Tackle technique & rules, re: concussion...

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

The RFU have belatedly realised they’ve got the communication of this wrong, walking it back a bit. Say they’re going to involve the community game in defining what “waist and below” means. 

This reads to me like chest-height might end up being allowed, which I know some on here have advocated as a League solution, and I think might make more sense - make high tackles much less likely, but avoid too many badly-positioned “low defender” head injuries 

 

[Tonka]

So when they said “Waist and below”, people misunderstood, because in fact they meant something else, which they are going to decide on in conjunction with players, coaches etc.  Naughty everyone for taking “waist and below” to mean “waist and below”

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

34 minutes ago, Tonka said:

So when they said “Waist and below”, people misunderstood, because in fact they meant something else, which they are going to decide on in conjunction with players, coaches etc.  Naughty everyone for taking “waist and below” to mean “waist and below”

Hahaha yeah exactly 

Word on the street is that “waist” is about to be redefined as “the sternum” 

[bobbruce]

9 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Hahaha yeah exactly 

Word on the street is that “waist” is about to be redefined as “the sternum” 

When I’m reality for a lot of RU players it’s round the knees. 

[Oxford]

I see Phil Gould has joined in with "We're all doomed!" Prognostication for RL.

I won't put in most of why I think that might be the case but given the era he stems from this is not altogether surprising.

[EggFace]

5 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Suggest you read this from woke James Graham. I mean what does he know?

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/james-graham-says-rugby-league-must-be-made-safer-as-he-reveals-doctor-worries-over-brain-scan/#:~:text=James Graham has long campaigned,in some instances from themselves.

I agree with James but people are going to get a good knee in the head at certain times and will tackling become ankle low.

[EggFace]

13 hours ago, Oxford said:

My point exactly; the lessons and any subsequent protoclols, rules must be based on RL alone.

 

That's an illogical bit of argumnent there...... it has nothing to do with mythical wokeness and rule changes have alway signified the death of RL to some.

"The report of my death was an exaggeration."

I anyone wants to play a full Contact Sport like the 2 codes of Rugby and Gridiron alongside Ice Hockey, Boxing, MMA and various forms of Kick Boxing then they need to know the dangers be it for a hobby or a job...YES lets have a safer environment for the people taking but lets not diluted the sport.

[Oxford]

34 minutes ago, EggFace said:

I anyone wants to play a full Contact Sport like the 2 codes of Rugby and Gridiron alongside Ice Hockey, Boxing, MMA and various forms of Kick Boxing then they need to know the dangers be it for a hobby or a job...YES lets have a safer environment for the people taking but lets not diluted the sport.

Making it safer but being afraid of making changes ...er that makes sense.

I know, how about a health warning on the side like cigarettes and bleach

WARNING RL CAN DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH!

[dkw]

Not sure if it's already mentioned in the thread, but the majority of concussions are by the tackler, not the lad being tackled. So all this rule will accomplish is to lead to more tacklers being put in a dangerous situation as they all tackle in the same place.

Edited January 28, 2023 by dkw

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, dkw said:

Not sure if it's already mentioned in the thread, but the majority of concussions are by the tackler, not the lad being tackled. So all this rule will accomplish is to lead to more tacklers being put in a dangerous situation as they all tackle in the same place.

Yes, we mentioned it a page or two back.  In particular those sickening head clashes between defender's.  Probably on average the most severe HIA's.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Dunbar

[dkw]

15 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, we mentioned it a page or two back.  In particular those sickening head clashes between defender's.  Probably on average the most severe HIA's.

Cheers, I was chatting to 2 ex pros and both said they had never been concussed from high tackles, it was also poor positioning as a tackler, whether by poor technique or bad luck.

[EggFace]

5 hours ago, Oxford said:

Making it safer but being afraid of making changes ...er that makes sense.

I know, how about a health warning on the side like cigarettes and bleach

WARNING RL CAN DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH!

Before we start the health and safety of our historic sports maybe carp like these needs to be dealt with first.

 

[Oxford]

7 minutes ago, EggFace said:

Before we start the health and safety of our historic sports maybe carp like these needs to be dealt with first.

Looking at things at their worst in another sport is simply a distraction. Other sports historic or otherwise are irrelevant. RL has a duty of care and responsibility for TGG.

Failure is not an option if for no other reason than we want parents to involve and support our game knowing that their children will be as safe as we can possibly make them.

If we don't examine the uniqueness of our game over issues like the care of it's participants and the danger contained in our game because it's different from all the others we will have failed before we began.

[EggFace]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

Looking at things at their worst in another sport is simply a distraction. Other sports historic or otherwise are irrelevant. RL has a duty of care and responsibility for TGG.

Failure is not an option if for no other reason than we want parents to involve and support our game knowing that their children will be as safe as we can possibly make them.

If we don't examine the uniqueness of our game over issues like the care of it's participants and the danger contained in our game because it's different from all the others we will have failed before we began.

Talking to a lad in the gym about it and he works in Care Home for old people with dementia and the majority of the male and females have never played Rugby or headed a ball in their life.

Now you suddenly get words on Rugby Union sites on discussions about tackling and its now it's the terms

Sternum, Nipple, Hips and knees and I thought we got rid of the Crouch, Touch, Pause and Engage Garbage.

Warning to all don't go Sufing in Australia and South Africas as you might get attacked by a Great White and also don't going Skiing either plus stop driving your car.

Edited January 28, 2023 by EggFace

[Oxford]

16 hours ago, EggFace said:

Talking to a lad in the gym about it and he works in Care Home for old people with dementia and the majority of the male and females have never played Rugby or headed a ball in their life.

Without research into the lives of care home residents that is unhelpful and possibly misleading.

Looking at K&C is probably just as useless relying more on outward similarities than RL's unique pattern of collision.

This is much of what I meant by the sport chasing it's own tail.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Oxford

[Tom Moore]

On 21/01/2023 at 00:49, Odsal Outlaw said:

We could also view this as a huge opportunity for RL to expand. We could proactively push the contact nature of our sport and encourage the disillusioned RU community game over to League!

Agreed. As was identified earlier in the thread, it will be practically impossible to legally tackle anyone who picks and goes from a break down, unless there's going to be some body angle law to penalise attackers, which would be absolutely ludicrous. That won't be an issue in league. 

Agree on the comment on knees to the head too, the only concussions I ever got were from that and being stamped on. 

There's a drive in union to have the height change to be sternum and below, which seems much more sensible. If that doesn't come off and the rule is waist, I don't think I'll be watching a lot more union. 

[RP London]

17 hours ago, EggFace said:

 

Warning to all don't go Sufing in Australia and South Africas as you might get attacked by a Great White and also don't going Skiing either plus stop driving your car.

Taken out the nonsense argument of "these people have dementia and didn't play rugby" therefore it's not a big risk.. when the key is "increases the risk of.." which is not debated as its science..

The above quoted bit:

South africa and Australia have shark nets and patrols and early warnings so that people don't actively surf with the sharks.

Ski resorts now make you wear a helmet when going on many slopes.

Your car has many many safety features to minimise crashes. There is also road safety organisations and planning to make roads safer. And your car has loads of features that, if you have an accident, protect you and those in the car. 

I mean literally every one of your examples do what they can to mitigate the risks as much as possible, as should Rugby of both codes. Not eliminate but mitigate. Do as much as you can without taking away the essence of the sport. 

 

[Wakefield Ram]

17 hours ago, EggFace said:

Talking to a lad in the gym about it and he works in Care Home for old people with dementia and the majority of the male and females have never played Rugby or headed a ball in their life.

Now you suddenly get words on Rugby Union sites on discussions about tackling and its now it's the terms

Sternum, Nipple, Hips and knees and I thought we got rid of the Crouch, Touch, Pause and Engage Garbage.

Warning to all don't go Sufing in Australia and South Africas as you might get attacked by a Great White and also don't going Skiing either plus stop driving your car.

In South Africa alone, due to controlled scrum engagement laws, the incidence of catastrophic neck injuries has reduced from 3.5 a year to 0.5. That's 3 young men not paralysed for life every year. 

The proposed RU tackle law is likely to reduce 200 concussions a week in community down to 70-80.

Players are bigger, stronger and faster, so the number of bigger collisions has increased significantly since mid 90s when I finished playing.

If anyone this is "spoiling the game", they're probably not the ones actually playing it.

 

[EggFace]

6 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

In South Africa alone, due to controlled scrum engagement laws, the incidence of catastrophic neck injuries has reduced from 3.5 a year to 0.5. That's 3 young men not paralysed for life every year. 

The proposed RU tackle law is likely to reduce 200 concussions a week in community down to 70-80.

Players are bigger, stronger and faster, so the number of bigger collisions has increased significantly since mid 90s when I finished playing.

If anyone this is "spoiling the game", they're probably not the ones actually playing it.

 

Maybe players need more skill training and less gym work and scrums are ugly anyway.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

The proposed RU tackle law is likely to reduce 200 concussions a week in community down to 70-80.

 

Can you share the source for this analysis please, I would like to take a look.  Thanks.

[DI Keith Fowler]

11 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

The proposed RU tackle law is likely to reduce 200 concussions a week in community down to 70-80.

 

No, I'm sorry you're making a massive leap here. As I posted on the previous page one of the RFU cited studies showed that concussions remained constant but a reduction in tackle height shifted concussions from the attacker to the defender. I think the whole reason there's such uproar about the move is that the data isn't there to support it. 

[Wakefield Ram]

40 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

No, I'm sorry you're making a massive leap here. As I posted on the previous page one of the RFU cited studies showed that concussions remained constant but a reduction in tackle height shifted concussions from the attacker to the defender. I think the whole reason there's such uproar about the move is that the data isn't there to support it. 

Read  the research. If the law changes just changed the concussions from ball carriers to tacklers there'd be no point doing it would there?

The data is there and that's the basis for the law change.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Wakefield Ram

[Wakefield Ram]

56 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Can you share the source for this analysis please, I would like to take a look.  Thanks.

It's here.  

 https://www.bath.ac.uk/case-studies/reducing-injuries-in-rugby-union-through-global-changes-to-make-the-scrum-safer/

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

It's here.  

 https://www.bath.ac.uk/case-studies/reducing-injuries-in-rugby-union-through-global-changes-to-make-the-scrum-safer/

That article is about the scrum, I was referring to the tackle law reducing the concussions.

[Wakefield Ram]

They have already been posted if you back a page or two.