Beaumont's Thoughts on Toronto and France

[Toby Chopra]

12 hours ago, Scubby said:

Are they not justifying their inclusion by providing one of the best teams in the competition?

Have people on Sky/BBC and at various stadiums not enjoyed watching Stacey Jones, James Maloney, Thomas Bosc, Sam Tomkins etc. How #### would Super League 2022 be this year if you took Catalans out of that top 4?

Are Catalans an important part of overseas rights sales? Because of their success and NRL recruitment they are now one of the most recognised SL teams in Australia.

It is SL's job to commercialise their product not Catalans or Toulouse.

 

Yes, this is the ultimate justification for Catalans - they have grown into an elite SL club that is financially stable and able to put out a team that can compete for the title. This adds signifcant value to the product. If they were replaced by another English yo-yo club living on the edge of ruin and targeting an 11th place finish it would be a NET negative to SL, and the top end of the game would be even shallower and vulnerable than it already is. (Although I accept there would be a few more dish sales in Leigh, or kids keeping playing in Fev etc). 

As things stand, there is NO other English club - whether heartland like Leigh or Bradford, or expansion like Newcastle or London - that looks like it could make the transition to a long-term financially strong, title challenging club. 

However, it would be also fair to say that there's no guarantee that Toulouse can make this transition either, even if given 3 years in SL. Market size and local economy doesn't guarantee anything. Catalans were an exceptional, best case scenario for French RL. 

If we can get a French TV deal or significant sponsorship, I'd lock Toulouse in for good. Until that day comes, some sort of P&R remains the best, if imperfect, way to do it. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

If you dont believe anyone in France would ever want to invest in a current or new rugby league team, regardless of whether there is a cost effective pathway to SL, that is fine.

So what differentiates the backers in France to those in the UK, let me just say firstly that in this country and I should imagine also in France that there is not much in return if any at all for your investment it is not a normal buisness deal investing in Rugby League, it is a passion, that is what in the main of those who invest in teams are local lads 'done good' as is the same with Catalan and Mr Guasch. 

You obviously believe this is a stick and carrot excersize put the pathway of SL in focus and Frenchmen will clamour to invest, no I don't believe it, there are some clubs in Elite 1 with long and illustrious histories in their domestic comp, why haven't they come forward to try to emulate the success of Catalan?

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So what differentiates the backers in France to those in the UK, let me just say firstly that in this country and I should imagine also in France that there is not much in return if any at all for your investment it is not a normal buisness deal investing in Rugby League, it is a passion, that is what in the main of those who invest in teams are local lads 'done good' as is the same with Catalan and Mr Guasch. 

You obviously believe this is a stick and carrot excersize put the pathway of SL in focus and Frenchmen will clamour to invest, no I don't believe it, there are some clubs in Elite 1 with long and illustrious histories in their domestic comp, why haven't they come forward to try to emulate the success of Catalan?

2 main reasons that underpin the most important factor: money.

1. most of the teams are in Villages Harry

2. The deal on offer has changed since Catalans were introduced.

Its no surprise that the only French RL team able and willing to compete in the new environment comes from the largest city in which the sport has a club. I'd argue Catalans themselves would struggle if they started now.

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

If we can get a French TV deal or significant sponsorship, I'd lock Toulouse in for good. Until that day comes, some sort of P&R remains the best, if imperfect, way to do it. 

As I said in my previous answer to Scubby, Catalan were given very preferred terms on entry to SL and made the most of it, you say no other club in the England could emulate and stay long term, but with due respect Toby you are making that claim regarding Catalan with hindsight, the simple fact of the matter is you simply don't have a crystal ball to look in the future to substansiate if say Newcastle were given 3 years Grace and had the backers that they wouldn't  stay in SL long term.

So what differentiates Toulouse given the same terms as Catalan would they not be a success? And I point that to all the ambitious English clubs not just the French ones, and even more so if they could be locked in permanently.

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

2 main reasons that underpin the most important factor: money.

1. most of the teams are in Villages Harry

2. The deal on offer has changed since Catalans were introduced.

Its no surprise that the only French RL team able and willing to compete in the new environment comes from the largest city in which the sport has a club. I'd argue Catalans themselves would struggle if they started now.

Yes I am well aware Tommy of the demographics were most Elite I teams are from, albeit there are exceptions.

Reading what you are saying, are you actually agreeing with me in my reply to Shropshire Bull?

[RayCee]

57 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Assuming Sky don't care (I agree), the point that has some merit is that if they were happy to pay the £25m for 12 English teams then the £3m per year routed to France could be routed to two more English SL teams. 

I know some people look upon English clubs with disdain, but the clubs are the best tools for promotion, development, attracting players and fans in the game. 

There is an argument that two more English teams would make the game stronger in England with that £3m investment in the UK and not France. 

It's a viewpoint with some merit. It's not one I go with, I think investing in France is worth it, but I can understand why some feel that the English game can't afford to spend £3m in another territory. 

Do you think Dave that English SL clubs are doing much with their Sky payout to develop the sport?  

[theswanmcr]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

No thanks Swanny, you are obviously oblivious that the people of both towns would not relish such a merger and it is much deeper than just the rugby side of the matter.

It was a joke - and a response to Deano who keeps saying that Catalans have had it easy with not being admitted to SL by promotion and then relegation exemption etc.

The reality is that they realised that they needed to merge to create a bigger and stronger entity that represented a much wider area and population.

Leigh (and others, including some already in SL) are never going to make as big an impact as Catalans - even with those ‘benefits’ - without something drastic happening like I jokingly suggested.

 

[Toby Chopra]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said in my previous answer to Scubby, Catalan were given very preferred terms on entry to SL and made the most of it, you say no other club in the England could emulate and stay long term, but with due respect Toby you are making that claim regarding Catalan with hindsight, the simple fact of the matter is you simply don't have a crystal ball to look in the future to substansiate if say Newcastle were given 3 years Grace and had the backers that they wouldn't  stay in SL long term.

So what differentiates Toulouse given the same terms as Catalan would they not be a success? And I point that to all the ambitious English clubs not just the French ones, and even more so if they could be locked in permanently.

 

I don't actually think we're that far apart Harry, I wasn't trying to re-litigate the past on how Catalans were brought in, I was seeking to answer DB's question of what do French clubs bring NOW (and implicitly asking, should we kick them out?) 

To me, there's no case for kicking out Catalans that wouldn't cause significant net harm to SL, and ultimately the English game as a whole. 

For Toulouse, it's less clear cut, but I don't see anything in the short term that would justify kicking them out entirely. So I think they should be able to compete for a place in SL with any other club on an even playing field. 

The issues of licensing, protection from relegation (for any club) etc are separate debates. 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Do you think Dave that English SL clubs are doing much with their Sky payout to develop the sport?  

Yes I do. I absolutely do. I don't go along with the contempt for our clubs that many here do.

I think our clubs are generally brilliant. I think they do a hell of a lot of good work, whether that is player development, engagement with the communities, the work with their foundations, the number of fans they bring in. 

For such small businesses I think they have a great footprint within their areas and I think they are doing a good job. The same goes for those clubs outside of SL too. 

None of the above means that they can't do better and that they don't make mistakes, but we are far, far too negative about our clubs, when we should be proud of what they do.

[The Future is League]

14 hours ago, DEANO said:

Err. Catalan never got there on merit

Leigh were gifted a super league spot by Robert Elstone.

How much money did he cost the game?

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Nobody has dealt with this obvious problem in Mr Beaumont's logic...

The fact that he thinks a fat middle aged man can carry off wearing a leopard print shell suit jacket ?

[RayCee]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes I do. I absolutely do. I don't go along with the contempt for our clubs that many here do.

I think our clubs are generally brilliant. I think they do a hell of a lot of good work, whether that is player development, engagement with the communities, the work with their foundations, the number of fans they bring in. 

For such small businesses I think they have a great footprint within their areas and I think they are doing a good job. The same goes for those clubs outside of SL too. 

None of the above means that they can't do better and that they don't make mistakes, but we are far, far too negative about our clubs, when we should be proud of what they do.

I appreciate your reply. My perception from 18,000 kms away is that clubs outside SL do a great job but SL clubs themselves not so much. I saw them as scouting talent developed elsewhere. 

[Gambass]

57 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

If we can get a French TV deal or significant sponsorship, I'd lock Toulouse in for good. Until that day comes, some sort of P&R remains the best, if imperfect, way to do it. 

 

People need to forget about that. It won't happen. The TV sport market has become hellish for non major sports here (basically any sport not named football or RU) : Ice hockey and Volleyball have been locked out of proper TV channels. Basketball went from a 10 M€/year contract to 0. Only handball manage to still secure a bit of money (4M€ a year).

They all are more popular sports than RL, with a much (much !) better national footprint than RL.

At best, french clubs could find someone willing to pay for the production costs and that's it. French presence in SL has to be considered under these circonstances and stop dreaming about anything else TV-wise.

 

[Harry Stottle]

19 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Because as I pointed out if you bothered to read it that my arguement wasnt focussed on current clubs and we now require french clubs to lose millions on plane flights and travel to maybe get through the uk pyramid to even have the opportunity as Catalan .

A clamor? No. One or two more clubs of strong commercial potential within 5 years of adopting the policy? Yes. 

You have less confidence in the future of the game in France and disagree.  Fair enough

Yes I did read it Salop that is why I stated that those who invest in RL are in the main local lads who have a lifelong connection with their club and have done good financially , it is the same with Catalan. Tell me the last "New Club" out of all those away from the heartlands over here who have really excelled and still prosper in the game, I think it is a nice round figure 0, and I suspect that will be the same in France in a niche sport like RL simply because there is very little return on investment, even money men like Mr Leneghan and Mr Hughes steeped in the game who tried it away from the heartlands failed, go on then suggest some cities in France where it could work, and don't forget to take into consideration places were other sports are already entrenched, like over here with Sheffield, Coventry, Oxford, Gloucester, Nottingham, Mansfield should I go on?

[Scubby]

A real question to ask DB is that the Sky deal has dropped from £40 to £25m and SL are effectively on a warning.

If you bin off Catalans and Toulouse and effectively become an M62 sport how do you convince Sky to continue to pay significant amounts in the next deal? How does that £25m become £40m and not £15m?

Because in effect what we are talking about here is fighting over central distribution scraps than actually growing the competition.

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Do you think Dave that English SL clubs are doing much with their Sky payout to develop the sport?  

If I may answer that Ray, no not whatsoever, they can't even help their local community clubs who produce the player's they will need in years to come, so do you expect they will willingly want to develop the sport in another country?

[RayCee]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If I may answer that Ray, no not whatsoever, they can't even help their local community clubs who produce the player's they will need in years to come, so do you expect they will willingly want to develop the sport in another country?

Most welcome to answer Harry. An interesting point you make as well.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

A real question to ask DB is that the Sky deal has dropped from £40 to £25m and SL are effectively on a warning.

If you bin off Catalans and Toulouse and effectively become an M62 sport how do you convince Sky to continue to pay significant amounts in the next deal? How does that £25m become £40m and not £15m?

Because in effect what we are talking about here is fighting over central distribution scraps than actually growing the competition.

So in another way, France in your eyes are the oft stated saviours of the game?

[Davo5]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So in another way, France in your eyes are the oft stated saviours of the game?

Well it took 4 pages for that old chestnut to rear its head,we’ll done.

[Dunbar]

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If I may answer that Ray, no not whatsoever, they can't even help their local community clubs who produce the player's they will need in years to come, so do you expect they will willingly want to develop the sport in another country?

The Wigan Warriors Community Foundation (the Wigan Warriors official charity) deliver a wide range of programmes including Rugby League coaching sessions through to programmes that improve health, wellbeing and improving the career prospects of young people and adults

They deliver programmes to over 10,000 people a year and you can see on the website today all of the junior camps they will be running over the Easter holidays.  It is disingenuous to suggest that Super League clubs so nothing to develop the sport and support the community. 

[Toby Chopra]

27 minutes ago, Gambass said:

People need to forget about that. It won't happen. The TV sport market has become hellish for non major sports here (basically any sport not named football or RU) : Ice hockey and Volleyball have been locked out of proper TV channels. Basketball went from a 10 M€/year contract to 0. Only handball manage to still secure a bit of money (4M€ a year).

They all are more popular sports than RL, with a much (much !) better national footprint than RL.

At best, french clubs could find someone willing to pay for the production costs and that's it. French presence in SL has to be considered under these circonstances and stop dreaming about anything else TV-wise.

 

Thanks, that does indeed seem to be the situation, and we need to be honest about that. 

But even a production costs deal for 26 games a year would be enough, given there would be a sell on value to Sky which would effectively cover the French clubs' distribution. 

But at the moment we don't have even that, so it's a concern.

[Tubby]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The Wigan Warriors Community Foundation (the Wigan Warriors official charity) deliver a wide range of programmes including Rugby League coaching sessions through to programmes that improve health, wellbeing and improving the career prospects of young people and adults

They deliver programmes to over 10,000 people a year and you can see on the website today all of the junior camps they will be running over the Easter holidays.  It is disingenuous to suggest that Super League clubs so nothing to develop the sport and support the community. 

This is also true of other SL clubs and Championship Clubs.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Tubby said:

This is also true of other SL clubs and Championship Clubs.

Indeed it is. I am simply using Wigan as an example to counter someone saying that Super League clubs do nothing to develop the sport.  As you say, I could have chosen any number of clubs to make the same point.  That is a good thing.

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So in another way, France in your eyes are the oft stated saviours of the game?

I think this is the strawman Mr Beaumont thinks he is fighting here with his comments.

Its deeply worrying that he doesn't see the problem for his own club by making these arguments.

[Davo5]

7 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Thanks, that does indeed seem to be the situation, and we need to be honest about that. 

But even a production costs deal for 26 games a year would be enough, given there would be a sell on value to Sky which would effectively cover the French clubs' distribution. 

But at the moment we don't have even that, so it's a concern.

Don’t Catalans pay for their home games production costs,which allows Sky to broadcast Saturday games ?