RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Dave T]

40 minutes ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

I also recall some sort of reference about pricing, I’m sure there was an early bird offer where it stated (paraphrasing) ‘they won’t be cheaper than this again’.

I do think they need to hold the pricing tho, rugby league is terrible for last minute fire sales. Personally I never buy for events until the last minute, even when I know I’m going to go because I don’t want to have paid over the odds - it’s become a trained/learned behaviour due to years of RFL last minute discounts. If there is one positive from the RLWC approach it could the be the RFL using it is an opp to reset their pricing approach. 

There is a challenge though that as long as games never sell out, people will buy late. 

I always buy late, but it is never, and I mean literally never for a discount. I have no interest in buying tickets a year in advance for something I'm not sure I'd be able to attend. I understand why companies want early sales - but it isn't great for customers, hence the discount.

You won't fix this issue through unreasonable pricing, you fix it by selling out grounds. That leads to people buying in advance and flash sales are never needed. 

But this is a different issue to challenge cup for example, as the tickets are never expensive anyway. 

[Dave T]

This was the paragraph about early bird pricing. 

2020 promotional rate ticket prices

Fans are rewarded for buying in 2020 with promotional rates; 80 per cent of tickets are under £50, double header Old Trafford final tickets start from £30 and a family of four can attend France v Greece for an affordable £35. Tickets will increase in 2021.

 

 

The last line is relevant, but it is some way short of a price promise. 

https://www.rlwc2021.com/article/251/everything-you-need-to-know-regarding-the-rlwc2021-priority-access-sale

 

[JohnM]

The soccer world cup is in Qatar. Presumably most spectators are there on formal tours. 

When there are rugby union (and krikit)  world cups and test series in Aus and NZ, UK fans travel there in numbers, on club tours or extended holidays 

Whilst it seems that the countries taking part in our world cup have their fans, I wonder how many are here on tours and how much they add to spectator numbers.

[Leyther_Matt]

20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This was the paragraph about early bird pricing. 

2020 promotional rate ticket prices

Fans are rewarded for buying in 2020 with promotional rates; 80 per cent of tickets are under £50, double header Old Trafford final tickets start from £30 and a family of four can attend France v Greece for an affordable £35. Tickets will increase in 2021.

 

 

The last line is relevant, but it is some way short of a price promise. 

https://www.rlwc2021.com/article/251/everything-you-need-to-know-regarding-the-rlwc2021-priority-access-sale

 

Tbf Dave I’m another who is absolutely positive there was a price guarantee. Website had an image that looked like a passport stamp kind of thing?

 

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

On atmosphere I think part of it is that day games just don’t feel the same. At night under the lights is always when RL looks best and If you got back and look at those games vs Australia in tri nations at night the atmosphere is electric. 

BBC want it in the day though. 

As you say I think that’s a trade of BBC or Sky. I recall one Four Nations game at Wigan in particular Vs the Aussies and it was bouncing on King St by mid afternoon. Come a few more beers and the ground was an absolute bear pit at kick off. Brilliant. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Tbf Dave I’m another who is absolutely positive there was a price guarantee. Website had an image that looked like a passport stamp kind of thing?

 

That stamp was the refund guarantee. A covid thing. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dave T

[Dave T]

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/57115/rlwc-priority-access-tickets-now-available

Another press release during the early bird window. 

Interesting snippet:

RLWC2021 Customer Director, Terri Lynam, added: “Our ticketing strategy has been designed to reward the supporters, players, coaches and officials who make up the Rugby League Family via priority access. They can purchase tickets for themselves, and their friends and families, including their children. "

 

But no price guarantee. 

I can only assume that if people have heard that, it has been in interviews, podcasts etc. because it doesn't look like it appears in any official early bird releases, including the FAQ's and marketing guff. If it was such a big promise at the time, surely one of these releases would have mentioned it? 

[Guest]

Clarified - the IRL are paid a set fee which is double what they have got for any other World Cup. That is factored into the “break even” calculation.

From Steve Mascord Twitter. 

 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

Was talking about atmosphere not attendance so clearly you didnt

Did you see how many kids were in the crowd yesterday? If that game had been in the evening they’d have been looking at a 15k attendance. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Leonard said:

Clarified - the IRL are paid a set fee which is double what they have got for any other World Cup. That is factored into the “break even” calculation.

From Steve Mascord Twitter. 

 

Yeah, that's been confirmed over the last few days, unfortunately we don't know what that fee is. 

[pahars]

24 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, that's been confirmed over the last few days, unfortunately we don't know what that fee is. 

Can’t we work it out? We know what the declared profit was for most previous tournaments. Has there been anything reported on how it used to be split?

[Big Picture]

4,415 for Samoa vs Greece, making the total now 150,133 and the average 10,723.

[Odsal Outlaw]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

There is a challenge though that as long as games never sell out, people will buy late. 

I always buy late, but it is never, and I mean literally never for a discount. I have no interest in buying tickets a year in advance for something I'm not sure I'd be able to attend. I understand why companies want early sales - but it isn't great for customers, hence the discount.

You won't fix this issue through unreasonable pricing, you fix it by selling out grounds. That leads to people buying in advance and flash sales are never needed. 

But this is a different issue to challenge cup for example, as the tickets are never expensive anyway. 

I’m similar in that I don’t buy early if I don’t need to … but also knowing the discount culture that re-affirms my approach. I’m happy to pay full price but then feel a bit cheated if the bloke next to me has paid half the amount late in the day.

You have a good point on demand though, I’ve always planned to go to the England QF at Wigan as an example. I knew there was not going to be an issue getting tickets but when they re-confirmed it on social media that Eng were at Wigan and we hammered Samoa I snapped up £35 tickets straight away as there aren’t loads of sections at that price and I was sure they’d sell out.

I still remember the 2013 RLWC game Eng v Ire at Huddersfield. Walking to the ground with ticket touts all around for what was a proper sell out. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Odsal Outlaw

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, pahars said:

Can’t we work it out? We know what the declared profit was for most previous tournaments. Has there been anything reported on how it used to be split?

Didn't the post say double the previous fee? That's slightly different to profit (although may technically be the same). 

We know there was almost £4m profit, so I'd hope the fee is more than that, but it could easily be a minimum of £2m and then profit share over and above that. It'll all depend on the agreed commercials. 

[pahars]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

I don't know if they are, I was posing the question as it is quite normal and I cant see France hosting it otherwise. I have not seen the particulars of the Government support to comment on operational costs but again would presume there is Government support there too. Then obviously you have the normal ticket sales and sponsors. This is all in line with the World Cup this year and other sporting tournaments.

Quite simply I don't think France would be hosting the World Cup unless the bid had received substantial funding and guarantees from the French Government. 

I hear you mate and I would hope that too. I just find it really weird that the first anything was reported about a staging fee for the World Cup was about a week ago and a long time after the French bid was accepted. 
 

Why not be more transparent if there is guaranteed money for International Rugby League? 

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

I’m similar in that I don’t buy early if I don’t need to … but also knowing the discount culture that re-affirms my approach. I’m happy to pay full price but then feel a bit cheated if the bloke next to me has paid half the amount late in the day.

You have a good point on demand though, I’ve always planned to go to the England QF at Wigan as an example. I knew there was not going to be an issue getting tickets but when they re-confirmed it on social media that Eng were at Wigan and we hammered Samoa I snapped up £35 tickets straight away as there aren’t loads of sections at that price and I was sure they’d sell out.

I still remember the 2013 RLWC game Eng v Ire at Huddersfield. Walking to the ground with ticket touts all around for what was a proper sell out. 

I do agree with the principle of reducing reliance on flash sales. I think the problem is that I'm not convinced we needed to use the RLWC as the vehicle to do that. Especially as RLWC is technically not the RFL or SLE and I wouldn't be surprised to see discounting continue into next year and beyond. 

I think this is a cultural change that may take a few years, and I'd rather we had done that with our CUP finals, Grand Finals and regular internationals etc. rather than limiting what actions we are prepared to take. 

We are where we are now, we've made our bed, I think they've been a bit silly tbh, I don't think you should ever take any option off the table, and I think it has shown real naivity, but that's their prerogative, and we are seeing the results of that. 

And this isn't to say pricing is necessarily the biggest problem, but it is the one thing you can do something with quickly - we can't move a game from HJ Stadium and hope to fill Wimbledon instead. 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, pahars said:

I hear you mate and I would hope that too. I just find it really weird that the first anything was reported about a staging fee for the World Cup was about a week ago and a long time after the French bid was accepted. 
 

Why not be more transparent if there is guaranteed money for International Rugby League? 

Staging fees are quite common though, I understand. I was the first to introduce it into this thread, before Mascord or any official mentioned it. Because it is something that happens. As Damien pointed out in that discussion a few days ago, its the model used by RUWC. 

As soon as break even was mentioned, it made it likely that a fee had been paid - otherwise it was a disaster. 

But tbh, the quality of journalism means that business and financial analysis of the sport is very lightweight. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dave T

[pahars]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Staging fees are quite common though, I understand. I was the first to introduce it into this thread, before Mascord or any official mentioned it. Because it is something that happens. As Damien pointed out in that discussion a few days ago, its the model used by RUWC. 

As soon as break even was mentioned, it made it likely that a fee had been paid - otherwise it was a disaster. 

But tbh, the quality of journalism means that business and financial analysis of the sport is very lightweight. 

Dave (and indeed Damien) I get that it is the Union model and I am not disapproving of it. My point is that it has not been mentioned til slap bang in the middle of the World Cup with nobody actually knowing what terms the next one is agreed on. 
 

I’m glad that we are moving from a kind of sale or return strategy to this is a quality product it costs this much.

I might be being simple (it’s highly possible after the week I’ve had) but has the government paid this tournaments staging fee? 

[Big Picture]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Didn't the post say double the previous fee? That's slightly different to profit (although may technically be the same). 

We know there was almost £4m profit, so I'd hope the fee is more than that, but it could easily be a minimum of £2m and then profit share over and above that. It'll all depend on the agreed commercials. 

Double the previous maximum profit wasn't it?  That would suggest 7-8 million £ and that would suggest that they learned their lesson from 2017 when the promised 10 million Australian dollars didn't materialize.

Just now, pahars said:

Dave (and indeed Damien) I get that it is the Union model and I am not disapproving of it. My point is that it has not been mentioned til slap bang in the middle of the World Cup with nobody actually knowing what terms the next one is agreed on. 
 

I’m glad that we are moving from a kind of sale or return strategy to this is a quality product it costs this much.

I might be being simple (it’s highly possible after the week I’ve had) but has the government paid this tournaments staging fee? 

They may have done effectively.  If the fee was double the previous maximum profit, it's difficult to see where else the money might have come from.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Double the previous maximum profit wasn't it?  That would suggest 7-8 million £ and that would suggest that they learned their lesson from 2017 when the promised 10 million Australian dollars didn't materialize.

Hopefully, I haven't seen/heard what Mascord actually said. 

I suggested £10m, but that was more hopeful than anything! 

[pahars]

36 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Double the previous maximum profit wasn't it?  That would suggest 7-8 million £ and that would suggest that they learned their lesson from 2017 when the promised 10 million Australian dollars didn't materialize.

They may have done effectively.  If the fee was double the previous maximum profit, it's difficult to see where else the money might have come from.

So (and forgive me again for even later, being being thicker) why are the organisers so obsessed with ‘break even’ ?

It’s almost like there was no real northern powerhouse funding and the whole thing is a massive contra deal. 

[Jim from Oz]

3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

4,415 for Samoa vs Greece, making the total now 150,133 and the average 10,723.

That is a VERY odd figure … it looked like there were way more people at SAM v GRE last night than at the previous game at Doncaster (FRA v GRE) but the figure for that later game was 4182  !

[Jim from Oz]

17 hours ago, Jim from Oz said:

TOTAL after week 1: 95,243 (11,905 per match)
 

Fiji vs Italy: 3,675 
England v France: 23,638 
New Zealand v Jamaica: 6,829 

UPDATED TOTAL: 139,661  (average 11,638)

TARGETS:

2000 RLWC: 263,921

(8,514 per match)

 

2017 RLWC: 382,080

(13,646 per match)

 

2013 RLWC: 458,483

(16,374 per match)

 

2022 WOMEN’S EURO: 574,865

(18,544 per match)

 

ORIGINAL TARGET: 750,000

TOTAL after week 1: 95,243 (11,905 per match)
 

Lebanon v Ireland: 6,057 
Samoa v Greece: 4,415 

UPDATED TOTAL: 150,133 (average 10,723).

TARGETS:

2000 RLWC: 263,921

(8,514 per match)

 

2017 RLWC: 382,080

(13,646 per match)

 

2013 RLWC: 458,483

(16,374 per match)

 

2022 WOMEN’S EURO: 574,865

(18,544 per match)

 

ORIGINAL TARGET: 750,000

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

That is a VERY odd figure … it looked like there were way more people at SAM v GRE last night than at the previous game at Doncaster (FRA v GRE) but the figure for that later game was 4182  !

On the Samoa vs Greece match thread a couple of members suggested that there was a problem with the turnstiles and some speccies weren't counted, how accurate that is I don't know.  They thought the crowd was in the 6,000 range which is about 40% of capacity but I wouldn't say that it looked that full.

[Jim from Oz]

So with 6 out of 8 games of week 2 completed, we are tracking at about 65,000 - 70,000 for the week.

If week 3 also gets 70,000, that will be approx. 235,000 after the group games.

If we take a reasonably optimistic prospect of 225,000 for the Q/Fs onwards, we are tracking at JUST hitting the 2013 RLWC target of 458,483.

However, the total possible ticket sales for the Q/Fs onwards is more or less 260,000, so at an absolute best-case scenario we are looking at a RLWC 2021(22) total attendance of 495,000.

(This of course is for the men's tournament only)

My fingers remain crossed !  

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jim from Oz

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, pahars said:

So (and forgive me again for even later, being being thicker) why are the organisers so obsessed with ‘break even’ ?

It’s almost like there was no real northern powerhouse funding and the whole thing is a massive contra deal. 

The tournament was apparently awarded to England on the basis of a bid which guaranteed a set fee for IRL, which was presumably paid out of the Northern Powerhouse funding.  That means the organizers need to bring in enough revenue to cover all their other expenses, minus whatever part of the NP funding they still have in the bank.