League 1 unsustainable?

[OnStrike]

Seems to be a lot of talk about League becoming unsustainable if/when the Skolars pull out. If this is the case, what do people see happening with it? 

The 9 remaining clubs have to be put somewhere and can't be written off.

Given that the Super League clubs don't look like they'll agree a 14 team SL, could we have a 12 team SL and the 23 other clubs split into two 12 and 11 team leagues maybe based on location (lessens travel, more derbies). Winner of those two play off for the promotion spot into SL?

That's just off the top of my head, probably loads wrong with it but something will have to be done as a 9 team League 1 is surely unsustainable.

[Wakefield Ram]

9 teams is unsustainable unless teams play each other 3 times. 

[Phil W]

Firstly hope Skolars can pull through whatever is going on there. 

A nine team competition isn't a solution. Don't think relegating three from The Championship would be favourable but would balance numbers.

The only new team I've heard show an interest but they're still a while off are Edinburgh. I may have missed others who might be looking at League One as an option. 

[OnStrike]

7 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

9 teams is unsustainable unless teams play each other 3 times. 

Definitely. You'd be asking Cornwall to go up to Workington twice in a season or vice versa for example 

[Gomersall]

9 minutes ago, OnStrike said:

Definitely. You'd be asking Cornwall to go up to Workington twice in a season or vice versa for example 

L1 teams currently do a ridiculous amount of travelling in comparison to the other two leagues barring one trip to France each in the regular season. This for the least funded division in the professional arm of the sport isn’t viable in the long term IMO. Regionalisation has to come at some point IMO.

[iffleyox]

1 minute ago, Gomersall said:

L1 teams currently do a ridiculous amount of travelling in comparison to the other two leagues barring one trip to France each in the regular season. This for the least funded division in the professional arm of the sport isn’t viable in the long term IMO. Regionalisation has to come at some point IMO.

Thing is, without Skolars ‘south’ is Midlands and Cornwall….. so you either arbitrarily make some M62 teams South as well or, dress it up how you like, you basically shoot those two clubs - whether that’s dressed up as an expansion League including Hemel and some currently non-existent clubs, or not.

 

 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

you basically shoot those two clubs - 

 

 

Well, the sport has previous for doing exactly that.

[Gomersall]

1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

Thing is, without Skolars ‘south’ is Midlands and Cornwall….. so you either arbitrarily make some M62 teams South as well or, dress it up how you like, you basically shoot those two clubs - whether that’s dressed up as an expansion League including Hemel and some currently non-existent clubs, or not.

Those two clubs are already doing more travelling than is necessary for teams with their level of funding IMO. How would regionalising shoot them in the foot? If anything the northern teams in the same division as MH and Cornwall are the disadvantaged ones.

[OnStrike]

Cornwall, London and Toulouse are going to do more travel than anyone else, that can't be avoided. If we had 2 divisions

1:

Fev, Bradford, Sheffield, Batley, Halifax, York, Keighley, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Doncaster 

2 

Swinton, Widnes, Oldham, Rochdale, Crusaders, Midlands, Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, Newcastle 

 

And then invite London, Toulouse and Cornwall to play in whichever one they would find easier.

Winners of 1 play winners of 2 to go into SL (if they meet criteria etc)

Again, loads probably wrong with it, but surely better than trying to keep a 9 team League 1 going

[iffleyox]

18 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

Those two clubs are already doing more travelling than is necessary for teams with their level of funding IMO. How would regionalising shoot them in the foot? If anything the northern teams in the same division as MH and Cornwall are the disadvantaged ones.

Do we have to rehearse again the incredible psychological barriers to league as a spectator sport for ‘expansion’ clubs?

Basically, gates go up when you’re playing ‘proper’ teams from the north, and through the floor when you’re playing other expansion clubs. 
 

Putting the semi pro sides into a regional southern league is not shooting them in the foot, it’s shooting them in the head.

[iffleyox]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Well, the sport has previous for doing exactly that.

See my avatar.

[OnStrike]

2 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

See my avatar.

Have Oxford carried on as an amateur club locally like Hemel or are they gone completely?

[iffleyox]

Just now, OnStrike said:

Have Oxford carried on as an amateur club locally like Hemel or are they gone completely?

Gone completely. Hemel already existed, Oxford were specifically a semi-pro side whose (sensible, experienced, wealthy) backers eventually threw the towel in because - AIUI amongst other things - the perpetually moving goal posts at the RFL made building a sustainable semi-pro club a nightmare. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by iffleyox

[iffleyox]

What a great intro to RL for me that was - games slow enough and intimate enough to really learn what was going on, and a crash course in RFL ineptitude, short termism, self serving, and utter inability to make a plan and stick to it for more than a season. 
 

But like the Murphys….
 

 

[crashmon]

Basically the only way is to merge League 1 into Champ.

1) expand SL to 14, and put the top 2 clubs based on results on the pitch into SL (assuming they have facilites), so they would be Fev and Tolouse.

2) The you would have 21 teams left, so how do you then structure this.

You could do something like have the first half of the season, everybody plays each other once, that would be 20 games. Then 3 groups of 7 where everybody plays everybody else in there group, so that would be 6 games == 26 games in the season.

Of course the SL will not expand, and club self interest will always prevail.  Soon we will be a M62 league only (plus Cats and Tolouse)

[iffleyox]

1 minute ago, crashmon said:

Basically the only way is to merge League 1 into Champ.

1) expand SL to 14, and put the top 2 clubs based on results on the pitch into SL (assuming they have facilites), so they would be Fev and Tolouse.

2) The you would have 21 teams left, so how do you then structure this.

You could do something like have the first half of the season, everybody plays each other once, that would be 20 games. Then 3 groups of 7 where everybody plays everybody else in there group, so that would be 6 games == 26 games in the season.

Of course the SL will not expand, and club self interest will always prevail.  Soon we will be a M62 league only (plus Cats and Tolouse)

Ding ding ding ladies and gentlemen the man has cracked it. Every paragraph…

[OnStrike]

6 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Basically the only way is to merge League 1 into Champ.

1) expand SL to 14, and put the top 2 clubs based on results on the pitch into SL (assuming they have facilites), so they would be Fev and Tolouse.

2) The you would have 21 teams left, so how do you then structure this.

You could do something like have the first half of the season, everybody plays each other once, that would be 20 games. Then 3 groups of 7 where everybody plays everybody else in there group, so that would be 6 games == 26 games in the season.

That sounds good...

[Toby Chopra]

15 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Basically the only way is to merge League 1 into Champ.

1) expand SL to 14, and put the top 2 clubs based on results on the pitch into SL (assuming they have facilites), so they would be Fev and Tolouse.

2) The you would have 21 teams left, so how do you then structure this.

You could do something like have the first half of the season, everybody plays each other once, that would be 20 games. Then 3 groups of 7 where everybody plays everybody else in there group, so that would be 6 games == 26 games in the season.

Of course the SL will not expand, and club self interest will always prevail.  Soon we will be a M62 league only (plus Cats and Tolouse)

Tail wagging the dog.

Expand SL to 14 if its the right thing to do for SL, a subject we've discussed at length elsewhere. 

But don't do it just because it makes it easier to juggle the numbers elsewhere. 

Short term solutions to fix individual problems, that then create unintended knock on problems down the line, is the rugby league way, but we've got to get out of that habit.

We need to take a view of the whole system rather than short term tinkering.

[OriginalMrC]

League 1 is a case of managed decline, a sink or swim approach. Decisions such as reducing numbers and funding have been designed to get us to this point with a handful of clubs potentially continuing in a new structure and the rest falling by the wayside. I can't see any future for non heartlands teams. They might hang in there for a couple of seasons but the dice is firmly stacked against them, even in the new IMG world. Their options are to become community clubs or relocate in the north. 

It's not all doom and gloom. Coventry Bears (and Hemel less so) have shown it's possible to transition back to being a community club. Mens, women's and over 150 juniors this season. Skolars, Crusaders and others should consider following this approach 

[sam4731]

1 hour ago, crashmon said:

Basically the only way is to merge League 1 into Champ.

1) expand SL to 14, and put the top 2 clubs based on results on the pitch into SL (assuming they have facilites), so they would be Fev and Tolouse.

2) The you would have 21 teams left, so how do you then structure this.

You could do something like have the first half of the season, everybody plays each other once, that would be 20 games. Then 3 groups of 7 where everybody plays everybody else in there group, so that would be 6 games == 26 games in the season.

Of course the SL will not expand, and club self interest will always prevail.  Soon we will be a M62 league only (plus Cats and Tolouse)

And protect Catalans and Toulouse from going down? Or were back to square 1 with travel.

[crashmon]

52 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Tail wagging the dog.

Expand SL to 14 if its the right thing to do for SL, a subject we've discussed at length elsewhere. 

But don't do it just because it makes it easier to juggle the numbers elsewhere. 

Short term solutions to fix individual problems, that then create unintended knock on problems down the line, is the rugby league way, but we've got to get out of that habit.

We need to take a view of the whole system rather than short term tinkering.

This thread was about the sustainability of League 1.  I gave an answer with that in context

As regarding RL in whole, in the NH is pretty much got no professional future,  SH no longer need a strong NH competition with the rise of Pacific Islands and the failure of the NH to expand out of the M62 has pretty much doomed it to being a small insignificant sport outside of australasia over the next 5-10 years.

Edited August 28, 2023 by crashmon

[daz39]

There's plenty of community clubs who could easily fit in to the level of league 1, just promote them.

Also i remember in the old 3 division times we had an 8 team second division.

[OriginalMrC]

11 minutes ago, daz39 said:

There's plenty of community clubs who could easily fit in to the level of league 1, just promote them.

Also i remember in the old 3 division times we had an 8 team second division.

What purpose would that serve? And would they want to? And would they have people willing to put in £100-200k a year to keep the club going? 

[gingerjon]

11 minutes ago, daz39 said:

[1] There's plenty of community clubs who could easily fit in to the level of league 1, just promote them.

[2] Also i remember in the old 3 division times we had an 8 team second division.

[1] And they want to be promoted?

[2] It lasted two seasons.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, daz39 said:

Also i remember in the old 3 division times we had an 8 team second division.

And that was absolutely shocking, it went away as soon as it came thank goodness.