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15 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Reckon the ball is only in play for 80 minutes at cricket taking out all the time between each ball, changing ends, lunch and tea breaks. Went to Test at Headingley this year and they had drinks breaks as well and it wasn't even hot. 

It’s a point of view.  Maybe I chose the wrong analogy for a rugby forum.  I’ll put it simpler.   Although we’ve discussed it many times and I understand why the club charges it- £18 is too much to watch the sort of fare championship rugby offers up most weeks and it does nothing to attract would be spectators and the half interested.   

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1 hour ago, NickD said:

It’s a point of view.  Maybe I chose the wrong analogy for a rugby forum.  I’ll put it simpler.   Although we’ve discussed it many times and I understand why the club charges it- £18 is too much to watch the sort of fare championship rugby offers up most weeks and it does nothing to attract would be spectators and the half interested.   

It is a difficulty for all clubs at our level when spectators say they will only come to watch a competitive team play but then object to the entrance prices. This is usually followed by the "speculate to accumulate" comments for which there are a host of examples that show the weakness of that argument. I don't profess to know the answer but do know that RL followers in general are notoriously parsimonious.

As an aside I also notice that Fev are charging £240 (£180 concession) for their season tickets this season and gate price is £20 (£15 concession). I anticipate our season tickets being a comparative bargain.

What do soccer clubs charge for admission? Non-league and lower league would be the comparators I guess - Halifax, Bradford PA, Bradford City etc.

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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2 hours ago, NickD said:

It’s a point of view.  Maybe I chose the wrong analogy for a rugby forum.  I’ll put it simpler.   Although we’ve discussed it many times and I understand why the club charges it- £18 is too much to watch the sort of fare championship rugby offers up most weeks and it does nothing to attract would be spectators and the half interested.   

There is also a train of thought, that the opposite is true. Discounting shows a lack of confidence in the product or service on offer. Cheapening things certainly doesn't make people feel the need to tell the world about attending events like more expensive/exclusively perceived events such as football for instance.

Growing up, football was very much a working class sport, but with entry prices to the PL now, I'm not sure you can say that anymore. It's an expensive day out for a family, for example, and completely out of reach for many to do on a regular basis. Yet the popularity is higher than ever. People are only too willing to tell you about the game they have tickets for at the weekend. Can you remember anyone saying the same about a RL match?

Maybe RL needs to break away from the working class roots it is so very proud of portraying, and consistently flies the flag for. Perhaps a significant price increase would change the image of the game? Add a sort of exclusivity to it? 

Certainly from a sponsorship point of view, appealling to the upper and middle classes, with the extra disposable income associated with them, is likely to open the door to more exclusive brands wanting to associate with the game and more lucrative sponsorship and TV deals. 

Edited by DOGFATHER
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48 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

There is also a train of thought, that the opposite is true. Discounting shows a lack of confidence in the product or service on offer. Cheapening things certainly doesn't make people feel the need to tell the world about attending events like more expensive/exclusively perceived events such as football for instance.

Growing up, football was very much a working class sport, but with entry prices to the PL now, I'm not sure you can say that anymore. It's an expensive day out for a family, for example, and completely out of reach for many to do on a regular basis. Yet the popularity is higher than ever. People are only too willing to tell you about the game they have tickets for at the weekend. Can you remember anyone saying the same about a RL match?

Maybe RL needs to break away from the working class roots it is so very proud of portraying, and consistently flies the flag for. Perhaps a significant price increase would change the image of the game? Add a sort of exclusivity to it? 

Certainly from a sponsorship point of view, appealling to the upper and middle classes, with the extra disposable income associated with them, is likely to open the door to more exclusive brands wanting to associate with the game and more lucrative sponsorship and TV deals. 

interesting point , clubs that do charge a higher entrance fee in the championship tend to have higher attendances , leigh, widnes ,fev ,bradford ,fax and york all seem to pull em in , although they have some good offers and generally speaking decent grounds . 

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2 minutes ago, georgeb1 said:

interesting point , clubs that do charge a higher entrance fee in the championship tend to have higher attendances , leigh, widnes ,fev ,bradford ,fax and york all seem to pull em in , although they have some good offers and generally speaking decent grounds . 

And a hell of a larger wage bill.

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34 minutes ago, graham fisher said:

And a hell of a larger wage bill.

Take me back to the late 70's

50p boys pen Elland road

21p a pint 

50p packet of 20 embassy No1

Lifted over the turnstiles at crown flatt

And a Chinese came out of a box called vesta

Soup was 10p and came in a square shaped box

Singles at woolies were 49p

And folk say the world has got better.. Beam be back scotty🤔🤔

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1 hour ago, georgeb1 said:

interesting point , clubs that do charge a higher entrance fee in the championship tend to have higher attendances , leigh, widnes ,fev ,bradford ,fax and york all seem to pull em in , although they have some good offers and generally speaking decent grounds . 

Bradford a decent ground??? For their exorbitant prices you get wet through then in urgent need of a ventilator when you finish the climb out🙄🙄

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1 minute ago, J Phil Loxton said:

Bradford a decent ground??? For their exorbitant prices you get wet through then in urgent need of a ventilator when you finish the climb out🙄🙄

i did say generally , in fairness they do have a very good all seater covered stand plus numerous bars and food kiosks , but have to agree about the ventilator , must be our age😉

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3 hours ago, DOGFATHER said:

There is also a train of thought, that the opposite is true. Discounting shows a lack of confidence in the product or service on offer. Cheapening things certainly doesn't make people feel the need to tell the world about attending events like more expensive/exclusively perceived events such as football for instance.

Growing up, football was very much a working class sport, but with entry prices to the PL now, I'm not sure you can say that anymore. It's an expensive day out for a family, for example, and completely out of reach for many to do on a regular basis. Yet the popularity is higher than ever. People are only too willing to tell you about the game they have tickets for at the weekend. Can you remember anyone saying the same about a RL match?

Maybe RL needs to break away from the working class roots it is so very proud of portraying, and consistently flies the flag for. Perhaps a significant price increase would change the image of the game? Add a sort of exclusivity to it? 

Certainly from a sponsorship point of view, appealling to the upper and middle classes, with the extra disposable income associated with them, is likely to open the door to more exclusive brands wanting to associate with the game and more lucrative sponsorship and TV deals. 

Fair comment and I agree entirely with the thrust of your argument but unfortunately there ain’t any rugby union type middle class in Dewsbury and even if there were the battle to attract such an audience was lost years ago.  Just check out the coverage of middle class sport in the times and telegraph and compare it to how they cover RL.  No matter what we’ve tried over the years it hasn’t worked. 
There’s tonnes of interest in RL around here.  Just go and watch how many there are watching the young uns games taking place as close as Shaw Cross.  It’s these we need to attract and you won’t by charging close to £20.  Not unless you are challenging for the top of the table😉

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3 hours ago, NickD said:

Fair comment and I agree entirely with the thrust of your argument but unfortunately there ain’t any rugby union type middle class in Dewsbury and even if there were the battle to attract such an audience was lost years ago.  Just check out the coverage of middle class sport in the times and telegraph and compare it to how they cover RL.  No matter what we’ve tried over the years it hasn’t worked. 
There’s tonnes of interest in RL around here.  Just go and watch how many there are watching the young uns games taking place as close as Shaw Cross.  It’s these we need to attract and you won’t by charging close to £20.  Not unless you are challenging for the top of the table😉

It is very difficult and a massive gamble. However, the Rams tried extremely cheap season tickets, you had a team that was winning every week. Yet the gates did not go up significantly enough to outweigh the loss in revenue from reduced price tickets.

I know we have run free games, as part of the Jo Cox foundation, at one of of them, we put 70 points past Sheffield, gates were decent, but nothing near what I'd have expected. (I'll await the witty anti-Batley jokes in due course).

We have certainly seen no significant increase in gates long term as a result.

I get the impression that most fans that regularly attend, will regularly attend regardless of cost (to a certain extent).

E.g. A mate of mine at work is a Liverpool season ticket holder, and has been since he was a kid, he's now in his 50s. I remember him telling me, once it gets to £40 a game, that was him done with it. A few years on, his season ticket equates to more than £50 per game now, and he's still going every week. The trouble is, once a club is under your skin, it's very difficult to stop, it's like a disease, an addiction. The years revolve around the season, it is huge part of life. Football realised this sometime ago, and cashed in. I believe RL was too scared to lose what it had and stagnated.

Many would undoubtedly kick off, moan, complain and make threats that they won't go any more, (probably myself included), if Batley put the prices up to £30 a game. In reality though, how many would follow through and actually stop going?

Once the shock factor was out of the way at such an increase, and I'd finished  moaning about it. I know I would justify it to myself.

"It's only a couple of pints/A meal out... What can you really buy for a tenner? "

The big question is, would it stop more than 50% of the regular paying fans from attending every week?

Halving the cost certainly doesn't seem to equate to doubling attendances. Maybe the answer is to go the other way?

It might even discourage some of the riffraff minority that have attached themselves and are causing trouble at Featherstone, making it a more attractive proposition to families?

 

Edited by DOGFATHER
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It depends for me on the quality of the game. Given how frankly boring our "5 one man drives and a kick" game plan was last season, I did feel like it was good value. Oldham away which we won was probably one of the poorest games. I wouldn't have gone to Fev away last season even if it was free, as we were going to get a hiding.

Dedicated fans will come anyway, the floating fans are more likely influenced by whether it will be a good match and the game day experience. 

Edited by Wakefield Ram
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2 hours ago, DOGFATHER said:

It is very difficult and a massive gamble. However, the Rams tried extremely cheap season tickets, you had a team that was winning every week. Yet the gates did not go up significantly enough to outweigh the loss in revenue from reduced price tickets.

I know we have run free games, as part of the Jo Cox foundation, at one of of them, we put 70 points past Sheffield, gates were decent, but nothing near what I'd have expected. (I'll await the witty anti-Batley jokes in due course).

We have certainly seen no significant increase in gates long term as a result.

I get the impression that most fans that regularly attend, will regularly attend regardless of cost (to a certain extent).

E.g. A mate of mine at work is a Liverpool season ticket holder, and has been since he was a kid, he's now in his 50s. I remember him telling me, once it gets to £40 a game, that was him done with it. A few years on, his season ticket equates to more than £50 per game now, and he's still going every week. The trouble is, once a club is under your skin, it's very difficult to stop, it's like a disease, an addiction. The years revolve around the season, it is huge part of life. Football realised this sometime ago, and cashed in. I believe RL was too scared to lose what it had and stagnated.

Many would undoubtedly kick off, moan, complain and make threats that they won't go any more, (probably myself included), if Batley put the prices up to £30 a game. In reality though, how many would follow through and actually stop going?

Once the shock factor was out of the way at such an increase, and I'd finished  moaning about it. I know I would justify it to myself.

"It's only a couple of pints/A meal out... What can you really buy for a tenner? "

The big question is, would it stop more than 50% of the regular paying fans from attending every week?

Halving the cost certainly doesn't seem to equate to doubling attendances. Maybe the answer is to go the other way?

It might even discourage some of the riffraff minority that have attached themselves and are causing trouble at Featherstone, making it a more attractive proposition to families?

 

I’d agree most of us would pay anyway but It’s not about the regulars and when they would be put off.  It’s about attracting the half interested and maybe’s and you either improve the product or charge less imho.   If we improve next year that’s a start but it might be easier to charge less.  I agree that even that is a gamble that might actually backfire.   Would be in charge eh?

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Just now, NickD said:

I’d agree most of us would pay anyway but It’s not about the regulars and when they would be put off.  It’s about attracting the half interested and maybe’s and you either improve the product or charge less imho.   If we improve next year that’s a start but it might be easier to charge less.  I agree that even that is a gamble that might actually backfire.   Who Would be in charge eh?

 

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32 minutes ago, NickD said:

I’d agree most of us would pay anyway but It’s not about the regulars and when they would be put off.  It’s about attracting the half interested and maybe’s and you either improve the product or charge less imho.   If we improve next year that’s a start but it might be easier to charge less.  I agree that even that is a gamble that might actually backfire.   Would be in charge eh?

I completely get your point, but the increased gate money would mean more money available to pay players. Which might start to entice better athletes to play the game. Improving the standards, skill levels and the quality of the game.

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4 hours ago, DOGFATHER said:

I completely get your point, but the increased gate money would mean more money available to pay players. Which might start to entice better athletes to play the game. Improving the standards, skill levels and the quality of the game.

The game won’t attract better athletes when we can’t compete with union or football at grassroots 

 

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On 17/11/2021 at 10:46, Blind side johnny said:

I agree that it is a way to go Phil, although a number of our brethren posting on here would be dismayed to note that this only applies to season ticket holders. Last year the club sold barely more than 80 so the grumbles will continue.

Despite all the rumblings about who's going to make most money BSJ  in reality  the scheme was introduced   to try and increase season ticket sales at all the participating clubs

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23 minutes ago, POR said:

Despite all the rumblings about who's going to make most money BSJ  in reality  the scheme was introduced   to try and increase season ticket sales at all the participating clubs

Good point, it makes buying a season ticket even better value for money. When my son had a junior season ticket he got into away games for free.

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On 18/11/2021 at 19:26, NickD said:

I’d agree most of us would pay anyway but It’s not about the regulars and when they would be put off.  It’s about attracting the half interested and maybe’s and you either improve the product or charge less imho.   If we improve next year that’s a start but it might be easier to charge less.  I agree that even that is a gamble that might actually backfire.   Would be in charge eh?

This is a much broader issue though, Nick. It requires attending any RL game to be attractive in the first instance. Many of us, including me no doubt, have allowed or encouraged the game to develop an unfashionable image that simply having a winning season won't overcome. I think Dogfather illustrated the point eloquently. 

Only if the sport acquires a desirable image can smaller clubs tap into that vein of interest. Otherwise, in my opinion, we are fighting over scraps.

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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35 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

This is a much broader issue though, Nick. It requires attending any RL game to be attractive in the first instance. Many of us, including me no doubt, have allowed or encouraged the game to develop an unfashionable image that simply having a winning season won't overcome. I think Dogfather illustrated the point eloquently. 

Only if the sport acquires a desirable image can smaller clubs tap into that vein of interest. Otherwise, in my opinion, we are fighting over scraps.

We shall be forever fighting over scraps then BSJ, no matter how eloquent dog father put it.  If we survive at all of course. 😀
we haven’t allowed the game to get an unfashionable image, so don’t blame yourself.  That image was there from the very start and the media, in its many guises, have propagated that image at every opportunity.  RL is northern and we all know what that means to the mainstream.  That won’t change in my lifetime and longer.   If tv needs to set a northern scene?  Cue the image of terraced houses. 
in the short term I will not be dissuaded from the point that around Dewsbury £18 is too much for the fare on offer.  Sorry. 

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3 hours ago, NickD said:

We shall be forever fighting over scraps then BSJ, no matter how eloquent dog father put it.  If we survive at all of course. 😀
we haven’t allowed the game to get an unfashionable image, so don’t blame yourself.  That image was there from the very start and the media, in its many guises, have propagated that image at every opportunity.  RL is northern and we all know what that means to the mainstream.  That won’t change in my lifetime and longer.   If tv needs to set a northern scene?  Cue the image of terraced houses. 
in the short term I will not be dissuaded from the point that around Dewsbury £18 is too much for the fare on offer.  Sorry. 

I think that the tactics of batter your way up the field with one man drives followed by a kick or a set move isn't that attractive to a newcomer. Last season, one of the games I played with my son was "guess the order of Rams first 3 drives" out of Gabriel, Fleming, Carr. 

Whilst fans can appreciate the tactical nuances, I'll quote a couple of example.

My uncle supported Dewsbury 1960s-80s and took him to a game a couple of seasons ago. He described the game as robotic. Took a few friends from my son's RU team and they looked bored tbh. RU is no better btw.

I watch some games from 80s-90s on YouTube and the PTB is a lot quicker - none of the lying on - and because of 5m offside, teams had to pass to make ground and score. Yes there were more errors, but that added to the swings of play.

I'm now sounding old, but think the game needs to stop assuming that watching one man runs bashing into each other a few hundred times in an "arm wrestle" is attractive to the casual observer. 

Maybe the game needs to move back more to a skill-based game than the current power-based percentage version it has evolved into.

Edited by Wakefield Ram
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2 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

I think that the tactics of batter your way up the field with one man drives followed by a kick or a set move isn't that attractive to a newcomer. Last season, one of the games I played with my son was "guess the order of Rams first 3 drives" out of Gabriel, Fleming, Carr. 

Whilst fans can appreciate the tactical nuances, I'll quote a couple of example.

My uncle supported Dewsbury 1960s-80s and took him to a game a couple of seasons ago. He described the game as robotic. Took a few friends from my son's RU team and they looked bored tbh. RU is no better btw.

I watch some games from 80s-90s on YouTube and the PTB is a lot quicker - none of the lying on - and because of 5m offside, teams had to pass to make ground and score. Yes there were more errors, but that added to the swings of play.

I'm now sounding old, but think the game needs to stop assuming that watching one man runs bashing into each other a few hundred times in an "arm wrestle" is attractive to the casual observer. 

Maybe the game needs to move back more to a skill-based game than the current power-based percentage version it has evolved into.

I 100% agree with what you say.

However, I thought we played an extremely good, open brand of rugby last year. We had a successful season and made the playoffs. Yet the gates didn't shoot up simply because we had a winning, attractive team on the park.

The ground is well appointed with decent facilities. We get plaudits from most away fans that visit. So it's not like the ground is the reason for the lack of attendance from the local community.

Relatively speaking, we have been far more successful than Dewsbury consistently for the last 10 years. Yet the difference in gates at the two club's certainly do not reflect this.

It isn't like the location, competition or demographics are vastly different between the two club's either. Just looking at attendances figures in isolation, you would have no idea of which club had been the more successful.

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On 18/11/2021 at 10:16, Blind side johnny said:

It is a difficulty for all clubs at our level when spectators say they will only come to watch a competitive team play but then object to the entrance prices. This is usually followed by the "speculate to accumulate" comments for which there are a host of examples that show the weakness of that argument. I don't profess to know the answer but do know that RL followers in general are notoriously parsimonious.

As an aside I also notice that Fev are charging £240 (£180 concession) for their season tickets this season and gate price is £20 (£15 concession). I anticipate our season tickets being a comparative bargain.

What do soccer clubs charge for admission? Non-league and lower league would be the comparators I guess - Halifax, Bradford PA, Bradford City etc.

York City FC charge £20 , £15 concession in the sixth tier of football league , they are the only full time squad in the National League North.

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 21/11/2021 at 17:27, Stirlin said:

York City FC charge £20 , £15 concession in the sixth tier of football league , they are the only full time squad in the National League North.

That's why Di-ck Turpin got executed in York🤔

 

 

Because there was far too many highway robbers living in York at the time🤔

 

 

And still alive & kicking to this day🤔

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19 hours ago, coolie said:

That's why Di-ck Turpin got executed in York🤔

 

 

Because there was far too many highway robbers living in York at the time🤔

 

 

And still alive & kicking to this day🤔

He was from Essex and sentenced for horse theft, not highway robbery, for which he was never accused. You must have gone to too many pantomimes.

York don't trade in horses but you may want to comment about donkeys.

(Yes, I am bored.)

Edited by Blind side johnny
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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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