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Ref abuse


Ralgex
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1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Empirically, my view that RL refs at all levels are "generally reluctant" to decide the result of a game with an active last-minute call is based on observation of thousands of games. Especially relevant is hearing their ruck guidance toward the end of a tight game when they`re mic`d up.

In addition, there`s the intuitive assumption that they don`t want to attract controversy and acrimony if they can avoid it. Of course "it takes all sorts", and there may be exceptions.

The incident that prompted this thread is a good example. I reiterate my earlier judgement that 9 times out of 10 a penalty would have been called - wherever it happened on the field and at whatever stage of the game. Hence, the unconventional call would have been passive - to wave play on.

If we were able to examine each of the late calls you cite as having seen, I suspect the same conclusion would apply in the vast majority of cases i.e. something occurred which forced the ref to make a call one way or the other, and logic and precedent determined that call should be active.

I would go with the materialistic comment i made before on a lot of these.. Will they fundamentally change the course of the game.. This one the foul play stopped him having the chance to regather in an attacking play at the end of the game.. I would guess if it hadnt been given then Toll Bar would have (quite rightly) been a tad upset. 

Some other calls at other parts of the pitch may see play on called because "would it materially change the course of the game".. an overcooked kick maybe you let it go as he would never have got there, lying on at the end of the game is often slightly longer as the ref understands about fatigue and it is equal for both sides. 

Refs want a fair game, they want the players to influence it as much as possible but when they decision is clear and obvious I dont remember seeing refs not call it.. when all said and done if a ref doesnt call it they are opening themselves up to an equal barrage of critisism from the other side. why would they do that.. they will just hope that the side understands that THEY are the ones that made the mistake (as Akworth should, twice, once for the pen, second for the idiot opening shouting at the ref) and not the Ref. 

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Pardon my probably ignorance but i can see no threats of violence either on the video or on the posted twitters?

Has it been deleted or something?

 

If it did happen it is 100% not acceptable and clubs should be discouraging their officials and supporters from berating match officials at EVERY level.

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2 hours ago, RP London said:

I know you arent anything to do with Ackworth, known you long enough on here. What i was trying to say was Its different if a fan questions the decision but the club has a duty of care towards the ref. Safety on the pitch (so anyone invading should be dealt with, anyone abusing the ref should be dealt with etc) but also off the pitch after the game etc. 

I would have sympathy with your stance if, as you said, it was an individual who had done it but, in answer to your last question, the original tweet that was quoted in the original post is from the clubs twitter feed, its the clubs saying it was a terrible call etc. and for that they should get hauled over the coals.. 

 

I totally agree with you, the treatment of the referee was totally wrong.

 Are we sure whoever made the tweet for Ackworth is in anyway or form actually part of the club?  I've mentioned elsewhere that when I got back involved with my club we had 3 or 4 social media accounts in the clubs name and the clubs committee didn't have control over any of them, I've got this sorted now except for the website & twitter account which haven't been up dated or used for a very long time.

I'm sure Ackworth will be hauled over the coals as we need referee's, we also need players, who protects the players from the wrong decisions (We had one last season that after the opposition dropped out from under their posts sending the ball out on the full, the referee's decision was to awarded them a play the ball where it went out, same game, we clawed ourselves back from being 14 - 0 down to 22 a piece, they knocked on 10 metres from their line our hooker scooped the ball up and went over under the posts, referee's decision was to give us a play the ball),

 

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I'm sure Ackworth will be hauled over the coals as we need referee's, we also need players, who protects the players from the wrong decisions

Can I ask you to expand on what you mean by this please.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Can I ask you to expand on what you mean by this please.

Yes no problem, we know that referee's are required to have a game, we also need players to have a game, players train in general twice a week and get scrutinised by their coach who decided if they'll get a game or not, who goes out and scrutinises the referee?

Maybe some of the older referee's should put something back into their discipline and go out and become a mentor.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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I have reffed games between two sides I have never reffed before where coaches seem to think I'm against their side. Refs genuinely don't care who wins. Really we don't. At all ever. We just give the decisions we think are right. Yes absolutely we make mistakes, but not half as many as the one-eyed, partisan fans think we make. 

I can't trust touch judges, players or coaches to be honest, many of them would happily cheat to win, but that's okay. Whereas doing an honest job as a ref just gets relentless flack.

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23 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

I have reffed games between two sides I have never reffed before where coaches seem to think I'm against their side. Refs genuinely don't care who wins. Really we don't. At all ever. We just give the decisions we think are right. Yes absolutely we make mistakes, but not half as many as the one-eyed, partisan fans think we make. 

I can't trust touch judges, players or coaches to be honest, many of them would happily cheat to win, but that's okay. Whereas doing an honest job as a ref just gets relentless flack.

Are you saying, as a referee, that you can’t trust touch judges or is that a typo? 

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11 hours ago, Marauder said:

I was asking to clarify the situation (Toll Bar knock on) just before the set of six that resulted in the penalty, two other decisions I could do with clarifying, When the kicker is taken out do we take the penalty where the ball landed or where the kicker was fouled and can player/players drop off of the tackle to allow the ball to be stolen?

The penalty for the block on the kicker is where the ball first lands with the subsequent 10 metres for dissent 10 metres on from there. 

The players dropping off was introduced last season but changes for this next one. Presumably they are still using last seasons laws. It was a rubbish change. 
 

There were about 3 other tackles in the preceding 2 sets by Toll Bar where Ackworth could have been penalised. The referee tried to keep the game going which often goes unnoticed and clearly did by Ackworth

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5 hours ago, Marauder said:

Yes no problem, we know that referee's are required to have a game, we also need players to have a game, players train in general twice a week and get scrutinised by their coach who decided if they'll get a game or not, who goes out and scrutinises the referee?

Maybe some of the older referee's should put something back into their discipline and go out and become a mentor.

Most referees will also train midweek. The older referees tend to look to support the juniors as they are the ones who need the most support etc

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2 minutes ago, Waynebennettswinger said:

Interesting. I am not condoning abuse of any officials but it never ceases to amaze me the abuse that referees get when the touch judges appear to offer little support. 

By Touch Judges I mean the spectator/ fan from either side who “runs” the line. They have limited powers (ie none) and in my experience cause more trouble than they are worth. Outright cheating is common. I just decided not to bother with them 

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1 minute ago, LeeF said:

By Touch Judges I mean the spectator/ fan from either side who “runs” the line. They have limited powers (ie none) and in my experience cause more trouble than they are worth. Outright cheating is common. I just decided not to bother with them 

Ah I see, I knew this went on in junior games but I didn’t know how common it was to have fans run the line tbh. Yeah I agree, if they are all going to cheat then why bother anyway.

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4 hours ago, Waynebennettswinger said:

Are you saying, as a referee, that you can’t trust touch judges or is that a typo? 

At the level I ref, each team provides a touch judge, so not independent and anything near the line I try and get into a position where I don't have to rely on them. So no I can't trust them. 

Even a junior level, you get middle aged men trying to cheat kids on the opposition. Pathetic really.

Edited by Wakefield Ram
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6 hours ago, Marauder said:

Yes no problem, we know that referee's are required to have a game, we also need players to have a game, players train in general twice a week and get scrutinised by their coach who decided if they'll get a game or not, who goes out and scrutinises the referee?

Maybe some of the older referee's should put something back into their discipline and go out and become a mentor.

I’m told this ref is a regular on the line on sky matches in super league. Not sure you can just turn up and blag your way through that without scrutiny? Unless you know something I don’t? 

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15 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

At the level I ref, each team provides a touch judge, so not independent and anything near the line I try and get into a position where I don't have to rely on them. So no I can't trust them. 

Even a junior level, you get middle aged men trying to cheat kids on the opposition. Pathetic really.

Thanks for the explanation as sad as it is to read. 

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33 minutes ago, Ralgex said:

I’m told this ref is a regular on the line on sky matches in super league. Not sure you can just turn up and blag your way through that without scrutiny? Unless you know something I don’t? 

Being a touch judge in super league doesn't necessarily make a good referee does it, for instance, he pulled Ackworth for ball stealing after would be tackled fell of the tackle leaving it a one on one tackle, that would have given the home side very close to the visitors try line with a full set of six.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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25 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Being a touch judge in super league doesn't necessarily make a good referee does it, for instance, he pulled Ackworth for ball stealing after would be tackled fell of the tackle leaving it a one on one tackle, that would have given the home side very close to the visitors try line with a full set of six.

Well I’ve not seen that and happy for you to tell me where in the video this happens. In any case, one decision like that without touch judges present is understandable. 
 

But you didn’t respond properly to my point. You have a paid professional here in the middle of an amateur rugby match. A professional who is likely used to scrutiny and who probably trains more than players, when you include video reviews and other training and learning. So your claim about a lack of scrutiny is false. He probably doesn’t have to do this game but there is a well known shortage of referees out there. 
 

Not much point in continuing this. You sound like either a perennial ref basher, or green-eyed over a rival Doncaster club achieving something…
 

 

Edited by Ralgex
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I’ve run the touch line before for junior games. The teams look for volunteers from the parents so I’ve helped out.

In one game with the littlest of kids the shy fat kid who struggled all game dropped the ball a fraction before he grounded it for a try. It fell from his grip as his body was going down, the ball hit the ground and he then fell on it.

I told the ref it was good. It was a very obvious error so the ref knew I was lying (he gave me a wink and a smirk) and the small crowd knew I was lying but the ref awarded the try anyway and the crowd roared with approval.

The boy was swamped by his teammates, his parents were ecstatic and the crowd for both teams was happy. 

I never did this with the older kids but it was great to do with that boy on that day.

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21 hours ago, Marauder said:

I totally agree with you, the treatment of the referee was totally wrong.

 Are we sure whoever made the tweet for Ackworth is in anyway or form actually part of the club?  I've mentioned elsewhere that when I got back involved with my club we had 3 or 4 social media accounts in the clubs name and the clubs committee didn't have control over any of them, I've got this sorted now except for the website & twitter account which haven't been up dated or used for a very long time.

I'm sure Ackworth will be hauled over the coals as we need referee's, we also need players, who protects the players from the wrong decisions (We had one last season that after the opposition dropped out from under their posts sending the ball out on the full, the referee's decision was to awarded them a play the ball where it went out, same game, we clawed ourselves back from being 14 - 0 down to 22 a piece, they knocked on 10 metres from their line our hooker scooped the ball up and went over under the posts, referee's decision was to give us a play the ball),

 

I would be surprised if someone was running their twitter account who was not part of the club. If that is the case then that is a very dangerous way for the club to act and they are going to find themselves in hot water for it.. frankly you reap what you sow, anything with the club name on it should be controlled by the club. There is no defence saying "that is not the clubs stance" from what i can see. 

In terms of protecting the players.. I am not really sure what you mean here, the players who actually made the errors seem to have got away with this, one player makes an error by making the tackle, the other screaming at the refs face.. but who is getting blamed for losing.. the ref!!! i mean ffs that is ridiculous! the players will be back, maybe a bit peed off but they'll be back, the ref is getting shouted at, berated (by fans and players for an error that was NOT his but one of their team mates), and now called out on social media.. there is no way you can put the 2 together IMHO.

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13 hours ago, Copa said:

I’ve run the touch line before for junior games. The teams look for volunteers from the parents so I’ve helped out.

In one game with the littlest of kids the shy fat kid who struggled all game dropped the ball a fraction before he grounded it for a try. It fell from his grip as his body was going down, the ball hit the ground and he then fell on it.

I told the ref it was good. It was a very obvious error so the ref knew I was lying (he gave me a wink and a smirk) and the small crowd knew I was lying but the ref awarded the try anyway and the crowd roared with approval.

The boy was swamped by his teammates, his parents were ecstatic and the crowd for both teams was happy. 

I never did this with the older kids but it was great to do with that boy on that day.

Exactly the right call and hopefully you weren't met with accusations of being "blind" or a "cheat" from the opposition parents? 

Edited by Wakefield Ram
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13 hours ago, Copa said:

I’ve run the touch line before for junior games. The teams look for volunteers from the parents so I’ve helped out.

In one game with the littlest of kids the shy fat kid who struggled all game dropped the ball a fraction before he grounded it for a try. It fell from his grip as his body was going down, the ball hit the ground and he then fell on it.

I told the ref it was good. It was a very obvious error so the ref knew I was lying (he gave me a wink and a smirk) and the small crowd knew I was lying but the ref awarded the try anyway and the crowd roared with approval.

The boy was swamped by his teammates, his parents were ecstatic and the crowd for both teams was happy. 

I never did this with the older kids but it was great to do with that boy on that day.

that kind of attitude should be applauded, not abused. Really well done, at junior levels the game should be about enjoyment over results in every single game.

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22 hours ago, Marauder said:

Yes no problem, we know that referee's are required to have a game, we also need players to have a game, players train in general twice a week and get scrutinised by their coach who decided if they'll get a game or not, who goes out and scrutinises the referee?

Maybe some of the older referee's should put something back into their discipline and go out and become a mentor.

All refs are subject to review.

There are processes in place, how else would they climb the ladder to the higher levels?

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15 hours ago, Marauder said:

Being a touch judge in super league doesn't necessarily make a good referee does it, for instance, he pulled Ackworth for ball stealing after would be tackled fell of the tackle leaving it a one on one tackle, that would have given the home side very close to the visitors try line with a full set of six.

We could debate many incidents in this game and decide the ref made an error. In fact you could do this with every game. Refs will make errors just as players do, we forgive a player knocking on but despise and criticise a ref for an error. 

Identifying an error in a game doesn't prove the ref is poor or cheated, it merely means they made a mistake. Some fans think this justifies screaming in their faces, some coaches believe their job is to badger the ref, I just find it bizarre.

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