A way forward for Rugby League

[Total Rugby League]

Talking Rugby League with League Express editor Martyn Sadler What’s the best way forward for the governance of Rugby League, given the unsuccessful way in...

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[Hela Wigmen]

The governance needs to change...let’s appoint a bloke closely linked to the current governance, who made a decision a few months ago that was widely derided from players, coaches, fans and the media the Rugby League world over. Is that the best move to make? 

[gingerjon]

It's the Sally Bolton Syndrome again.

Here's a person who did one thing for rugby league well (debatably) so now they can do everything else for rugby league until we have a new name to add.

I don't disagree about the broader idea for a Brains Trust but can't help but thinking we'd need some massive ego suppression if it was going to be in any way successful.

[Hela Wigmen]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's the Sally Bolton Syndrome again.

Here's a person who did one thing for rugby league well (debatably) so now they can do everything else for rugby league until we have a new name to add.

I don't disagree about the broader idea for a Brains Trust but can't help but thinking we'd need some massive ego suppression if it was going to be in any way successful.

In terms of the “Brains Trust”, wasn’t that the purpose of Super League breaking away from The RFL in the first place? That “Brains Trust”, the Super League chairmen and subsequently the appointment of Elstone, wanted more authority. It’s not exactly worked at all, so would this be anything other than re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic?

[EastLondonMike]

For the game to progress i feel we need to remove the direct influence of the clubs (clearly), and for that to happen a figurehead would need to be appointed who has the trust and confidence of those clubs, but with complete freedom to make decisions for the benefit of the game, which is clearly unlikely to happen currently.

I don't think Robert Elstone has ever had that level of confidence among the clubs.

Strong and competent management would do wonders for our game.

I don't see an easy or quick solution to this problem, and further division within the game will possibly occur before such a resolution is actually looked at.

[Robin Evans]

I wonder if Rob Elstone reads this forum and other such like opinions?

[jroyales]

I feel our great sport will have to split - if it hasn't already. Super League is now a separate entity and doesn't want to share anything with the rest of the sport.

I suggest let SL do what it will and the Championship and First division go its own way and importantly having the interest

of ALL of the sport. Call it The Second Great Schism!

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, jroyales said:

I feel our great sport will have to split - if it hasn't already. Super League is now a separate entity and doesn't want to share anything with the rest of the sport.

I suggest let SL do what it will and the Championship and First division go its own way and importantly having the interest

of ALL of the sport. Call it The Second Great Schism!

Far more likely is that the fully professional (or at least aspirationally fully professional) part of the game splits from the semi pro.

[Hela Wigmen]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Far more likely is that the fully professional (or at least aspirationally fully professional) part of the game splits from the semi pro.

That seems sensible, though where do these hybrid teams stand? Do you expect them to roll the dice and go fully pro or pull back and stick part-time?

[Rupert Prince]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Far more likely is that the fully professional (or at least aspirationally fully professional) part of the game splits from the semi pro.

Only a few clubs can aspire to be pro.   none of the rest can even justify semi pro.

The greater part of the game (not amateur) have been living in a fool's paradise.

This non pro part of the game needs and should be given investment, but not as pro or semi pro clubs.  They are an important part of the pyramid above the schools and colleges.

This is why the game needs investment, it must build and strengthen its foundations.

[M j M]

The first time Martyn wrote about Lord Caine he was forced to cite Wikipedia as there was so little out there about him.

I'd be interested what has changed since then to justify calling for him to be given the most senior role in the sport, other than chairing a committee whose final conclusion, if not unexpected, was hardly inspiring.

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

In terms of the “Brains Trust”, wasn’t that the purpose of Super League breaking away from The RFL in the first place? That “Brains Trust”, the Super League chairmen and subsequently the appointment of Elstone, wanted more authority. It’s not exactly worked at all, so would this be anything other than re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic?

Yes, what a fanfare that was when Elstone was appointed and those Chairmen told us how things in the SL were going to be so much more positive and professional.

[fighting irish]

29 minutes ago, jroyales said:

I feel our great sport will have to split - if it hasn't already. Super League is now a separate entity and doesn't want to share anything with the rest of the sport.

I suggest let SL do what it will and the Championship and First division go its own way and importantly having the interest

of ALL of the sport. Call it The Second Great Schism!

This idea is reminiscent of the RFL/BARLA split organisation of the game. With the RFL administering the pro game and BARLA the amateur part (which seemed sensible to me). 

I think the RFL believed BARLA were getting too big for their boots and usurped control of the whole game (to reduce duplication of admin roles, ha ha). I think there was some concern about Sports Council monies going to BARLA.

I can't remember the official reasoning behind BARLA's emasculation but, if I remember correctly, the amateur game was thriving in those days.

Come back Maurice Oldroyd. 

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

That seems sensible, though where do these hybrid teams stand? Do you expect them to roll the dice and go fully pro or pull back and stick part-time?

I think there has to be a choice made by clubs about where they stand. In effect the hybrid teams have already made that decision that they want to be more fully professional. They're already moving towards Salford and away from Hunslet.

I think there will be a transitional period but if in 10 years time we're in a scenario where we have it as a rule that half your players have to be professional in the championship (and most clubs are well exceeding that) we'll be in a good shape to continue that trend onwards.

In effect we already have that split in the Championship with the divisions within a division observation, this would only formalise it.

[Oxford]

27 minutes ago, M j M said:

The first time Martyn wrote about Lord Caine he was forced to cite Wikipedia as there was so little out there about him.

I'd be interested what has changed since then to justify calling for him to be given the most senior role in the sport, other than chairing a committee whose final conclusion, if not unexpected, was hardly inspiring.

Who the chuffin' 'ell is Lord Caine ?

[fighting irish]

Regarding a separate organisation running the amateur game  - Since the SL seem to hold the rest of the game in contempt (only doing the absolute minimum, to ensure a stream of new players are available, rather than really investing in the games development), I think everything below Super League should get on without them.

In the same vein as the chap who organised the Euro X111 competition, the choice seems obvious to me and the time is nigh. The ''game'' (Rugby League), can either stand by, starving, while this band of shabby elite owners, small time, short term hucksters, go door to door, looking for free pizzas, as they lurch from season to season while the game continues to atrophy or alternatively, just get on and organise itself without them, in the interests of the majority of participants, prioritising growth and geographical spread, creating a truly national game.

We can collaborate with all the other fledgling nations around the world, and grow together into the international game, lovers of rugby league really deserve. 

[Oxford]

Yes but who's Lord Caine?

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Only a few clubs can aspire to be pro.   none of the rest can even justify semi pro.

The greater part of the game (not amateur) have been living in a fool's paradise.

This non pro part of the game needs and should be given investment, but not as pro or semi pro clubs.  They are an important part of the pyramid above the schools and colleges.

This is why the game needs investment, it must build and strengthen its foundations.

I think that is true to a certain extent.

My critique is directed mainly towards those consistently in the lower eschelons of the Championship with no prospect of climbing higher and no real finance to back any ambition to do so: Batley, Dewsbury, Swinton, Rochdale, the Cumbrian clubs for example. 

I think there is a good argument that these clubs would be better being split from the "professional game" and not receiving 2 to 3 times as much as they would in League 1 necessarily, just as the semi pro game is split from the strictly amateur. A purely semi professional RL competition with the prospect if they so wish of buying into the professional leagues, but without the pressure of having to compete with full time pros in the same league is a bit more attractive than the current set up imo.

Such a set up would also allow new teams to enter at the appropriate level. No more sticking Toulouse in League 1 against Hunslet to destroy the league, but equally the opportunity is there for an All Golds to join the semi-pro RL ranks.

[Hela Wigmen]

17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think that is true to a certain extent.

My critique is directed mainly towards those consistently in the lower eschelons of the Championship with no prospect of climbing higher and no real finance to back any ambition to do so: Batley, Dewsbury, Swinton, Rochdale, the Cumbrian clubs for example. 

I think there is a good argument that these clubs would be better being split from the "professional game" and not receiving 2 to 3 times as much as they would in League 1 necessarily, just as the semi pro game is split from the strictly amateur. A purely semi professional RL competition with the prospect if they so wish of buying into the professional leagues, but without the pressure of having to compete with full time pros in the same league is a bit more attractive than the current set up imo.

Such a set up would also allow new teams to enter at the appropriate level. No more sticking Toulouse in League 1 against Hunslet to destroy the league, but equally the opportunity is there for an All Golds to join the semi-pro RL ranks.

In theory, it’s probably a decent idea, though I have my reservations about the “semi-professional” step and how such a change would affect those clubs but a tiered system of professional, semi-pro and amateur (NCL) does seem a sensible idea. 

[gingerjon]

27 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Regarding a separate organisation running the amateur game  - Since the SL seem to hold the rest of the game in contempt (only doing the absolute minimum, to ensure a stream of new players are available, rather than really investing in the games development), I think everything below Super League should get on without them.

In the same vein as the chap who organised the Euro X111 competition, the choice seems obvious to me and the time is nigh. The ''game'' (Rugby League), can either stand by, starving, while this band of shabby elite owners, small time, short term hucksters, go door to door, looking for free pizzas, as they lurch from season to season while the game continues to atrophy or alternatively, just get on and organise itself without them, in the interests of the majority of participants, prioritising growth and geographical spread, creating a truly national game.

We can collaborate with all the other fledgling nations around the world, and grow together into the international game, lovers of rugby league really deserve. 

Could we wait until after the Euro XIII competition has actually been held at least once before deciding that the entire game outside Super League should follow their lead?

[fighting irish]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Could we wait until after the Euro XIII competition has actually been held at least once before deciding that the entire game outside Super League should follow their lead?

Ha ha, I'm no agent-provocateur, I'm just an innocent bystander, a mere commentator on world events. 

[JF1]

41 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

 

We can collaborate with all the other fledgling nations around the world, and grow together into the international game, lovers of rugby league really deserve. 

 

[JF1]

Absolutely. 

Playing to the same set of rules in every country would be a start. 

Oops,double post.

[Rupert Prince]

34 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think that is true to a certain extent.

My critique is directed mainly towards those consistently in the lower eschelons of the Championship with no prospect of climbing higher and no real finance to back any ambition to do so: Batley, Dewsbury, Swinton, Rochdale, the Cumbrian clubs for example. 

I think there is a good argument that these clubs would be better being split from the "professional game" and not receiving 2 to 3 times as much as they would in League 1 necessarily, just as the semi pro game is split from the strictly amateur. A purely semi professional RL competition with the prospect if they so wish of buying into the professional leagues, but without the pressure of having to compete with full time pros in the same league is a bit more attractive than the current set up imo.

Such a set up would also allow new teams to enter at the appropriate level. No more sticking Toulouse in League 1 against Hunslet to destroy the league, but equally the opportunity is there for an All Golds to join the semi-pro RL ranks.

Yes. 

But really I believe that virtually all non SL clubs should be amateur, or 'open'.  Open in that if they can afford it then some payment to some players coaches etc could be OK. 

This creates a significant issue.  How many clubs really are there that are viable and where are they?  Does it make sense to have 3 full time clubs in Wakefield. 2 in Wigan 2 in Hull.  

And can the available money stretch to 16 teams anyway?   Or should the SL (The top professional tier) reduce to 8?.  Or have a 2 division super league (with div 2 on a lower cap).

 

Or do we just carry on drifting.

[Rupert Prince]

55 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Regarding a separate organisation running the amateur game  - Since the SL seem to hold the rest of the game in contempt (only doing the absolute minimum, to ensure a stream of new players are available, rather than really investing in the games development), I think everything below Super League should get on without them.

In the same vein as the chap who organised the Euro X111 competition, the choice seems obvious to me and the time is nigh. The ''game'' (Rugby League), can either stand by, starving, while this band of shabby elite owners, small time, short term hucksters, go door to door, looking for free pizzas, as they lurch from season to season while the game continues to atrophy or alternatively, just get on and organise itself without them, in the interests of the majority of participants, prioritising growth and geographical spread, creating a truly national game.

We can collaborate with all the other fledgling nations around the world, and grow together into the international game, lovers of rugby league really deserve. 

Huh?

SL are not developing limited number of players you spout?  Where did Harry Smith come from.  Hanley?  Where have a whole raft of young players that wear Wigan jerseys come from?   

I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life.  Are you saying Leeds Saints Warrington are not developing players? Are you trying to pretend that they are not trying to develop players.