateur then council's started building for their communities 

Too late for us 

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30 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Do you mean like the council's providing stadia for Les Catalans , Toulouse and Toronto Wolfpack ? , And countless others , like loads of NRL clubs ? , Like that you mean ?

The mighty NFL in the States are the absolute masters of getting councils to build magnificent stadiums for them. 

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3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , but , that is a direct result of us ( UK ) inventing pro sport ( well virtually ALL world sport ) that required stadiums , council's weren't going to fund stadiums back in the 1880/90s , so clubs started piling up whatever they had lying round and putting up fences , so that becomes the system , as sports spread around the world over the next century quite often being part time or indeed amateur then council's started building for their communities 

Too late for us 

I mean yes and no. You can still have municipal facilites. Realistically thats what the DW, Galpharm, KCOM should be seen as. 

I think the point of difference comes in the eras of stadium building. Since the War we've had the boom of the 50s and 60s, then the changes after Hillsborough plus the new grounds that were built instead of redeveloping existing facilities in the 90s, then the wave of modern stadia we're in now plus possibly entering a new wave of hyper stadiums like Spurs and the proposed new Stamford bridge. Interspersed in that is the few municipal stadiums for Olympics and commonwealth games.

Throughout particularly the most recent era, municipal, multi sport venues have been built all over. In RL land we've just been a seen both sides of the coin.

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53 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

An unwillingness or inability to move to a municipal facility could be problematic for the long term sustainability of a club.

It is fully understandable though , it can also work the other way , as I put earlier , Leigh initially turned down moving into the LSV on the current terms , the loss of revenue was substantial , basically making us not viable in SL 

We often see it suggested that moving into a new council owned stadium with nice shiney new corporate facilities will result in increased corporate and sponsorship income , but that isn't necessarily how it works , if let's say CAS got the stadium at glasshoughton under council ownership , their corporate costing could easily double in price , and given the out if town location it might well drop in take up , they could lose all or some of their stadium advertising , as has happened at Leigh they might find they have to pay rent for their back office , rent for their merchandise outlet , rent for their community staff if they want them at the stadium 

If let's say Leeds council had offered the Rhino's and Utd a nice shiney new 60,000 mega stadium , would the Rhino's have gone ? , Giving up control of their corporate and concession sales ? 

It would be more impressive than Headingley , but not as financially viable 

Edited by GUBRATS
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57 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Indeed , in fact it's one of the things that has held us back , all over the world Pro Sports clubs are playing in council built and owned stadia , be that NFL,NRL loads of sports clubs in Europe 

But our Mr Sinfield is too thick to realise his argument is hypocrisy , Lamport Stadium , owned by Toronto council 

In fact in the case of the NFL teams are often moved depending upon the local councils cooperative ness or lack there of

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55 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

In fact in the case of the NFL teams are often moved depending upon the local councils cooperative ness or lack there of

That’s part of the reason why “sports” there are soulless. There is zero connection to the community hence teams freely up sticks and move to another location. They are “franchises” who are there to make money. 

Do that here, and it’s WWIII. One team did move location (Wimbledon FC) and they were rightly slaughtered for it. An iconic institution like Liverpool FC doing that here would never happen.

 

“At a football club there’s a holy trinity...the players, the manger, and the supporters....directors don’t come into it, they are only there to sign the cheques.” - Bill Shankly.

 

The opposite of that quote is the case across the water. The owner of the “franchises” is king. It is he who lifts the bleedin trophy before anyone. Its not sport at all. It’s cold and clinical. Fake. Even the atmosphere has to be manufactured with cheerleaders and “make some noise” signs.

 

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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Indeed , in fact it's one of the things that has held us back , all over the world Pro Sports clubs are playing in council built and owned stadia , be that NFL,NRL loads of sports clubs in Europe 

But our Mr Sinfield is too thick to realise his argument is hypocrisy , Lamport Stadium , owned by Toronto council 

The Premier League is the most watched sports league on the planet. 

The worst stadium in the Premier League, West Ham United, is a municipal stadium. They gave up their home, Upton Park, and are now basically homeless. The vast majority of their supporters despise the place. It’s not theirs.

Nothing beats having your own home. 

Edited by DC77
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24 minutes ago, DC77 said:

That’s part of the reason why “sports” there are soulless. There is zero connection to the community hence teams freely up sticks and move to another location. They are “franchises” who are there to make money. 

 

Sorry buddy but you are way wrong on that one. I used to think that too till I moved over here and it turns out that your average NA sports fan is as passionate about their local teams as we Brits are, and although you comment about teams moving the reality is that there are some teams (like NY Yankees, Toronto Maple Leafs, Chicago Bears, Philadelphia Eagles) where there would also be World War 3 if someone tried to move them, such is the level of involvement in their local communities, so guess what, they never move. Where your point does have a lot of merit, is that the owners of NA sports teams may be huge fans, but are also very business minded, so as long as they get their way then things are fine, but if they don’t they are either going to sell up (their level of emotional involvement is not as great as their business need), or they make things as difficult as they can for the local council until they get their way. There are also a lot of what is best described as marginal teams where although they have a passionate fan base there’s just not enough of them and they don’t have the financial clout to make a difference, which means they are very vulnerable in their own communities to the owners whims, hence why the Raiders are now on their 3rd city and why St Louis seems to struggle to keep its teams.

One point that is very true over here vs the UK is that the average fan here has very little say about anything, so is often treated really badly by owners, who really don’t care as there’s always someone to replace them, the opinions of fans do seem to be listened to more by UK club owners, or at least it always seemed to be that way, I’m sure someone will enlighten me on that one though.

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OK, a potted history of Belle Vue Stadium, Wakefield: a tale of incompetence, naivety, bad timing and missed opportunities

Map published 1893

The early history is vague, but it seems Trinity moved permanently to this site in 1879 after playing on a few grounds close by. There seems to be a stand on the west side back then, not sure if it was the same one as below.

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The west stand with cycle track still in place. (1898)

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Early aerial shot (challenge cup semi-final 1936) showing west stand and east stand (built in 1920s) and terracing on north and south

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Showing stands on 3 sides (West, East and South) - 1970s. Not sure when the south stand was built, but was already there for the opening of the floodlights in 1967.

AFAIK the south stand was demolished not that long after it was built to extend the pitch in 1978. It was intended to rebuild it further back, but there was a problem either with ownership of the land or structure of the foundations (slag pile? - see terracing pic above)

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(2000s) West and South stands gone, benidorm flats in the south, only east stand remaining. The west stand was demolished in the 80s following the Bradford fire as it was suggested it was made of wood, but story has it that it was only wooden cladding. A low point in the history of the club.

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(2012 +) The current configuration. North stand covered for the first time, bus shelter stand in the south-west corner. The original idea was to put a roof along the whole west stand, but there were issues with TV facilities and blocking light to the housing behind. The buildings to the east next to the care park are now demolished and the land is owned by the club.

Link to google map showing current state of land owned by the club behind the east stand

Just found this on the Trinity Heritage site, in front of the south stand, so it had been there longer than I thought.

http://trinityheritage.co.uk/

1964-yc-winners.jpeg

Edited by Wholly Trinity
added google link + add dates to photos
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1 hour ago, Wholly Trinity said:

 

th?id=OIP.tzVrAWAupUAW5ZQCY3PP5gHaFj%26p

The west stand with cycle track still in place.

2000s) West and South stands gone, benidorm flats in the south, only east stand remaining. The west stand was demolished in the 80s following the Bradford fire as it was suggested it was made of wood, but story has it that it was only wooden cladding. A low point in the history of the club.

What a feature the a preserved West Stand would have been of a redeveloped stadium, like the Cottage in Fulham. It's the sort of thing we neglect to keep hold of in Rugby League.

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