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Salford to move to Moor Lane?


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4 hours ago, Eddie said:

So do you think most of the people who go to watch Salford City support just them and not another club? 

It depends how you define 'support'.

There are loads of, say, Man U 'supporters' who never set foot in Old Trafford. Many because they can't afford to. Some will actively (i.e. by actually attending matches) support other clubs - including the likes of FC United of Manchester and Salford City (or the dozens of other non-league clubs in the Manchester/Salford area).

My experience of watching Salford City - and I've been to five games at Moor Lane, in various leagues - indicates the club has plenty of locally-domiciled fans who've started watching live football because, all of a sudden, Salford has a football team worth supporting. At rock bottom admission prices, too.

During the club's 'bankrolled' seasons, Salford City's average gate has risen from 150 to 2,500+. You don't think, of circa 251,000 Salfordians, there aren't quite a few who are happy simply to support a football team called Salford - and really aren't interested in any other club?

Edited by Hopping Mad
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2 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

 You don't think, of circa 251,000 Salfordians, there aren't quite a few who are happy simply to support a football team called Salford - and really aren't interested in any other club?

I doubt it, they’ll all have been football fans before, and if they aren’t among the 50 who used to watch Salford they’ll have supported a team previously, most likely Utd and in some cases City. If they supported another non league team they’ll have stuck with them.  If there was such a strong bond with teams called Salford, the RL team wouldn’t be struggling for fans so much. 

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15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I doubt it, they’ll all have been football fans before, and if they aren’t among the 50 who used to watch Salford they’ll have supported a team previously, most likely Utd and in some cases City. If they supported another non league team they’ll have stuck with them.  If there was such a strong bond with teams called Salford, the RL team wouldn’t be struggling for fans so much. 

Extending your analysis (nobody can be attracted to a sport without having a prior interest in it), there is no prospect of any rugby league club, in any expansion area, attracting any support.

Maybe Salford RLFC can't attract a decent crowd because, bar their recent Grand Final blip (and unlike Salford City FC), they've achieved next to nothing since the early 1970s.

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21 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Extending your analysis (nobody can be attracted to a sport without having a prior interest in it), there is no prospect of any rugby league club, in any expansion area, attracting any support.

Maybe Salford RLFC can't attract a decent crowd because, bar their recent Grand Final blip (and unlike Salford City FC), they've achieved next to nothing since the early 1970s.

That’s not what I’m saying at all, however I do doubt that many of any people who go to watch Salford City weren’t interested in football before the Neville’s & Co took over. If you think there’s 2000 people in Salford who weren’t interested in the game but now go to watch them that’s fine, we can agree to differ. 

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9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

That’s not what I’m saying at all, however I do doubt that many of any people who go to watch Salford City weren’t interested in football before the Neville’s & Co took over. If you think there’s 2000 people in Salford who weren’t interested in the game but now go to watch them that’s fine, we can agree to differ. 

I'd say one of the big differences between football and rugby league is the former is growing (and is only too clearly capable of growing) its audience year on year whereas, sadly and conversely, the latter's audience appears to be shrinking rapidly.

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Salford City have hit a bit of a wall after a rapid rise. They had £10 admission, offered free coach travel to away games etc and really capitalised on the Class of  92 factor to those you can’t afford to go to Old Trafford.

Trouble is as they rise through the ranks playing costs escalate - admission is now £15 (still cheap really but growing) and novelty wears off especially when they aren’t winning.

Gary Neville has said this move has come too early for them really - think this saga has a few more twists and turns yet to come.

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18 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

I'd say one of the big differences between football and rugby league is the former is growing (and is only too clearly capable of growing) its audience year on year whereas, sadly and conversely, the latter's audience appears to be shrinking rapidly.

Is football’s audience growing? I don’t think attendance figures support that, not sure about tv ratings. Loads of my mates (blokes in their 40s mainly, so not exactly a spread across the age range and demographic) are losing interest at the moment, both in terms of not bothering to go to games (I include in that a pal who until recently hadn’t missed an Everton home game since he was about 10 and has given his ST up this year) and not watching on TV either. Certainly I get the impression that a lot of people are disillusioned by how money orientated the game is now, and that in terms of fans it’s saturated and reached the peak. 
 

RL on the other hand, if marketed properly (which it isn’t of course) could considerably grow its support base. That said I’m not holding my breath. 

Edited by Eddie
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9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Is football’s audience growing? I don’t think attendance figures support that, not sure about tv ratings. Loads of my mates (blokes in their 40s mainly, so not exactly a spread across the age range and demographic) are losing interest at the moment, both in terms of not bothering to go to games (I include in that a pal who until recently hadn’t missed an Everton home game since he was about 10 and has given his ST up this year) and not watching on TV either. Certainly I get the impression that a lot of people are disillusioned by how money orientated the game is now, and that in terms of fans it’s saturated and reached the peak. 

Football League had a 60 year peak for attendances in its last full open season 2018/19. Attendances have grown by around 3% each year in England for every year between 2013 and 2018.

Not sure it's so clear with TV figures but I can't find any evidence that they're going down and there are now more games on from more leagues than ever before.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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11 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Football League had a 60 year peak for attendances in its last full open season 2018/19. Attendances have grown by around 3% each year in England for every year between 2013 and 2018.

Not sure it's so clear with TV figures but I can't find any evidence that they're going down and there are now more games on from more leagues than ever before.

You could also add, from 2013 to 2019 (to include your 'last full open season'), attendances in football's National League (i.e. tier five) have increased, year on year.

Edited by Hopping Mad
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14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Football League had a 60 year peak for attendances in its last full open season 2018/19. Attendances have grown by around 3% each year in England for every year between 2013 and 2018.

Not sure it's so clear with TV figures but I can't find any evidence that they're going down and there are now more games on from more leagues than ever before.

Yeah I had a look after I wrote that (on this superb website for attendance geeks) and was surprised to see that they were still slowly growing until the pandemic, I stand corrected. 
 

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

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5 hours ago, Eddie said:

I couldn’t care less that Norwich are bottom, every other club has owners worth over £1bn except Watford who aren’t far off - it’s not a level playing field, and I’ve gone right off professional football anyway.  The reason I don’t like Salford City is because they’ve bought success, much like I don’t like Chelsea or Man City.

How have the other clubs got to the position they are in ?

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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On 25/09/2021 at 10:59, Tommygilf said:

The reason we don't have the money is because RL hasn't expanded, by any demographic or metric, to get a broader supporter base that is more resilient to changes. We currently appeal to a very niche market that fundamentally isn't very wealthy - either in terms of the individuals at very top or the mass of people at the bottom in combination.

In a repeating circle of unpopularity the game leads to the collapse of Widnes or Bradford, because there are no benefactors with serious money involved to rescue them. And we're talking about serious money, not just well off people with good jobs. So we don't have the financial level of RU or the mass popularity of football...

You ask why the 10s or 100s or millions of pounds have been wasted in London, Toronto or even Sheffield when it should be obvious? The money is there in those places to invest that sort of amount, and that is the sort of money you need to invest to compete there. They wouldn't have to spend anything like that much in Featherstone, Batley or Leigh, and truth be told, they wouldn't want to. Its also true in Football, see Bury and Manchester City for extreme examples. Money attracts money.

Thank you for your reply, my point is that as you move away from the M62 the level of investment you need to compete as a superleague club or even a championship club becomes greater. The travel is costlier, getting the players is more difficult, away fans are much lesser numbers.  Most people crave geographical expansion but that is highly costly.

I don't quite agree with you. You quote Bradford but they never had a rich owner yet they ruled the roost for a long time. I don't think the gentleman who bought into Widnes and put them back in SL spent vast amounts of money.

I don't think anyone has spent that much on Wakefield and they have held a Superleague place for a very long time. I wonder how Featherstone Rovers will do with their current owner if they made Superleague. I do think the point stands that trying to spread the game across the country is a very highly costly thing to do.

I just don't know how much Mr. Hughes has spent on London, but if he'd spent that at Widnes he may have brought back the old days of the cup kings. Good to see the money going into Leigh, and Newcastle but I'm not sure if the gentleman at York is wealthy and benevolent but I do hope so!!!

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2 hours ago, steve oates said:

Thank you for your reply, my point is that as you move away from the M62 the level of investment you need to compete as a superleague club or even a championship club becomes greater. The travel is costlier, getting the players is more difficult, away fans are much lesser numbers.  Most people crave geographical expansion but that is highly costly.

I don't quite agree with you. You quote Bradford but they never had a rich owner yet they ruled the roost for a long time. I don't think the gentleman who bought into Widnes and put them back in SL spent vast amounts of money.

I don't think anyone has spent that much on Wakefield and they have held a Superleague place for a very long time. I wonder how Featherstone Rovers will do with their current owner if they made Superleague. I do think the point stands that trying to spread the game across the country is a very highly costly thing to do.

I just don't know how much Mr. Hughes has spent on London, but if he'd spent that at Widnes he may have brought back the old days of the cup kings. Good to see the money going into Leigh, and Newcastle but I'm not sure if the gentleman at York is wealthy and benevolent but I do hope so!!!

I think you're mixing up where the investment is coming from. It's not RLs money and therefore not up to RL to decide where it goes. Its also not a case of invest in London or Whitehaven, or alternatively Sheffield or Featherstone.

In fact, all the existing heartland clubs have been there the whole time various individuals have invested millions into a whole variety of non heartland clubs, yet they haven't attracted that investment.

Partly that is because you simply do not need to spend as much. To be the number 1 show in Keighley, Castleford or Batley (or even just to be relatively successful) is going to require less investment than for a "startup" in London, Toronto or Sheffield say. Everything from players to facilities is generally cheaper. 

Partly it is because that higher cost of living and higher levels of economic activity means in general that, by default, there will be more wealthier people in and around the area. A 2 Bob millionaire in X Town isn't as wealthy comparatively in a city where there are relatively more people with relatively more money. Air Transat weren't looking at Toronto vs Hull KR for sponsorship opportunities.

Regardless, the RFL don't get to decide where money is invested. They can't tell a David Argyle or David Hughes to spend their money anywhere the RFL choose. Especially in an environment with P/R. It works at every level too, the RFL couldn't tell Derek Beaumont to invest in Salford not Leigh whilst Leigh are a potential competitor.

That said, I understand that the money at York and Fev were somewhat linked?

Edited by Tommygilf
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14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

To be the number 1 show in Keighley, Castleford or Batley (or even just to be relatively successful) is going to require less investment than for a "startup" in London, Toronto or Sheffield say. Everything from players to facilities is generally cheaper. 

Regardless, the RFL don't get to decide where money is invested. They can't tell a David Argyle or David Hughes to spend their money anywhere the RFL choose. The RFL couldn't tell Derek Beaumont to invest in Salford not Leigh whilst Leigh are a potential competitor.

Happy to agree at that, but funnily enough so many people in the past have waxed lyrical about the game going pro in London, spreading to just down the road in big city Sheffield, and taking off in Toronto such that people were picking out members of the inevitable transatlantic league.

I'm more into preventing the demise of the game where it actually works, and the move by Salford to Moor Lane is very welcome in the circumstances. Yes it's no good for 23 different reasons😉 but for me it puts the "rugby league" back into Manchester/Salford in the very area the game had some strength. Can Swinton Groundshare? 

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18 minutes ago, DG70 said:

So Salford, recent Grand and Challenge cup finalists, without a coach (Really need to get Mcdermott) and very possibly soon to be without a ground, shambles of a club from top to bottom.

Other than calling them a shambles, if you were in charge of Salford what would you do to improve things? 

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On 28/09/2021 at 15:59, Eddie said:

Yeah I had a look after I wrote that (on this superb website for attendance geeks) and was surprised to see that they were still slowly growing until the pandemic, I stand corrected. 
 

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

the other rule of thumb between the two sports is if your mate had been a Salford RLFC fan and given up his season ticket then Salford would have almost certainly been a season ticket holder down. Whereas, when he gave up his season ticket at Everton, there's a waiting list of people queueing up to have it off him.

In fact (genuine question) is there a single Super League club that's at its ceiling on season tickets (i.e. doesn't just sell them to as many people as want them)? I would guess not.

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46 minutes ago, DG70 said:

So Salford, recent Grand and Challenge cup finalists, without a coach (Really need to get Mcdermott) and very possibly soon to be without a ground, shambles of a club from top to bottom.

Salford are a ‘shambles of a club’ because they are - like the majority - not quite big enough for Super League.

We don’t have a wealthy owner (like Huddersfield) and we aren’t the only show In town (like Cas). We can pull in a big latent audience like for the Grand Final but only have a core of 2k fans really. We’re a shambles because we’re trying to be up there with Leeds, Saints etc but we aren’t and never really there. 

Moor Lane will be a good base and much more suited to a top Championship side (like we are in reality).

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18 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

Salford are a ‘shambles of a club’ because they are - like the majority - not quite big enough for Super League.

We don’t have a wealthy owner (like Huddersfield) and we aren’t the only show In town (like Cas). We can pull in a big latent audience like for the Grand Final but only have a core of 2k fans really. We’re a shambles because we’re trying to be up there with Leeds, Saints etc but we aren’t and never really there. 

Moor Lane will be a good base and much more suited to a top Championship side (like we are in reality).

It may have been more accurate to declare yourself a top Superleague 2 side😉

I think that would give Salford a cracking fixture list and the stadium give you a better atmosphere. I'm not for calling clubs "shambles" when they are merely victims of circumstance. SL2 would be a league Salford could win.......

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26 minutes ago, steve oates said:

It may have been more accurate to declare yourself a top Superleague 2 side😉

I think that would give Salford a cracking fixture list and the stadium give you a better atmosphere. I'm not for calling clubs "shambles" when they are merely victims of circumstance. SL2 would be a league Salford could win.......

Yep that’s pretty much what I was getting at Steve but without the fancier title!

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