League 1 unsustainable?

[Griff]

13 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

The 8,s i loved maybe the solution 

So did I. And it was great preparation for promotion.

[glossop saint]

31 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I agree. There definitely needs to be some kind of shake up below SL. Some clubs are barely more than amateur. Clubs like Hunslet, Doncaster, Workington, Whitehaven and Oldham need to be included in something better than the current League One 

Who would that leave in that lowest league? Just the expansion clubs (and Rochdale)? Add Newcastle to it next season? With even less funding? And the greatest travel distances and least available local play pool? 

It is a really hard task to make a dint in the M62 dominated sport, anyone who is trying needs support, not to be cast adrift.

[Hemel Rugby League]

It was the 8's that destroyed League 1. Oxford, Hemel, All Golds jumped ship because of them. West Wales followed shortly afterwards and the Midlands have spent the last two seasons based in Castleford. Only Skolars have attempted to stay true  to their roots and they now find themselves in their current situation.

How long before Cornwall (aka Hemel Stags) find themselves in the same situation

[glossop saint]

2 minutes ago, Hemel Rugby League said:

It was the 8's that destroyed League 1. Oxford, Hemel, All Golds jumped ship because of them. West Wales followed shortly afterwards and the Midlands have spent the last two seasons based in Castleford. Only Skolars have attempted to stay true  to their roots and they now find themselves in their current situation.

How long before Cornwall (aka Hemel Stags) find themselves in the same situation

I don't doubt you but could you explain how the 8s (a concept that directly affected SL and Championship) destroyed League 1? Was it funding? A change of number of teams? Thanks.

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I don't doubt you but could you explain how the 8s (a concept that directly affected SL and Championship) destroyed League 1? Was it funding? A change of number of teams? Thanks.

Oh those 8s. I was thinking about 1991-93.

[Griff]

15 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Who would that leave in that lowest league? Just the expansion clubs (and Rochdale)? 

In a regional conference, as I understand it.

Spreading the game with an emphasis on derby matches.

[Hemel Rugby League]

League 1 in 2013 and 2014 was hugely successful as a development semi-pro league(6 development clubs; 3 M62 clubs. Droping 6 Championship clubs, including Toulouse and Toronto, into it in 2015 made it uncompetitive  on the playing field so the expansion clubs decided to leave. Never to return.

A real lost opportunity for the sport⁷

[glossop saint]

Just now, Griff said:

In a regional conference, as I understand it.

Spreading the game with an emphasis on derby matches.

Do people from North Wales or Birmingham care about beating Skolars or Cornwall? Is there a bitter local rivalry there? Or do they want to see themselves taking on and occasionally winning against the more traditional clubs? I don't know. Perhaps we had best bow down to the knowledge of the many people who post on here who have experience of being involved with those clubs even if just as fans. Fans that we are now telling that they need to watch their team play a 'derby' with a team based hundreds of miles away.

[idrewthehaggis]

Well I feel I need to say the obvious.

It's about money and personal. And priorities.

League 1 needs investment to function.

Alot of that should be gathered by the clubs. Cue IMG.

But some should come from the wider RL community.

Priorities. What's best?

Monies for SL club's to travel to France or Cornwall to visit Yorkshire?

Development officers or CEO payoffs?

[Yorks Tim]

10 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Do people from North Wales or Birmingham care about beating Skolars or Cornwall? Is there a bitter local rivalry there? Or do they want to see themselves taking on and occasionally winning against the more traditional clubs? I don't know. Perhaps we had best bow down to the knowledge of the many people who post on here who have experience of being involved with those clubs even if just as fans. Fans that we are now telling that they need to watch their team play a 'derby' with a team based hundreds of miles away.

Yes and no. It's not about a local rivalry though, more about leaving the lower half of the table and joining the play-off contenders pack. In the olden days though there were local rivalries between Coventry Bears and Hemel Stags, Nottingham Outlaws, Leicester Storm. Coaching staff and players moving between the Midlands clubs fed this.   

As much as I would like those teams back in League 1, and I think those games would help with building crowds, the thrill of supporting a club like Cov Bears / Midlands Hurricanes is in bridging the gap and competing regularly with the likes of Oldham, Doncaster and (eventually) Dewsbury.

There has to be the ambition and potential of promotion to the Championship and Super League beyond that. 

[iffleyox]

42 minutes ago, Yorks Tim said:

Yes and no. It's not about a local rivalry though, more about leaving the lower half of the table and joining the play-off contenders pack. In the olden days though there were local rivalries between Coventry Bears and Hemel Stags, Nottingham Outlaws, Leicester Storm. Coaching staff and players moving between the Midlands clubs fed this.   

As much as I would like those teams back in League 1, and I think those games would help with building crowds, the thrill of supporting a club like Cov Bears / Midlands Hurricanes is in bridging the gap and competing regularly with the likes of Oldham, Doncaster and (eventually) Dewsbury.

There has to be the ambition and potential of promotion to the Championship and Super League beyond that. 

This.

In the 'olden days' there were also tiny gates, because beyond the players and their families, very few other people wanted to watch it. The crowds of paying punters, certainly at Oxford, and multiple hundreds rather than one man and his dog, were for playing 'proper' northern sides. Pub conversations were much easier to pull in people to watch Oxford v Oldham, than trying to explain that Oxford vs South Wales Scorpions was not a clash of 'basically pub teams then?' (genuine quote).

We wanted to watch competitive matches with 'real' clubs who had been doing this for a century - especially when we beat them. Even as a STH I had little interest when we were playing Scorpions or GAG (and I only lived over the road from the ground) - and there was a psychological feeling amongst some fans that playing the other expansion clubs was at best a chance to see how far you were progressing vs the other newcomers. As @Hemel Rugby Leaguesays, the League 1 we thought we were in was great, then (to the surprise presumably of no one involved in RL for longer than we had been - as fans I mean) the goalposts moved. My ideal would still be what L1 was that first season Oxford were in it - expansion clubs mixed with enough 'proper' northern sides to give the whole thing legitimacy and some sort of sense that it was a real league with some sort of continuity with the sport's past.

I accept it would be different for the players, but the whole point about that wave of expansion clubs into League 1 was they were supposed to have spectators rather than just be giving player opportunities. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by iffleyox

[tim2]

10 hours ago, Hemel Rugby League said:

League 1 in 2013 and 2014 was hugely successful as a development semi-pro league(6 development clubs; 3 M62 clubs. Droping 6 Championship clubs, including Toulouse and Toronto, into it in 2015 made it uncompetitive  on the playing field so the expansion clubs decided to leave. Never to return.

A real lost opportunity for the sport⁷

Making Toulouse and Toronto play in League One was ridiculous. 

[rugbylad09]

I have watched a lot of NCL over the last 4-5 years. All levels from prem to div 3, and I can honestly say that the top 4 teams in NCL prem (Hunslet, West Hull, Rochdale and Wath Brow) would beat the bottom 4/5 teams in league 1. 

Can’t be expecting people to pay £15-£20 a ticket when there’s similar quality for £3. 

I do agree with some regionalisation/conference split for L1 clubs. The league feels like a no man’s land. Teams aren’t good enough for the championship and can’t sustainably regress into NCL. 

I think the game needs to be built from NCL up, rather than SL down. SL and to an Extent the championship is sustainable now, and the IMG gradings will secure that.
The amount of late bloomers who develop between 18-21 who either missed out on, or dropped from, academy level and play in the NCL is astonishing. You see huge fluctuations with people playing semi pro and NCL and it’s a really untapped market. 

NCL acts as our national league, if you look at the football equivalent, and while that sport has considerably more money ect you wouldn’t believe it. I think giving the NCL more exposure and a clear pathway for players who want to make that semi pro step would lead to a more sustainable league 1 in time. 

[JM2010]

Could funding be used for SL clubs to ‘adopt’ a new/expansion club? Clubs like Skolars, Hemel, WWR, Coventry, Nottingham Outlaws, Manchester Rangers, Bristol All Golds etc could play in a development league below an expanded championship with the SL club providing players and running a Tier 3 Academy alongside local junior development work. 
This would ensure that each club has a competitive squad with a mix of locally developed players and fringe SL players. Any promising local players would have a pathway to the SL squad with the others becoming first team players at the expansion club. 
It could be ran on a 3 year cycle and then reviewed with any clubs that are able to stand alone, due to enough finances and local development, being allowed to join the Championship. 
The 3 year cycle would then start again with the remaining clubs and any new ones that might have applied

[Barley Mow]

What I don't understand is that there doesn't seem to have been any forward planning for next season.

This season has been poor for League 1 after West Wales dropped out. The clubs may say that it was too late at that point to change things for this year; fair enough. What about next year?

If we were to have three divisions of 12 for next year, the discussions about P&R should have been had as soon as WW withdrew. We could have said three relegated from the Championship and one up from League 1 this season - that would give us 12, 12, 12 next year. Instead nothing was changed so it's two up and two down and 12, 14, 10 again (assuming everyone makes the start line next year).

If we wanted to go with everyone below SL in the championship with two conferences next year - that needed discussing months ago.

As things stand, those discussions don't seem to have taken place - everyone has played the season expecting two up and two down and any changes to L1 for next year are therefore now limited to the ten teams adding in loop fixtures/playing each other three times.

It may not come as a surprise to people on here, but where is the forward planning/strategic thinking? Even some medium term planning?

[Derwent Parker]

51 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

What I don't understand is that there doesn't seem to have been any forward planning for next season.

This season has been poor for League 1 after West Wales dropped out. The clubs may say that it was too late at that point to change things for this year; fair enough. What about next year?

If we were to have three divisions of 12 for next year, the discussions about P&R should have been had as soon as WW withdrew. We could have said three relegated from the Championship and one up from League 1 this season - that would give us 12, 12, 12 next year. Instead nothing was changed so it's two up and two down and 12, 14, 10 again (assuming everyone makes the start line next year).

If we wanted to go with everyone below SL in the championship with two conferences next year - that needed discussing months ago.

As things stand, those discussions don't seem to have taken place - everyone has played the season expecting two up and two down and any changes to L1 for next year are therefore now limited to the ten teams adding in loop fixtures/playing each other three times.

It may not come as a surprise to people on here, but where is the forward planning/strategic thinking? Even some medium term planning?

As said earlier

The RFL do not care about anything below SL.

I dont even think they care enough to give L1 loop fixtures.

Its a disgrace, the RFL should look after the whole package Not just the chosen few.

There is plenty of forward planning/strategic thinking but only for SL

[Barley Mow]

2 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

As said earlier

The RFL do not care about anything below SL.

I dont even think they care enough to give L1 loop fixtures.

Its a disgrace, the RFL should look after the whole package Not just the chosen few.

There is plenty of forward planning/strategic thinking but only for SL

Some of the blame obviously has to go to those who run the RFL day to day, but the RFL is essentially a members club - Each of the League 1 clubs is a full member of the RFL and if the RFL CEO didn't come to a meeting with a plan for League 1, then the clubs should have come up with their own suggestion for 2024 early this year at put it to all the other members.

If we on an internet forum can see the issues and (as you suggest) those managing the governing body don't care, why aren't the clubs (who are most impacted) acting - or at least making some noise about it?

I may be being unfair - perhaps the clubs have tried and their suggestions have been knocked back. There just seems to lethargy about the situation from everyone.

[Derwent Parker]

5 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Some of the blame obviously has to go to those who run the RFL day to day, but the RFL is essentially a members club - Each of the League 1 clubs is a full member of the RFL and if the RFL CEO didn't come to a meeting with a plan for League 1, then the clubs should have come up with their own suggestion for 2024 early this year at put it to all the other members.

If we on an internet forum can see the issues and (as you suggest) those managing the governing body don't care, why aren't the clubs (who are most impacted) acting - or at least making some noise about it?

I may be being unfair - perhaps the clubs have tried and their suggestions have been knocked back. There just seems to lethargy about the situation from everyone.

Anything that's ever been mentioned officially or in rugby magazines etc[ meaning anything other than fan forums]

Has all/Only been about SL:-

Sky money,

IMG and Grading system 

Changing to 14 in SL,

2 X 10 SL,

Challenge cup group stages, etc

Absolutely NOTHING mentioned about L1

And nothing will be done.

IN FACT

The only way that Champ and L1 will get a decent set up will be as a side effect when they change SL - if they go to 2 x 10s

As that would leave 15/16 teams which would be a decent league and amount of fixtures.

 

 

[tim2]

7 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

 

If we on an internet forum can see the issues and (as you suggest) those managing the governing body don't care, why aren't the clubs (who are most impacted) acting - or at least making some noise about it?

I may be being unfair - perhaps the clubs have tried and their suggestions have been knocked back. There just seems to lethargy about the situation from everyone.

The clubs are notoriously self-interested and most have a shortage of people with the kind of vision needed for this difficult task.

Quote

If we were to have three divisions of 12 for next year

The Championship has been brilliant this season. 14 clubs gives a real variety of teams and, Newcastle aside, really competitive. Fev have had to work hard to be where they are. They haven't just turned up and won most weeks. I admit this is probably to the detriment of League One. Had Newcastle and Swinton (say) been in League One, it would probably have been equally competitive but 2 fewer home games might require some adjustment of budgets.

 

3 hours ago, rugbylad09 said:

Can’t be expecting people to pay £15-£20 a ticket when there’s similar quality for £3. 

Not in Birmingham or Cornwall, though. You may ask why people go to Oldham when Saddleworth, St Annes and Waterhead are available. Well, they probably go to both if they can. NCL games are really good. My son loved reffing it a few years ago. Less scrutiny from the MO dept, great atmospheres and easier to interact informally with the players. I think the Hurricanes' plan is to be the focus of development for the Midlands area and to attract people who watch the amateurs at Birmingham, Coventry, Leamington and Telford.

 

[Barley Mow]

5 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Anything that's ever been mentioned officially or in rugby magazines etc[ meaning anything other than fan forums]

Has all/Only been about SL:-

Sky money,

IMG and Grading system 

Changing to 14 in SL,

2 X 10 SL,

Challenge cup group stages, etc

Absolutely NOTHING mentioned about L1

And nothing will be done.

IN FACT

The only way that Champ and L1 will get a decent set up will be as a side effect when they change SL - if they go to 2 x 10s

As that would leave 15/16 teams which would be a decent league and amount of fixtures.

 

 

Just putting aside the IMG related stuff for now, the issue with L1 only having ten teams and them playing each other once is more immediate - they have made no plans for changing the champ or league 1 and if they are waiting for other plans to come on-line, the problems with an undersized division continue into next season and beyond.

- RFL management should have seen the issue as soon as West Wales withdrew and come up with a solution for 2024 straight away (if the 2023 season was too close).

- If that was not done, the clubs should have come up with their own proposal to discuss with the RFL management and other members (again early in 2023). If at that stage they were told sod off, we're not bothered, then there is reason to put the blame solely onto the RFL.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

As said earlier

The RFL do not care about anything below SL.

I dont even think they care enough to give L1 loop fixtures.

RFL don't make these decisions as some sort of dictatorship.

The clubs decide for themselves.

[glossop saint]

3 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Could funding be used for SL clubs to ‘adopt’ a new/expansion club? Clubs like Skolars, Hemel, WWR, Coventry, Nottingham Outlaws, Manchester Rangers, Bristol All Golds etc could play in a development league below an expanded championship with the SL club providing players and running a Tier 3 Academy alongside local junior development work. 
This would ensure that each club has a competitive squad with a mix of locally developed players and fringe SL players. Any promising local players would have a pathway to the SL squad with the others becoming first team players at the expansion club. 
It could be ran on a 3 year cycle and then reviewed with any clubs that are able to stand alone, due to enough finances and local development, being allowed to join the Championship. 
The 3 year cycle would then start again with the remaining clubs and any new ones that might have applied

I'm not sure about a development league as just the of it potentially belittles participation in it but I like the idea of partnerships between SL and expansion areas. Sharing knowledge, community strategy, pathways etc. I think it has occasionally happened in the past, maybe with Wigan. However it once again requires financial input with only a chance of success and it would be difficult to get SL clubs to commit. Maybe something IMG could look at in gradings. Then again they seem against expansion as well so unlikely.

[rugbylad09]

1 hour ago, tim2 said:

 

Not in Birmingham or Cornwall, though. You may ask why people go to Oldham when Saddleworth, St Annes and Waterhead are available. Well, they probably go to both if they can. NCL games are really good. My son loved reffing it a few years ago. Less scrutiny from the MO dept, great atmospheres and easier to interact informally with the players. I think the Hurricanes' plan is to be the focus of development for the Midlands area and to attract people who watch the amateurs at Birmingham, Coventry, Leamington and Telford.

 

Well people may do both, but during the summer I’d say there’s a low chance masses of people are spending (inc food ect) upwards of £30+ and taking up their weekend of amateur/low semi pro rugby. If I had to choose personally I’m choosing NCL every time. Maybe the 3pm Sunday kick offs for L1 don’t help with that either. I think the midlands do have something good going but will take a few years to see the impact, they’re one of the teams I’d back the top NCL teams to beat currently. maybe the same could be said for Cornwall but it’s early days, hopefully it’s not another west wales 

If I was the RFL I’d be having a major marketing focus on Liverpool and Birmingham. 2 massive cities not too far from the current heartlands and well into their sport

Edited August 30, 2023 by rugbylad09

[EggFace]

3 hours ago, rugbylad09 said:

Well people may do both, but during the summer I’d say there’s a low chance masses of people are spending (inc food ect) upwards of £30+ and taking up their weekend of amateur/low semi pro rugby. If I had to choose personally I’m choosing NCL every time. Maybe the 3pm Sunday kick offs for L1 don’t help with that either. I think the midlands do have something good going but will take a few years to see the impact, they’re one of the teams I’d back the top NCL teams to beat currently. maybe the same could be said for Cornwall but it’s early days, hopefully it’s not another west wales 

If I was the RFL I’d be having a major marketing focus on Liverpool and Birmingham. 2 massive cities not too far from the current heartlands and well into their sport

I think it's stupid that the amateur/NCL game is played in the summer it should be played Autumm to Spring and let the semi-pro/pro play in the summer.I remember Whitley Bay Barbarians female team leaflet posted in my letterbox and they had training (or was game time) on a Sunday at 1pm at the same time as Thunders games at Kingston Park.

Must suck to choosing to play or watch the game you love in area that is struggling for crowds and interest.

Edited August 30, 2023 by EggFace

[ATLANTISMAN]

Going back to the 8,s IMHO it was great London Broncos (If they finished in the top 4) got to play matches v SL sides it was as good as being in SL.

SL 12 teams 

Championship 12 teams 

League 1 12 teams 

Easy and would keep everyone happy 

 

P