What to do about NH Rugby League

[crashmon]

Not trying to put any sort of negative on the World cup so far, but after the group stages its apparent that apart from England, the gulf between the SH and NH teams is vast. I was hoping France could keep Samoa close,but it was a wipeout, and wales, Ireland also even further behind and scotland could not get past Italy.

So how do we close the gap.   How can we get France strong enough to be competitive in 2025 to teams like Fiji, Samoa etc.  Because right now I do not see how we can close the gap

[Abicus]

Play rugby league test matches every year against one another would be a start.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, crashmon said:

So how do we close the gap.   How can we get France strong enough to be competitive in 2025 to teams like Fiji, Samoa etc.  Because right now I do not see how we can close the gap

Why is the onus on we Crashmon, I have been having a discussion about this very same subject on the Samoa v France thread in that it is 3 years from the next World Cup, we need to get our preparations for our own interests correct first and foremost in enabling us to win the '25 competition, will any other nation taking part in that competition have to be concerned about assisting country?

[hw88]

8 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Not trying to put any sort of negative on the World cup so far, but after the group stages its apparent that apart from England, the gulf between the SH and NH teams is vast. I was hoping France could keep Samoa close,but it was a wipeout, and wales, Ireland also even further behind and scotland could not get past Italy.

So how do we close the gap.   How can we get France strong enough to be competitive in 2025 to teams like Fiji, Samoa etc.  Because right now I do not see how we can close the gap

The only way forward is to encourage domestic leagues. Coaches could be sent to give seminars. Heritage players could do a bit of coaching (assuming they actually go to the country they represent) - if they are keen to develop the game rather than just playing in a world cup it should be no hardship for them.

On top of that a regular international season played in either a mid-season break or at the end of the season - or split between both.

[OriginalMrC]

Two French teams consistently in Superleague would be a start. France realistically are the only country in the NH who have potential to be competitive against the best teams. Wales have potential too but are some way off. Ireland, Italy and Scotland have loads to do not least because they don't have proper domestic competitions. Serbia again has potential but further back still and really need support to grow because they do at least have a domestic competition. 

Just realised I missed Greece off this and Lebanon. Greece has potential and did at least play domestic players. They are still behind the likes of Wales but with some support could continue to grow. Lebanon are competitive but is the sport growing there? Not even sure they have a domestic competition any more? 

Edited October 31, 2022 by OriginalMrC

[crashmon]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why is the onus on we Crashmon, I have been having a discussion about this very same subject on the Samoa v France thread in that it is 3 years from the next World Cup, we need to get our preparations for our own interests correct first and foremost in enabling us to win the '25 competition, will any other nation taking part in that competition have to be concerned about assisting country?

The issue is that England need regular competitive rugby for 2025....

With the Ocenaia cup gaining strength, can we safely assume a SH team will tour every year, or will England tour down under every year.   Where are the games for England coming from?  As the combined nations is not the answer

[Guest]

1 minute ago, crashmon said:

The issue is that England need regular competitive rugby for 2025....

With the Ocenaia cup gaining strength, can we safely assume a SH team will tour every year, or will England tour down under every year.   Where are the games for England coming from?  As the combined nations is not the answer

England might have to just travel down under if possible.

The other scenarios all look like money pits with no return - France possibly aside.

[Damien]

I think there are two levels of development, but both require the player pool in the northern hemisphere needing to expand.

In the first group, the likes of Ireland and Scotland, that means proper bona fide domestic competitions. That has to then lead towards semi-professional teams for them to really progress. The likes of Serbia, Greece and Turkey actually seem further down that road, but the development is practically the same, build on what they have and try to professionalise.

France and Wales are much further down that line and they both need more full-time professional players to pick from. That means more full-time players and clubs.

The heritage route is built on sand really and has seen absolutely no progress in the nations that rely on it.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Damien

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, Leonard said:

England might have to just travel down under if possible.

The other scenarios all look like money pits with no return - France possibly aside.

Australia won’t want to host us & a tour not involving them has always been a big loss maker.

[MatthewWoody]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think there are two levels of development, but both require the player pool in the northern hemisphere needs to expand.

In the first group, the likes of Ireland and Scotland, that means proper bona fide domestic competitions. That has to then lead towards semi-professional teams for them to really progress. The likes of Serbia, Greece and Turkey actually seem further down that road, but the development is practically the same, build on what they have and try to professionalise.

France and Wales are much further down that line and they both need more full-time professional players to pick from. That means more full-time players and clubs.

The heritage route is built on sand really and has seen absolutely no progress in the nations that rely on it.

I still fail to understand how it's the heritage players' job to develop the game locally. If they want to help ok, but the two things are not connected. 
You can have local development and heritage players giving us and the World Cup some proper (not amateur) teams.  
There have been work on the domestic field in the likes of Scotland, Italy, Ireland, etc. It's not perfect, a lot have been lost, it's all voluntary work, made by people who dedicate RL their free time and resourses. 
Having the best eligible players playing in the most important test match has nothing to do with local development. I'll tell you more: domestic players who were with the teams this World Cup learnt a lot by training with professional players. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, crashmon said:

With the Ocenaia cup gaining strength, can we safely assume a SH team will tour every year, or will England tour down under every year

If by that you mean a tour to the UK by an Oceana country or an England tour down under that is fine, but anyone who expects that being reliant on Fixtures Inter-European against teams including France will be sufficient preperation it will certainly not be sufficient.

[Davo5]

37 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Not trying to put any sort of negative on the World cup so far, but after the group stages its apparent that apart from England, the gulf between the SH and NH teams is vast. I was hoping France could keep Samoa close,but it was a wipeout, and wales, Ireland also even further behind and scotland could not get past Italy.

So how do we close the gap.   How can we get France strong enough to be competitive in 2025 to teams like Fiji, Samoa etc.  Because right now I do not see how we can close the gap

More exposure to International competition,it’s ridiculous how little RL is played at international level in the NH.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Australia won’t want to host us & a tour not involving them has always been a big loss maker.

I don't think we have a choice and wasn't suggesting we just play Australia. 

It's that or NZ on repeat every autumn.

The other home nations will not be competitive in my lifetime. Doesn't mean efforts cannot be made to improve them - but they are unlikely to bear real tangible fruits for decades and something is needed in the meantime.

I'm sure using NRL players and flying another 15 odd down is possible for a game or two a year.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

I still fail to understand how it's the heritage players' job to develop the game locally. If they want to help ok, but the two things are not connected. 
You can have local development and heritage players giving us and the World Cup some proper (not amateur) teams.  
There have been work on the domestic field in the likes of Scotland, Italy, Ireland, etc. It's not perfect, a lot have been lost, it's all voluntary work, made by people who dedicate RL their free time and resourses. 
Having the best eligible players playing in the most important test match has nothing to do with local development. I'll tell you more: domestic players who were with the teams this World Cup learnt a lot by training with professional players. 

What are you going on about and why are you confused? My post was quite simple.

I have not dismissed heritage players. I have not said you can't have them. Indeed, I barely made reference to them other than say it is an approach built on sand, which it is. It is though a short cut which will not work in the long run and which will do nothing to develop the game in those countries beyond what we have seen. In Scotland there is next to nothing domestically, Ireland less than a decade ago, which in itself was little. I'm fine with having heritage teams but it will not make Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Greece et al any more competitive than they currently are and it is very likely that in time these countries will only get worse.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Damien

[MatthewWoody]

Sand... it's not their job to develop the game locally. Involving them is useful to give us a watchable World Cup and games played at a decent standard. 

This idea that the nations using players representing their family roots haven't tried to develop homegrown talent is simply... wrong. They have tried and most often failed, alas. They failed because it's not easy, they're volounteers, money is tight, etc. 

I'm ok for the biggest picture and the long run. But involving heritage players takes nothing away from local development. In fact, it often helps it.

 

[crashmon]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If by that you mean a tour to the UK by an Oceana country or an England tour down under that is fine, but anyone who expects that being reliant on Fixtures Inter-European against teams including France will be sufficient preperation it will certainly not be sufficient.

Fully agree, hence this post.  As I don't believe relying on SH tours is the long term future.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, MatthewWoody said:

Sand... it's not their job to develop the game locally. Involving them is useful to give us a watchable World Cup and games played at a decent standard. 

This idea that the nations using players representing their family roots haven't tried to develop homegrown talent is simply... wrong. They have tried and most often failed, alas. They failed because it's not easy, they're volounteers, money is tight, etc. 

I'm ok for the biggest picture and the long run. But involving heritage players takes nothing away from local development. In fact, it often helps it.

Another reply where you have spectacularly missed the point.

[Davo5]

5 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I don't think we have a choice and wasn't suggesting we just play Australia. 

It's that or NZ on repeat every autumn.

The other home nations will not be competitive in my lifetime. Doesn't mean efforts cannot be made to improve them - but they are unlikely to bear real tangible fruits for decades and something is needed in the meantime.

I'm sure using NRL players and flying another 15 odd down is possible for a game or two a year.

When the Oceania Cup starts next year there might be no countries who want to play us down under so what are we supposed to do,sit and watch it on TV ?

 

[Guest]

Just now, Davo5 said:

When the Oceania Cup starts next year there might be no countries who want to play us down under so what are we supposed to do,sit and watch it on TV ?

 

Have we asked?

And if they don't then yes - probably. The alternatives are all loss makers - other than England without NRL players in France every year for a game. That sounds brilliant.

[Davo5]

1 minute ago, Leonard said:

Have we asked?

And if they don't then yes - probably. The alternatives are all loss makers - other than England without NRL players in France every year for a game. That sounds brilliant.

Ok let’s Jack France & Wales off & sit at home,that’ll do wonders for the game in the NH,do we tell the other lesser NH nations not to bother too ?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Ok let’s Jack France & Wales off & sit at home,that’ll do wonders for the game in the NH,do we tell the other lesser NH nations not to bother too ?

Nice strawman.

I went to see Tunbridge Wells play football last week in front of 152 people. It was enjoyable for what it was. I don't think they need to be exposed to premier league sides every year as the best means to improve and I don't think that would do much for them either.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Leonard

[Davo5]

8 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Nice strawman.

I went to see Tunbridge Wells play football last week in front of 152 people. It was enjoyable for what it was. I don't think they need to be exposed to premier league sides every year as the best means to improve and I don't think that would do much for them either.

What a strange comparison.

Tunbridge actually play regular games France,Wales & England don’t.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

What a strange comparison.

Tunbridge actually play regular games France,Wales & England don’t.

I'll leave the thread to you.

Best of luck in your future endeavours.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Leonard

[Wellsy4HullFC]

You'd think they'd look at expanding the Oceania Cup into the Confederations Cup that was previously proposed. There's 6 teams already. England would be a great addition and bring in some crowds, and Lebanon's squad are pretty much already over there.

Problem solved.

[corkonian77]

The question  should  be " How do you get Super League  up to par with the Nrl?"

Simply  the advantages Australia  has are not replicated anywhere  else in the world. 

The complete absence  of Football/ Soccer as a significant  competitor. Europe's Elite athlete are drawn to other sports. 

A Polynesian  community. Who's elite athletes are genetically  suited to Rugby League. 

Polynesian  countries where a small amount  of money goes a long way. 6,000 $ US pays for a development  officer  as opposed  10 times that is required  in London.