Sat 28th Oct: International: England v Tonga KO 14:30 @ Huddersfield (BBC)

[meast]

8 hours ago, WN83 said:

I’d take the Samoa series on the road without a doubt. Too many heartlands fans know series against Tonga or Samoa are a ‘make do’ option because the Aussies and Kiwis can’t be bothered coming over. That wouldn’t really be an issue in London, Bristol, Newcastle etc. 

If the Samoa series is confirmed , I’d look at having a game in London, a game in the heartlands and then a game somewhere like Newcastle, Bristol, Midlands area etc. I’d probably go the Brentford stadium, Headingley and then somewhere like Leicester (either the Union ground or the King Power) as venues for the three games. I just can’t see that games at Brentford or Leicester would draw less than these first two Tonga games. 

Exactly my points.

If we did have to have a test match in the heartlands I do think Headingley would be the best choice, especially if they look at targeting students and corporates and a choice of sitting or standing.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

14 hours ago, meast said:

No games in the heartlands no, maybe North East?

The north isn't a hotbed of international RL, this have been proven over the last 2 years, it might be where the majority of professional clubs are based but there isn't any desire to support the  international game, time to move it around. 

If the World Cup and the last 2 weeks haven't proven that to a few people, then nothing ever will. But typically the RFL will use a decent crowd at Leeds to paper over the cracks in their strategy... when a "decent crowd in Leeds" used to be 35,000 in Elland Road as well. 

[redjonn]

17 hours ago, Damien said:

I've not seen anyone suggest any more than 1 international in London. Almost every suggestion has been following the London, North West and West Yorkshire formula.

3 internationals within 60 miles of each other is the very opposite of having internationals easily accessible for all across the country.

no one did... Given we had x3 up North and poor attendance across the three I was just suggesting even if we put all x3 games in London attendance would have be impacted.  I was not suggesting all x3 in London.

I was more commenting on the suggestion of all x3 games away from the North.

 

[redjonn]

15 hours ago, meast said:

No games in the heartlands no, maybe North East?

The north isn't a hotbed of international RL, this have been proven over the last 2 years, it might be where the majority of professional clubs are based but there isn't any desire to support the  international game, time to move it around. 

we disagree, the problem was choice of all x3 in the North plus two very close together. In addition the advertising/marheting was naff... don't think many outside of RL fans were aware of RL internationals being played and easily accessible locally.

[Tommygilf]

41 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

If the World Cup and the last 2 weeks haven't proven that to a few people, then nothing ever will. But typically the RFL will use a decent crowd at Leeds to paper over the cracks in their strategy... when a "decent crowd in Leeds" used to be 35,000 in Elland Road as well. 

Its very possible that this series entire aggregate attendance could nearly fit in Elland Road come next week. Then if you discount the multiple match goers...

Just like the RLWC, the organisation of this series was based on a false premise that going to heartland venues is the "safe option".

That repeatedly being proven wrong time and time again yet the RFL not changing is like banging one's head on a brick wall!

[redjonn]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its very possible that this series entire aggregate attendance could nearly fit in Elland Road come next week. Then if you discount the multiple match goers...

Just like the RLWC, the organisation of this series was based on a false premise that going to heartland venues is the "safe option".

That repeatedly being proven wrong time and time again yet the RFL not changing is like banging one's head on a brick wall!

I agree at least one game could have been played outside heartlands - although who knows the attendance as we can of course speculate it would have been in excess of 40k and could not be disapproved.

Lets be honest Tonga is hardly a top draw without a decent attempt at marketing, even for RL fans. Even worse for non RL fans we should have tapped into. 

Having said that I was surprised St Helens venue wasn't full given the number of fans with in very short distance in area's like, Warrington, Widnes, Wigan, Leigh besides St Helens itself plus other area's.   

I have been in full/nearly full crowds for internationals in the heartland, admittedly in World Cups or playing Australia.   So I don't think as some suggest their isn't an appetite for internationals up here.

I thought in the last world cup the government monies was based upon the tournament being mainly in the North.  So I think the RLWC should have done much better but how many games away form  up here they had hands tied.

We can all conjecture as to why poor attendance but we really need a strong marketing organisation to identify and the correct the reasons for lack of comparative interest. 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its very possible that this series entire aggregate attendance could nearly fit in Elland Road come next week. Then if you discount the multiple match goers...

Just like the RLWC, the organisation of this series was based on a false premise that going to heartland venues is the "safe option".

That repeatedly being proven wrong time and time again yet the RFL not changing is like banging one's head on a brick wall!

They also see it as "cost effective" to keep stadium-hire money in the game. Rather than try and sell 25,000 or even 30,000 tickets in London and more than recover the overheads involved. No ambition, and even when they do still retain some ambition, no desire or ability to execute the plan required to succeed. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I agree at least one game could have been played outside heartlands - although who knows the attendance as we can of course speculate it would have been in excess of 40k and could not be disapproved.

Lets be honest Tonga is hardly a top draw without a decent attempt at marketing, even for RL fans. Even worse for non RL fans we should have tapped into. 

Having said that I was surprised St Helens venue wasn't full given the number of fans with in very short distance in area's like, Warrington, Widnes, Wigan, Leigh besides St Helens itself plus other area's.   

I have been in full/nearly full crowds for internationals in the heartland, admittedly in World Cups or playing Australia.   So I don't think as some suggest their isn't an appetite for internationals up here.

I thought in the last world cup the government monies was based upon the tournament being mainly in the North.  So I think the RLWC should have done much better but how many games away form  up here they had hands tied.

We can all conjecture as to why poor attendance but we really need a strong marketing organisation to identify and the correct the reasons for lack of comparative interest. 

 

I think less people will travel to St Helens or Huddersfield frankly. The events themselves aren't attractive, and then the locations are hardly box office either (I'm being kind). They are uber local attendee dependent, St Helens especially imo.

There is an appetite, but the RFL either overestimates this or just over-saturates it. Tonga are especially a draw for RL fans I'd argue, but that alone isn't enough (which clearly the RFL thought it would be).

The RLWC government funding said it had to have 80% of its games in the "Northern Powerhouse" - that includes North Wales. We reduced that by not including the latter in any form, and even then decided to have over 90% of our matches confined to that region. Surely the idea should have been to push that limit to the extreme rather than going over and above to host matches in that area?

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

They also see it as "cost effective" to keep stadium-hire money in the game. Rather than try and sell 25,000 or even 30,000 tickets in London and more than recover the overheads involved. No ambition, and even when they do still retain some ambition, no desire or ability to execute the plan required to succeed. 

I genuinely think the attitude at the RFL is so self destructive its unreal. Anyone could see that the Huddersfield would be impacted, if nothing else, by having a match in a mostly more modern venue in a more attractive city close by the following week. Yet they still persisted with it and presumably think its a good idea!

[RigbyLuger]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The RLWC government funding said it had to have 80% of its games in the "Northern Powerhouse" - that includes North Wales. We reduced that by not including the latter in any form, and even then decided to have over 90% of our matches confined to that region. Surely the idea should have been to push that limit to the extreme rather than going over and above to host matches in that area?

Did anywhere in North Wales enter the bidding process?

[meast]

58 minutes ago, redjonn said:

we disagree, the problem was choice of all x3 in the North plus two very close together. In addition the advertising/marheting was naff... don't think many outside of RL fans were aware of RL internationals being played and easily accessible locally.

But the fact that RL fans in the so called heartlands were aware and still couldn't be bothered attending, nor could they be bothered attending the France game in Warrington or the majority of world cup games last year shows that there isn't the appetite to support the national team in the northern heartlands.

 

[meast]

38 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I agree at least one game could have been played outside heartlands - although who knows the attendance as we can of course speculate it would have been in excess of 40k and could not be disapproved.

Lets be honest Tonga is hardly a top draw without a decent attempt at marketing, even for RL fans. Even worse for non RL fans we should have tapped into. 

Having said that I was surprised St Helens venue wasn't full given the number of fans with in very short distance in area's like, Warrington, Widnes, Wigan, Leigh besides St Helens itself plus other area's.   

I have been in full/nearly full crowds for internationals in the heartland, admittedly in World Cups or playing Australia.   So I don't think as some suggest their isn't an appetite for internationals up here.

I thought in the last world cup the government monies was based upon the tournament being mainly in the North.  So I think the RLWC should have done much better but how many games away form  up here they had hands tied.

We can all conjecture as to why poor attendance but we really need a strong marketing organisation to identify and the correct the reasons for lack of comparative interest. 

 

I think this is also an issue.

Rugby union, football and cricket fans don't worry about the opposition, they go and watch the national team regardless of opponent.

Although it's not aimed at you, the national team has to be attractive and it has to be made to feel like an event, the above sports sell out England games due to the F.O.M.O that is prevalent these days, rugby league can't sell out internationals because the fans don't think the opposition are a big enough draw.

The draw should be England not the opposition.

[Tommygilf]

42 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Did anywhere in North Wales enter the bidding process?

Oh the bidding process that worked really well and delivered a hugely successful tournament?

There was scope to play less games in the North of England than we did. 

[RigbyLuger]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Oh the bidding process that worked really well and delivered a hugely successful tournament?

There was scope to play less games in the North of England than we did. 

But if nowhere in North Wales bid to host a game, as per the process, you can't just plonk a game there! 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

But if nowhere in North Wales bid to host a game, as per the process, you can't just plonk a game there! 

Did Arsenal/London bid for a game? Genuinely?

Or did the RLWC sound out London venues?

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tommygilf

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, redjonn said:

Lets be honest Tonga is hardly a top draw without a decent attempt at marketing, even for RL fans. Even worse for non RL fans we should have tapped into.

The draw for non-RL fans is England. People will happily go and watch their national team. I had friends who had never shown any interest in RL before who went to see England annihilate Greece in the WC and loved it. I appreciated people will say that's due to the draw of the WC, but I also had loads of non-RL fan friends and workmates go to watch England v Scotland in the 4 Nations at Coventry because it was local (they weren't the least bit interested in the Aus v NZ element of the double header) and they also loved it. it's completely within the RFL's power to create another high profile competition and market it accordingly. Non-RL fans won't bat an eyelid whether it's France, Tonga, Samoa, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Jamaica, Lebanon or whoever, because they're none the wiser. They'd be attracted by the opportunity to go and watch England. The problem now is that the RFL are so risk averse, they won't put any effort or resources into anything like this to try and attract a new audience, and what we're more likely to see next year (if we're lucky) is England v Samoa at places like Warrington and Doncaster.

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The draw for non-RL fans is England. People will happily go and watch their national team. I had friends who had never shown any interest in RL before who went to see England annihilate Greece in the WC and loved it. I appreciated people will say that's due to the draw of the WC, but I also had loads of non-RL fan friends and workmates go to watch England v Scotland in the 4 Nations at Coventry because it was local (they weren't the least bit interested in the Aus v NZ element of the double header) and they also loved it. it's completely within the RFL's power to create another high profile competition and market it accordingly. Non-RL fans won't bat an eyelid whether it's France, Tonga, Samoa, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Jamaica, Lebanon or whoever, because they're none the wiser. They'd be attracted by the opportunity to go and watch England. The problem now is that the RFL are so risk averse, they won't put any effort or resources into anything like this to try and attract a new audience, and what we're more likely to see next year (if we're lucky) is England v Samoa at places like Warrington and Doncaster.

I get what you say but did all those venues sell out even during the RLWC by those non RL fans that would just want to watch England RL play. Yes their was a relatively small number that went and subsequent loved it but my memory doesn't tell me the stadiums were full, so not enough of them. How many of them continue that interest enough to attend RL games often.

Most of my colleagues and friends are fully aware of the RU world cup that has been running for what seems about 2months.   Their whole Rugby aware focus was on that and were somewhat surprised that RL were also playing an international. That has totally drawn all the interest in rugby of either code for my non RL fan acquaintances.  I am sure that if England RU played an international up here it would be packed out/full.   

It just seems to me that some are so dismissive of heartland fans interest in watching England RL and not considering other potential reasons, like having all x3 games played close to each other. etc etc.

I can ponder as much as the next person on why/what but  the problem for the RFL/RL is their lack of investment in a strong marketing organisation.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

8 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I get what you say but did all those venues sell out even during the RLWC by those non RL fans that would just want to watch England RL play.

No they didn't. But in the same breath, how much effort was put in to trying to attract a new audience?

9 minutes ago, redjonn said:

How many of them continue that interest enough to attend RL games often.

None. Because they don't have local games that they can attend. Speaking personally, my interest in RL came about solely because of internationals. It was only after watching GB that I started to take an interest in the club game. I think it's unrealistic to expect people to become ardent RL fans after they've been exposed to 1 live England game.

11 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Most of my colleagues and friends are fully aware of the RU world cup that has been running for what seems about 2months.   Their whole Rugby aware focus was on that and were somewhat surprised that RL were also playing an international. That has totally drawn all the interest in rugby of either code for my non RL fan acquaintances.  I am sure that if England RU played an international up here it would be packed out/full.   

Yes this is a big challenge. I'm not sure how you can get round that. I would have liked to see a mid-season international competition, but I appreciate that is never likely to happen.

12 minutes ago, redjonn said:

It just seems to me that some are so dismissive of heartland fans interest in watching England RL and not considering other potential reasons, like having all x3 games played close to each other. etc etc.

From what I've read on here, I don't think they are. Most people have bemoaned the proximity of the chosen venues.

17 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I can ponder as much as the next person on why/what but  the problem for the RFL/RL is their lack of investment in a strong marketing organisation.

Lack of investment in marketing along with a lack of vision, confidence and bravery.

[Phil]

I came away from the game massively unimpressed particularly with the second half BUT a couple came up to us in a pub later, they’d been, they’d never been to an RL match before, what a spectacle they said, the athleticism, the passion, they’ll definitely be at Headingley and will continue to support the game.

They were about mid twenties, both IT professionals, from Kent but now based in Manchester.

We pointed out the clubs around the Manchester area to them, they said they’d definitely go to club games too.

My point? Let’s not be hasty to put ourselves and our game down, do we get jaded about mistakes in our constant search for perfection? 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

22 minutes ago, Phil said:

I came away from the game massively unimpressed particularly with the second half BUT a couple came up to us in a pub later, they’d been, they’d never been to an RL match before, what a spectacle they said, the athleticism, the passion, they’ll definitely be at Headingley and will continue to support the game.

They were about mid twenties, both IT professionals, from Kent but now based in Manchester.

We pointed out the clubs around the Manchester area to them, they said they’d definitely go to club games too.

My point? Let’s not be hasty to put ourselves and our game down, do we get jaded about mistakes in our constant search for perfection? 

Conditions looked pretty poor on TV which wouldn't help but it was close enough to maintain interest. I thought England handled what looked to be a pretty big Tongan side well.  Where national sides are concerned, with many people the only thing that matters is winning.