FIFA WORLD CUP 2022

[hindle xiii]

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Edited December 11, 2022 by hindle xiii

[gingerjon]

Agree with pretty much every word. Especially the bit about how Bobby Robson had more lows than highs. People forget the contempt the press held him in for virtually his entire tenure.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/11/gareth-southgate-england-world-cup-qatar

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 hours ago, hw88 said:

Things go in cycles.

In the late 80s English teams were banned from Europe - thanks Liverpool - which gave the other major leagues a bit of a leg-up. (Remember up until the ban English teams had dominated the European club competitions from the mid-70s onwards.)

When the ban was lifted it only took a couple of seasons for Manchester United to win a European trophy again.

Since the advent of the Premier League English teams have been far less dominant despite picking up trophies at regular intervals. Of course this is partly due to it being harder to win - currently 6 teams are in with a shout of winning the Premier League (well at the start of the season anyway) - in Spain and Italy it is only 2 or 3 and in Germany and France 1!

England failed to qualify in 74, 78 and performed modestly in 1982.

This was all pre the ban and during the Liverpool-Forest-Spurs-Ipswich-Villa  domination of the European trophies.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref

[The Masked Poster]

2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

England failed to qualify in 74, 78 and performed modestly in 1982.

This was all pre the ban and during the Liverpool-Forest-Ipswich-Villa  domination of the European trophies.

 

I'm not sure I'd include Ipswich as a team who dominated in Europe. Certainly not in the same breath as Forest. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, The Masked Poster said:

I'm not sure I'd include Ipswich as a team who dominated in Europe. Certainly not in the same breath as Forest. 

They won the UEFA cup in that period which was arguably as hard to win as the European Cup at that time.

[hw88]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

England failed to qualify in 74, 78 and performed modestly in 1982.

This was all pre the ban and during the Liverpool-Forest-Ipswich-Villa  domination of the European trophies.

 

Quite true.

'Performing modestly' is a bit harsh on the '82 WC campaign though. They topped the group with 3 wins including beating France 3-1. Then instead of a nice easy 2nd phase group they got paired with Germany because of the disgraceful 'anschlus' match v Austria, and Spain who managed to lose at home to N Ireland! 2 0-0 draws saw them depart undefeated.

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, hw88 said:

Quite true.

'Performing modestly' is a bit harsh on the '82 WC campaign though. They topped the group with 3 wins including beating France 3-1. Then instead of a nice easy 2nd phase group they got paired with Germany because of the disgraceful 'anschlus' match v Austria, and Spain who managed to lose at home to N Ireland! 2 0-0 draws saw them depart undefeated.

It wasn’t a great period for the England team let’s face it and it all came when domestically England and Scotland were doing well in Europe almost every season (mid 70s to mid 80s).

 

[hw88]

3 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

They won the UEFA cup in that period which was arguably as hard to win as the European Cup at that time.

Probably harder as it contained more teams from the big nations and often contained the team that won the league that year.

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, hw88 said:

Probably harder as it contained more teams from the big nations and often contained the team that won the league that year.

Yep

[hw88]

2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

It wasn’t a great period for the England team let’s face it and it all came when domestically England and Scotland were doing well in Europe almost every season (mid 70s to mid 80s).

 

English teams were often packed with the best Scottish, Welsh and Irish players hence their success.

[Gerrumonside ref]

I’ve not really caught up with the general reaction to the defeat to France today, but I have a few thoughts of my own.

The biggest threat, Mbappe, was effectively neutralised by Walker for most of the game.  In fact the only times he really got involved was when Walker had gone on the overlap and Saka gave up possession.

In terms of chances created, territory and possession this was our best performance against a tier one nation in a knockout situation in the World Cup for some time.  France had chances too but I was satisfied enough that this wasn’t a siege by the World Champions.

Ultimately though this was a very good opportunity to advance leaving three teams in Morocco, Argentina and Croatia that I would have fancied our chances against in order to lift the World Cup.

[Gerrumonside ref]

13 minutes ago, hw88 said:

English teams were often packed with the best Scottish, Welsh and Irish players hence their success.

Yes, I was there at the time so remember all this well, although none of the actual national teams from those countries had particularly good teams in that period in comparison to Europe or South America’s best.

Must admit that our Celtic cousins have become even less competitive as there has been an influx of the best players in the world into England who have out competed the traditional player pools.

Guess Bale at Wales is the exception to this in the current period.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref

[Niels]

40 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

But the money is being generated so why shouldn't it go to the players?

It's a good question and to be honest I am not sure how to answer.

I liked the story of Hakim Ziyach, the Moroccan player, who has never taken any money for playing for his country. He gives it to team staff and poor families in Morocco. 

I think this is part of his Islamic culture where richer people are obligated to help the poor. But not everyone does, and there is no reason why European players can't follow suit.

But I would like to see more players do this. 

Do you think it could be encouraged?

 

 

 

[Niels]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

But the money is being generated so why shouldn't it go to the players?

Duplicate sorry

Edited December 11, 2022 by Niels

[Niels]

40 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

But the money is being generated so why shouldn't it go to the players?

It's a good question and to be honest I am not sure how to answer.

I liked the story of Hakim Ziyach, the Moroccan player, who has never taken any money for playing for his country. He gives it to team staff and poor families in Morocco. 

I think this is part of his Islamic culture where richer people are obligated to help the poor. But not everyone does, and there is no reason why European players can't follow suit.

I would like to see more players do this. 

Do you think it could be encouraged?

 

 

 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Niels said:

It's a good question and to be honest I am not sure how to answer.

I liked the story of Hakim Ziyach, the Moroccan player, who has never taken any money for playing for his country. He gives it to team staff and poor families in Morocco. 

I think this is part of his Islamic culture where richer people are obligated to help the poor. But not everyone does, and there is no reason why European players can't follow suit.

I would like to see more players do this. 

Do you think it could be encouraged?

 

 

 

None of the England players have taken their money for playing for England for decades, its been donated to charity for as long as I've been alive iirc.

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

30 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

England failed to qualify in 74, 78 and performed modestly in 1982.

This was all pre the ban and during the Liverpool-Forest-Spurs-Ipswich-Villa  domination of the European trophies.

 

England absolutely battered a so-called "inferior" Poland in 74, a Poland team that were unlucky not to make the final in 74 and ended up finishing 3rd, in 1978 they lost to Italy away but beat them at home and lost out on goal difference, I'm sure if they had qualified they would have been competetive.

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

30 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Quite true.

'Performing modestly' is a bit harsh on the '82 WC campaign though. They topped the group with 3 wins including beating France 3-1. Then instead of a nice easy 2nd phase group they got paired with Germany because of the disgraceful 'anschlus' match v Austria, and Spain who managed to lose at home to N Ireland! 2 0-0 draws saw them depart undefeated.

Yeah, and France finished 2nd and ended up with Austria and Northern Ireland.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

None of the England players have taken their money for playing for England for decades, its been donated to charity for as long as I've been alive iirc.

Yeah it's well known that England players have done this for years.

[Niels]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

None of the England players have taken their money for playing for England for decades, its been donated to charity for as long as I've been alive iirc.

Only their appearance fee, which they seem to consider negligible anyway according to this article. 

It goes to football grass routes and communities anyway. Not to ill children or Cancer Patients.

Ziyach gave £185,000 to a Cancer Charity in addition to his profits from the national team. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalworld.com/sport/football/england-players-paid-world-cup-2022-bonus-3921085%3famp

Edited December 11, 2022 by Niels

[Gerrumonside ref]

15 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

England absolutely battered a so-called "inferior" Poland in 74, a Poland team that were unlucky not to make the final in 74 and ended up finishing 3rd, in 1978 they lost to Italy away but beat them at home and lost out on goal difference, I'm sure if they had qualified they would have been competetive.

That seems a bit of a stretch to be honest - didn’t we fail to qualify for the European Championship too in 1972 and 1976?

In 1980 we failed to get out of the group and in 1984 we failed to qualify again.

That’s a lot of failure in the main national team competitions.

I can only really think of Keegan and Shilton as elite players of that time with Brooking maybe at a push.

The truth is that domestic success in European club competitions was mainly being driven by Scottish, Welsh and Irish players playing for the best English clubs of that time.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref

[Tommygilf]

33 minutes ago, Niels said:

Only their appearance fee, which they seem to consider negligible anyway according to this article. 

It goes to football grass routes and communities anyway. Not to ill children or Cancer Patients.

Ziyach gave £185,000 to a Cancer Charity in addition to his profits from the national team. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalworld.com/sport/football/england-players-paid-world-cup-2022-bonus-3921085%3famp

Good for him, Marcus Rashford raised funding and awareness for literally millions of kids getting school dinners in the UK (which in total amounted to far more than £185k). And every England player gives away their match fee which is at least £2,000 - which over the course of a standard year, take 2021 as an example, amounts to 19 x £2000 per player on just those match fees alone, and that is if they haven't increased since last I checked.

I don't see it as a willy measuring competition, but if people want it to be, there is no competition. 

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

25 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

That seems a bit of a stretch to be honest - didn’t we fail to qualify for the European Championship too in 1972 and 1976?

In 1980 we failed to get out of the group and in 1984 we failed to qualify again.

That’s a lot of failure in the main national team competitions.

I can only really think of Keegan and Shilton as elite players of that time with Brooking maybe at a push.

The truth is that domestic success in European club competitions was mainly being driven by Scottish, Welsh and Irish players playing for the best English clubs of that time.

 

 

Wasn't the 1972 and 76 Euro's only a 4 team tournament?

As for the 1980 Euro's , from memory, we drew with Belgium and had a controversial goal disallowed, lost to hosts Italy and beat Spain , the top team, which was Belgium went to the final, hardly a disaster.

1984 Euro's, wasn't Bobby Robson the manager? enough said.

And as for Shilton, he cost us in 1974, 1986 and 1990.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Good for him, Marcus Rashford raised funding and awareness for literally millions of kids getting school dinners in the UK (which in total amounted to far more than £185k). And every England player gives away their match fee which is at least £2,000 - which over the course of a standard year, take 2021 as an example, amounts to 19 x £2000 per player on just those match fees alone, and that is if they haven't increased since last I checked.

I don't see it as a willy measuring competition, but if people want it to be, there is no competition. 

In the NFL there is a highly prized Walter Payton award given to the NFL player with the most outstanding contribution to their community that season (which isn’t always measured in money but also time spent actually making a difference).

I would like to see the Premier League perhaps do something similar along the lines of a Marcus Rashford trophy.

The American media do a good job of highlighting the philanthropic activities of the NFL players and whatever people might think it has a powerful effect and sustains the ethos amongst many with the sport there.

[Niels]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Good for him, Marcus Rashford raised funding and awareness for literally millions of kids getting school dinners in the UK (which in total amounted to far more than £185k). And every England player gives away their match fee which is at least £2,000 - which over the course of a standard year, take 2021 as an example, amounts to 19 x £2000 per player on just those match fees alone, and that is if they haven't increased since last I checked.

I don't see it as a willy measuring competition, but if people want it to be, there is no competition. 

I understand but there is a difference between raising the money and giving away your own.