World Cup Finances

[Pulga]

I wouldn't put any weight on Grant's words. He once said he didn't realise that talking on a phone while driving was illegal to get out of a ticket. He's an ex-cop.

From cop to politician then on to the IRL. About as credible as big Nige.

[HawkMan]

Judging the success of the WC by studying the financial figures is for accountants and die hard RL fans.

The questions to ask are; 

Did the WC pique the interest of Joe Public?

Have we seen an increase in media interest in the game?

Have some or even occasional SL games become must - see events with tickets hard to come by?

Has the International game taken off to new heights catering for a new hunger to see more of it?

Are we expecting an increase in tv monies for new deals?

Answer these and we can work out if the WC was a success. The bean counters can excite themselves with rights fees and government grants minutiae. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by HawkMan

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Judging the success of the WC by studying the financial figures is for accountants and die hard RL fans.

The questions to ask are; 

Did the WC pique the interest of Joe Public?

Have we seen an increase in media interest in the game?

Have some or even occasional SL games become must - see events with tickets hard to come by?

Are we expecting an increase in tv monies for new deals?

Answer these and we can work out if the WC was a success. The bean counters can excite themselves with rights fees and government grants minutiae. 

For a sport that isn’t cash rich then the financial success of any tournament is important.

[HawkMan]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

For a sport that isn’t cash rich then the financial success of any tournament is important.

True, but if it doesn't lead to an increase in general popularity in the hearts and minds of the public  or increased media or TV money ,then then any profit is just for treading water.

Edited July 21, 2023 by HawkMan

[Tommygilf]

20 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Judging the success of the WC by studying the financial figures is for accountants and die hard RL fans.

The questions to ask are; 

Did the WC pique the interest of Joe Public?

Have we seen an increase in media interest in the game?

Have some or even occasional SL games become must - see events with tickets hard to come by?

Has the International game taken off to new heights catering for a new hunger to see more of it?

Are we expecting an increase in tv monies for new deals?

Answer these and we can work out if the WC was a success. The bean counters can excite themselves with rights fees and government grants minutiae. 

Given the answer to most if not all of those is "no", I think the hope is that at least the financials of the tournament worked.

[Gerrumonside ref]

10 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

True, but if it doesn't lead to an increase in general popularity in the hearts and minds of the public  or increased media or TV money ,then then any profit is just for treading water.

Not for our game sadly - every penny counts.

It’s hard to measure ‘general popularity in the hearts and minds of the public’ as you call it.  Difficult to quantify it without going into subjective judgements.

As for the TV deal, there are a number of other factors (not all within our control) that will account for that figure regardless of the impact of the World Cup.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Pulga said:

I wouldn't put any weight on Grant's words. He once said he didn't realise that talking on a phone while driving was illegal to get out of a ticket. He's an ex-cop.

From cop to politician then on to the IRL. About as credible as big Nige.

Like others before him Grant said all the right things when he was appointed but there has been zero improvement to the international game and if anything we have one backwards again.

[Toby Chopra]

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Judging the success of the WC by studying the financial figures is for accountants and die hard RL fans.

The questions to ask are; 

Did the WC pique the interest of Joe Public?

It piqued it at the start, but then a combination of mismatches, poor scheduling, geographical concentration and excessive pricing choked off any snowball effect.

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Have we seen an increase in media interest in the game?

During the tournament, yes, but then it largely reverted to type.

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Have some or even occasional SL games become must - see events with tickets hard to come by?

No. But more generally UK crowds do seem to have improved and as I postulated at the time, I think the WC did provide a boost in existing UK RL communities to help accelerate the 'return from COVID' effect.

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Has the International game taken off to new heights catering for a new hunger to see more of it?

As usual, we've not given ourselves the opportunity to find out. 

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Are we expecting an increase in tv monies for new deals?

If there is in the UK, it will be hard to say it's primarily a world cup effect, although it may play a small part in putting a floor under the rights. We'll find out very soon.

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Answer these and we can work out if the WC was a success. The bean counters can excite themselves with rights fees and government grants minutiae. 

Even if the answers to all the above is 'no', the rights fees and the grants are still a success. Several million has been pumped into UK RL community facilities and - we hope - there is several million for the IRL to promote RL around the world. None of that would have been there if we hadn't held the world cup, so they do definitely count as individual successes, even if it could have been so much better overall.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

It really was pure arrogance. It was me who raised the point that they were repricing areas (or cutting prices in reality) if you recall, and their response was that they were recategorising rather than lowering. Weasel words from start to finish. My seat was lowered from £75 to £30.

But even at that stage they still held firm as you say. They were still selling tickets at the HJ for £40 to stand up in the South Stand. They acknowledged that error in the week of the Tonga v Samoa game and lowered it, but that wasn't new news. 

And you had the double whammy of multiple games at the same grounds leaving game after game played as lacklustre 'events' with crowds that would be disappointing at SL and some Championship games. 

It was quite a bizarre series of events tbh and showed people completely out of their depth. 

Yeah I remember you spotted it. I get why they had to call it a “recategorisation” so they’d stay true to the promise they made to early buyers that they would not discount tickets in the same areas, so they had to move everyone, but they just didn’t go far enough.

The price mix was set at “delusional” to start with, and they just adjusted it to “ridiculous” instead.

[Gomersall]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

Like others before him Grant said all the right things when he was appointed but there has been zero improvement to the international game and if anything we have one backwards again.

That’s a bit harsh on Grant IMO. We all know the head of the IRL, whoever it is, is shackled by the NRL and whatever they want goes.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

That’s a bit harsh on Grant IMO. We all know the head of the IRL, whoever it is, is shackled by the NRL and whatever they want goes.

Its not harsh at all. He came in, blamed his predecessors with all his talk about Excel spreadsheets and lack of governance, talk which his predecessors also did and lets face it making out what a show you've inherited is rule 101 when starting a new role, and how he was going to improve things. However all we've got is not even more of the same, actually not even that because it is actually less with a delayed RLWC2021, a failed French World Cup bid for 2025 (after being pushed into it heavily by Grant and the Aussies), no host yet for 2025, an international game in tatters and an IRL who is even more deferent to the NRL.

When Grant took over I liked his interviews and what he had to say but if we are talking about results, which is the case on this thread with the likes of Hogan and Dutton so certainly should be for Grant too, it is all style over substance so far.

[OriginalMrC]

There was a lot to learn from the last world cup. For me it was a fantastic world cup. It was the biggest and best one yet however we won't see a world cup like that again. What it showed is that RL fans arent always happy to pay a premium for the product. It also showed that some heartland areas have little interest in international RL. World cups will continue no doubt but theyll be smaller and more focused. That's a bad thing in my opinion but sadly the reality of the situation 

[Damien]

17 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

There was a lot to learn from the last world cup. For me it was a fantastic world cup. It was the biggest and best one yet however we won't see a world cup like that again. What it showed is that RL fans arent always happy to pay a premium for the product. It also showed that some heartland areas have little interest in international RL. World cups will continue no doubt but theyll be smaller and more focused. That's a bad thing in my opinion but sadly the reality of the situation 

The trouble was the organisers wanted fans to pay a premium for the product whilst doing everything on the cheap, whether that was venue selection, entertainment or the marketing and promotion. Nothing about the World Cup said a premium event, bar the matches at Newcastle, Arsenal, Manchester and Elland Road, which were the best attended.

Everything else was small bog standard SL grounds with next to nothing happening. Fans aren't daft and aren't going to pay over double to sit in the same seat at Warrington or Saints. They certainly ain't going to do it 3 or 4 times. If you are doing the premium route and strategy you need to put on an event to justify that and certainly not do everything on the cheap. You also don't try and sell to the same fans over and over and over and over again.

I do think we went too high with the prices and the jump was too big but everything about it was contradictory and there was no joined up approach. The strategy just didn't make sense.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Damien

[Toby Chopra]

3 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

There was a lot to learn from the last world cup. For me it was a fantastic world cup. It was the biggest and best one yet however we won't see a world cup like that again. What it showed is that RL fans arent always happy to pay a premium for the product. It also showed that some heartland areas have little interest in international RL. World cups will continue no doubt but theyll be smaller and more focused. That's a bad thing in my opinion but sadly the reality of the situation 

It didn't show heartland areas had little interest, it showed that in the midst of an economic crisis they weren't prepared to pay way higher than normal ticket prices MULTIPLE times. 

Regarding the size of the event(s) I'd like to know what the surplus/subsidy of the women's and wheelchair events was before we say we can't afford to do that again. Most of the wheelchair sessions sold well, for example.

I'd prefer to cut the men's tournament down to 12 if we had to before we think about reducing elsewhere, although the aim should be for them to be stand alone anyway.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

The trouble was the organisers wanted fans to pay a premium for the product whilst doing everything on the cheap, whether that was venue selection, entertainment or the marketing and promotion. Nothing about the World Cup said a premium event, bar the matches at Newcastle, Arsenal, Manchester and Elland Road, which were the best attended.

Everything else was small bog standard SL grounds with next to nothing happening. Fans aren't daft and aren't going to pay over double to sit in the same seat at Warrington or Saints. They certainly ain't going to do it 3 or 4 times. If you are doing the premium route and strategy you need to put on an event to justify that and certainly not do everything on the cheap. You also don't try and sell to the same fans over and over and over and over again.

I do think we went too high with the prices and the jump was too big but everything about it was contradictory and there was no joined up approach. The strategy just didn't make sense.

Here's the categories for New Zealand versus... wait for it... Jamaica in Hull. Ignoring Cat A prices (which were surreal), from memory the "middle of the market" Cat B tickets were £45, and Cat C maybe £35. The idea that over 15,000 people in Hull (look how few Cat D tickets there are) would pay that much to watch a pretty meaningless game when they pay £20/week on their season ticket to watch Hull or Rovers is just absolute delusional madness. 

In the old 4P's of marketing - product, place, price, promotion - it doesn't matter how good the product is (people like rugby league), whether its in the right place (lots of people in Hull do), and how well you promote it... if you're asking 2 x the going rate for similar purchases you won't sell many unless there's some compelling reason why its better. NZ vs Jamaica doesn't come anywhere near fitting that description. This was replicated across the country in the group stages. Mind blowingly naive. 

 

 

[Tommygilf]

Too much of the tournament played in too small of an area with tickets priced too highly for events and an audience that didn't match up to those prices. 

The premium and well scheduled events were well attended, shock. 

To me it seemed the organisers never really had a grip on either the audience they were going for or the product they were selling. Indeed the two strategies seemed entirely at odds with one another; and what's worse is it seemed to ignore the best of what had worked previously.

The £40 to stand at Warrington was bad enough, but it was ridiculous when placed alongside 3 other games at the same venue, plus 3 at St Helens, 6 in Wigan, Leigh and Bolton (including 2 other Quarter finals) and of course the final in Manchester. There's not enough people in that area to pay those prices for those games - and there's equally not enough people willing to travel for those games either. That's before we consider how generally our best international attendances come either in Leeds or London. 

It just annoys me that these issues were so blindingly obvious to anyone I want to know why Dutton et al. either didn't see them, or thought they could overcome them. 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, HawkMan said:

True, but if it doesn't lead to an increase in general popularity in the hearts and minds of the public  or increased media or TV money ,then then any profit is just for treading water.

But you do know that the RLWC is the cash cow for IRL. It is literally their only money-making asset. It is how they fund development across the world (in principle).

[Dave T]

47 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Too much of the tournament played in too small of an area with tickets priced too highly for events and an audience that didn't match up to those prices. 

 

It was a massive issue. 

Within 18 miles of my home I could watch the following men's games:

NZ v Lebanon

Tonga v PNG

Wales v Cook Islands

England v France 

Lebanon v Ireland

Tonga v Wales

PNG v Cook Islands

Aus v Italy

Leb v Jamaica

Samoa v France

Eng v PNG

Tonga v Samoa

Final

It was too much tbh, and they clearly didn't sell tickets to non-RL fans, it was the same old people.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It was a massive issue. 

Within 18 miles of my home I could watch the following men's games:

NZ v Lebanon

Tonga v PNG

Wales v Cook Islands

England v France 

Lebanon v Ireland

Tonga v Wales

PNG v Cook Islands

Aus v Italy

Leb v Jamaica

Samoa v France

Eng v PNG

Tonga v Samoa

Final

It was too much tbh, and they clearly didn't sell tickets to non-RL fans, it was the same old people.

Quite, and that is before we consider that at least 2 of those games iirc were double headers with England Women, and the massively successful wheelchair final (which genuinely felt like the only game you couldn't get a ticket for).

It was far too saturated. If they wanted that strategy then they should have priced it accordingly, instead they went as if it was a Union world cup in the same places. Nor did they do what was anecdotally the hugely successful multi-game deals for each venue.

I don't buy the feigning ignorance to all these existing market experiences, and whilst cost of living was a consideration, it shouldn’t be overstated at all as an excuse either.

[Tommygilf]

Ireland vs Jamaica for instance was a clear example of just poor scheduling. It was the second game at Headingley in the space of 2 days, the previous being Australia's opener against Fiji. 

Ireland vs Jamaica had the potential to bring to the fore a lot of the cultural connections in the Leeds and wider West Yorkshire population, instead because of the timing it felt like the B side to the Aus game. Incidentally that premium fixture also felt like it was down a few thousand because that weekend's attendees seemed to be split across the two games - unevenly of course.

Its scheduling made little sense, as did all the group games being so heavily weighted towards the first round of fixtures which all pitted the ranked 1 v 2 and 3 v 4's against eachother. Thus virtually all the tight games were over and done with in 4 days with nearly 2 more weeks of group stage to go...

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

33 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It was a massive issue. 

Within 18 miles of my home I could watch the following men's games:

NZ v Lebanon

Tonga v PNG

Wales v Cook Islands

England v France 

Lebanon v Ireland

Tonga v Wales

PNG v Cook Islands

Aus v Italy

Leb v Jamaica

Samoa v France

Eng v PNG

Tonga v Samoa

Final

It was too much tbh, and they clearly didn't sell tickets to non-RL fans, it was the same old people.

Absolute madness. In my Hull example above it was the only game the city got, so didn't have that issue as well, but even being the only match played within an hours drive they only sold 4,000 tickets. In a city with 20,000 season ticket holders. Not 20,000 people interested in rugby league... no, 20,000 people who actually commit to a season ticket. The hardcore consumers. 

If you're running an organisation and that doesn't tell you your pricing and promotion went wrong then I don't know what will. 

[ATLANTISMAN]

3 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Yeah I remember you spotted it. I get why they had to call it a “recategorisation” so they’d stay true to the promise they made to early buyers that they would not discount tickets in the same areas, so they had to move everyone, but they just didn’t go far enough.

The price mix was set at “delusional” to start with, and they just adjusted it to “ridiculous” instead.

Totally spot on the ticketing was a disaster from start to finish as has the spin ,but hey ho everyone off to their next gig in the world of sports functionering from cycling to snail racing leaving others to clear up the mess.

 

What we need is people on the coal face 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Totally spot on the ticketing was a disaster from start to finish as has the spin ,but hey ho everyone off to their next gig in the world of sports functionering from cycling to snail racing leaving others to clear up the mess.

In fairness, as Grant said, there is no "mess". Everyone got paid, including the IRL, and nobody is in financial ruin.

It might have been very disappointing, and major profit and step forward targets were not met, but its not totally calamitous either.

[ATLANTISMAN]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

In fairness, as Grant said, there is no "mess". Everyone got paid, including the IRL, and nobody is in financial ruin.

It might have been very disappointing, and major profit and step forward targets were not met, but its not totally calamitous either.

Looking forward to Father Christmas on December 25th dropping off my presents hope he doesn't get stuck in the chimney:)))

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Looking forward to Father Christmas on December 25th dropping off my presents hope he doesn't get stuck in the chimney:)))

Its not forced to be an unparalelled success or a disaster. They aren't the only 2 possible outcomes of the world cup.

It wasn't the disaster of 2000, but it didn't grow as much on the success of 2013 as many, including myself, dearly hoped it would.