The true sleeping giants of the game

[Morris Wanchuk]

22 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Really!!!

Having had 25 years at the top table, with the same Sky money as Saint, Wigan, Wire and Leeds.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

He spoke about average gates of 8000+ which we managed in 2012 so it’s clearly achievable. You thru Saints etc into the mix, early days at Trin but hope for the future. 

[Morris Wanchuk]

33 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Try most Cas and Wakey fans booing Marching on Together at Headingley on a Friday then proudly and without irony saying "All Leeds Aren't We" for LUFC the following day

Beat me to it mate, speaking as a Trinity supporting LUFC fan. It also makes my blood boil to hear marching on together at Headingley! 

[RL Sutton Coldfield]

Lot of Wigan athletic fans I follow on Twitter go for the saints 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Morris Wanchuk said:

Beat me to it mate, speaking as a Trinity supporting LUFC fan. It also makes my blood boil to hear marching on together at Headingley! 

It amuses and annoys me in equal measure to hear people go on about "dirty Leeds" and "Leeds ####" one night for the rugby then proudly claim to be Leeds through and through when it comes to LUFC  

[Morris Wanchuk]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

It amuses and annoys me in equal measure to hear people go on about "dirty Leeds" and "Leeds ####" one night for the rugby then proudly claim to be Leeds through and through when it comes to LUFC  

I stand guilty as charged bud

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Morris Wanchuk said:

I stand guilty as charged bud

What can I say!

[bigbaldnmad]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

That is not strictly true.

The RFL decide who is allowed to run Category A/1 academies. That is, the purely rugby based academies that take players from the junior clubs to scholarship programmes and eventually pro level contracts. When they do this, they limit the numbers; to protect both the quality of the elite academy league, and to prevent the collapse of the amateur leagues by having all their players signed away to "pro" academies. The RFL know that most academy kids don't make it anyway, and there isn't enough money in the game for most prospects to have a future in it, so to limit the spaces available is a sensible compromise.

The RFL as I understand it are much more amenable and open to any club running a Category 3/C academy. That is, an academy connected usually to a local college which plays against other similar academies but also has academic/technical qualifications built into the offering. Plenty of clubs without Cat 1 academies, and even some with them, run these teams too. 

They are not the same though, are they.

There are lots of pros and cons around academies, and you quite rightly point out the impacts on the community game. But one of the big problem with how academies are run is that very few of the ones that don't make the grade, who feel rejected, drift away from the game. Only a small proportion return back to the community game and few filter down into Championship / League one.

But it is surely unfair, to clubs not selected to run academies, to have to 'buy in' players. 

So perhaps it is time that academies were taken out of the hands of the clubs and regionalised, allowing clubs from within that region to be able to sign players from that academy.  I'm sure a Cumbria academy would do a lot for the 3 Cumbrian clubs.

It does no good for teams like Halifax, who see youngsters from local clubs go to academies miles away. A perfect example being Ryley Dean, in Warrington's academy yet signed from Siddal, a local Halifax club.

 

[bigbaldnmad]

4 hours ago, dboy said:

You are aware that the RFL decision on which clubs run academies is based entirely on the business and sustainability plans that the CLUBS submit in their applications to run an academy??

###### clubs can't run academies.

So Bradford, London and Newcastle were allowed to run one last year?

I fully understand Newcastle and London, even though that blows your well run arguement out of the water, but Bradford have had well documented financial issues but still allowed to run an academy throughout the 10 years they have been in the Championship.

The academy system needs to change, maybe regionalised, but needs to allow Championship / League one clubs to access some of the talent that is currently rejected and lost.

[bigbaldnmad]

1 hour ago, Morris Wanchuk said:

He spoke about average gates of 8000+ which we managed in 2012 so it’s clearly achievable. You thru Saints etc into the mix, early days at Trin but hope for the future. 

I was born in Fev, but have lived in Wakefield since 1975, a lot of mates support / follow Wakefield. 

I hope you have success with this new guy, and you become a big club, but the sleeping giant bit seems to intimate that you were once a big club and will be again. Which is what I don't agree with.

[dboy]

15 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

So Bradford, London and Newcastle were allowed to run one last year?

I fully understand Newcastle and London, even though that blows your well run arguement out of the water, but Bradford have had well documented financial issues but still allowed to run an academy throughout the 10 years they have been in the Championship.

The academy system needs to change, maybe regionalised, but needs to allow Championship / League one clubs to access some of the talent that is currently rejected and lost.

I haven't made an argument, I've stated a fact.

The RFL award academy status on the merits of the club's application.

 

[moorside roughyed]

8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Try most Cas and Wakey fans booing Marching on Together at Headingley on a Friday then proudly and without irony saying "All Leeds Aren't We" for LUFC the following day

I honestly don't follow anything soccer related so I wouldn't know. But yes that's odd too. 

[Dovster]

12 hours ago, moorside roughyed said:

Supporting Bradford in soccer. Hating Bradford in rugby league. That does sound odd from an outsider.

Not Really. Keighley doesn't have a soccer team. The Bulls are seen as our local rivals.

No extra IMG marks for being the only professional team in town though.

[Morris Wanchuk]

10 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

I was born in Fev, but have lived in Wakefield since 1975, a lot of mates support / follow Wakefield. 

I hope you have success with this new guy, and you become a big club, but the sleeping giant bit seems to intimate that you were once a big club and will be again. Which is what I don't agree with.

Yeah I get that mate, those 8000 gates I mentioned under Glover didn’t last long & even Salford thought they’d found their saviour in the good Doctor & we saw how that ended!

The club has been comatose at times never mind sleeping but it does feel different with Ellis & hard not to get carried away with it all.

[fighting irish]

On 25/11/2023 at 17:25, Spidey said:

Thanks for that it did give me a laugh

Pray tell? 

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Pray tell? 

Referencing BARLA as a legitimate solution 

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Referencing BARLA as a legitimate solution 

Well that's not strictly true. I hope not everyone has so misunderstood me. Let me try again?

If the game is growing across the world, only as a result of the efforts of enthusiasts off their own backs and with their own money, then why can't it be done by similar people here, in this country?

It's a simple question, but one that's not been asked yet by anyone on the forum.

I'm absolutely convinced the RFL are not going to do it for us, so who then? All the new clubs set up in this country have been set up by people like me and Zylya and Bob Brown (and loads of others) for example.

What I'm proposing or suggesting is that our amateurs are our only hope. It's that people like this take up the cause. Set up local organisations (existing leagues if necessary) that take on the goal of development of the game.

We monitor the success of the SuperLeague by comparing (oh god, here we go ''key performance indicators'') such as revenues, spectator numbers etc. each year so why not measure the success of local areas by similar criteria which track increases in participation.

It's a self imposed measure obviously and a matter of pride.

The over-riding question as local/town/county head, or management group is, what have we done to increase participation over the last year? What have we done to introduce the game to new people? How many new coaches have we qualified?

I'm sure Romeo Monteith asks himself these questions every year, so why not the Heavy Woolen League say? or the London Amateur league, for example? All of us? There's more to life than just doing the same old, same old repetitive stuff, until everyone gets fed up, surely?

Let's get development on the agenda at every local league meeting. Be proud of the game. Raise our expectations. 

Anyway, to sum up there's no guarantee that this will happen, or that BARLA is or should be the body to do it. I know that.

What I'm saying is that our amateur body (family) ought to be doing it.

So as such, I see them as our only hope.

Edited November 27, 2023 by fighting irish

[Spidey]

37 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Well that's not strictly true. I hope not everyone has so misunderstood me. Let me try again?

If the game is growing across the world, only as a result of the efforts of enthusiasts off their own backs and with their own money, then why can't it be done by similar people here, in this country?

It's a simple question, but one that's not been asked yet by anyone on the forum.

I'm absolutely convinced the RFL are not going to do it for us, so who then? All the new clubs set up in this country have been set up by people like me and Zylya and Bob Brown (and loads of others) for example.

What I'm proposing or suggesting is that our amateurs are our only hope. It's that people like this take up the cause. Set up local organisations (existing leagues if necessary) that take on the goal of development of the game.

We monitor the success of the SuperLeague by comparing (oh god, here we go ''key performance indicators'') such as revenues, spectator numbers etc. each year so why not measure the success of local areas by similar criteria which track increases in participation.

It's a self imposed measure obviously and a matter of pride.

The over-riding question as local/town/county head, or management group is, what have we done to increase participation over the last year? What have we done to introduce the game to new people? How many new coaches have we qualified?

I'm sure Romeo Monteith asks himself these questions every year, so why not the Heavy Woolen League say? or the London Amateur league, for example? All of us? There's more to life than just doing the same old, same old repetitive stuff, until everyone gets fed up, surely?

Let's get development on the agenda at every local league meeting. Be proud of the game. Raise our expectations. 

Anyway, to sum up there's no guarantee that this will happen, or that BARLA is or should be the body to do it. I know that.

What I'm saying is that our amateur body (family) ought to be doing it.

So as such, I see them as our only hope.

Thanks for the clarification.    All amateurs are governed by the RFL now, there isn't a body like BARLA anymore.  So if amateurs are the future - they'd have to separate from the RFL, which is nigh on impossible to do now

[Tonka]

I’d love to see heartland clubs in a stronger state.  But I don’t think it necessarily creates a base for expansion because 

- from outside the M62 corridor not many will care

- even with the “giants” awoken it’s still a small game 

- there is massive competition from football and union and we get further and further behind

- there’s a very limited international game 

 

But expansion and development of existing clubs aren’t diametrically opposed, soooo.

My own view is that the national team is the number one priority if we want positive headlines.

[Mumby Magic]

15 hours ago, moorside roughyed said:

Supporting Bradford in soccer. Hating Bradford in rugby league. That does sound odd from an outsider.

It's a normally one of Bulls/City then one of Rhinos/United. I dont get it either.

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Thanks for the clarification.    All amateurs are governed by the RFL now, there isn't a body like BARLA anymore.  So if amateurs are the future - they'd have to separate from the RFL, which is nigh on impossible to do now

yes that corresponds to my knowledge of the history of the decline of BARLA.

But they could still do it couldn't they, as a branch of RFL, or as any local league could do, independently (like Newcastle/NE) who make it one of their main goals to move the game forward, rather than just manage the status quo?

[moorside roughyed]

1 hour ago, Mumby Magic said:

It's a normally one of Bulls/City then one of Rhinos/United. I dont get it either.

I don't get soccer, period.

[Spidey]

15 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

yes that corresponds to my knowledge of the history of the decline of BARLA.

But they could still do it couldn't they, as a branch of RFL, or as any local league could do, independently (like Newcastle/NE) who make it one of their main goals to move the game forward, rather than just manage the status quo?

I'm really not sure what you're getting at now - all of this already happens - plenty of leagues throughout the country.

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

I'm really not sure what you're getting at now - all of this already happens - plenty of leagues throughout the country.

Yes. What I suspect and of course I can't know, is that the leagues exists (in the main) to administer the league season with the minimum use of resources possible.

There's a subtlety here, but it's the essence of my point. They don't do it, with the minimum resources available. There's more there than they are making use of.

So, they create the fixture list, send it to all and sundry. Contact the referee's society and (perhaps) ask them to appoint referees for each of the games and ask them to let them know where and when they need to be each week. Then they take receipt of the results from the clubs each week and make up a league table, so that at the end, they can decide who's won the league.

There would probably have to be some kind of disciplinary committee to rule on misdemeanors and grave foul play etc. Just to keep the game legal and respectable of course.

Now almost all of this can be done virtually instantaneously these days with the internet so (forgive me, for saying so,) it's no biggy.

Well how about doing a bit more?

How about constituting a new, special, small group with the exclusive goal of developing the game? Solely focused on bringing more people, new people into the game locally every year. Who will do it? Well ask!

How do you bring more people in? well you decide. Each area might do it different. Many mistakes may be made. You'd have to stay on the right side of the law and safeguard any young people from predators or fools, so perhaps you might need to learn some stuff and/or call on local expertise to help you.

After a few attempts/rounds/seasons, perhaps those partaking could collaborate with other areas (to exchange the details of successful ideas/plans) so that each season, we (as a game) get better at it. Perhaps this is BARLA's role, to co-ordinate efforts across the country.

Our game is awash with coaches who are adept at monitoring and assessing performance. Those skills readily transfer to keeping score of and improving our development efforts. Ask them to help, or get one of them to manage the whole process. If there are people willing to do this in Africa, I'll eat my hat if they don't exist here at home. Just set-aside the cynicism. 

If you tell me that's going on in each of our local areas then I'll shut up, but I don't believe it.

The first step is to accept that it's an appropriate activity for local organising groups, then accept the responsibility for it, and get started.

Edited November 27, 2023 by fighting irish

[Spidey]

43 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Yes. What I suspect and of course I can't know, is that the leagues exists (in the main) to administer the league season with the minimum use of resources possible.

There's a subtlety here, but it's the essence of my point. They don't do it, with the minimum resources available. There's more there than they are making use of.

So, they create the fixture list, send it to all and sundry. Contact the referee's society and (perhaps) ask them to appoint referees for each of the games and ask them to let them know where and when they need to be each week. Then they take receipt of the results from the clubs each week and make up a league table, so that at the end, they can decide who's won the league.

There would probably have to be some kind of disciplinary committee to rule on misdemeanors and grave foul play etc. Just to keep the game legal and respectable of course.

Now almost all of this can be done virtually instantaneously these days with the internet so (forgive me, for saying so,) it's no biggy.

Well how about doing a bit more?

How about constituting a new, special, small group with the exclusive goal of developing the game? Solely focused on bringing more people, new people into the game locally every year. Who will do it? Well ask!

How do you bring more people in? well you decide. Each area might do it different. Many mistakes may be made. You'd have to stay on the right side of the law and safeguard any young people from predators or fools, so perhaps you might need to learn some stuff and/or call on local expertise to help you.

After a few attempts/rounds/seasons, perhaps those partaking could collaborate with other areas (to exchange the details of successful ideas/plans) so that each season, we (as a game) get better at it. Perhaps this is BARLA's role, to co-ordinate efforts across the country.

Our game is awash with coaches who are adept at monitoring and assessing performance. Those skills readily transfer to keeping score of and improving our development efforts. Ask them to help, or get one of them to manage the whole process. If there are people willing to do this in Africa, I'll eat my hat if they don't exist here at home. Just set-aside the cynicism. 

If you tell me that's going on in each of our local areas then I'll shut up, but I don't believe it.

The first step is to accept that it's an appropriate activity for local organising groups, then accept the responsibility for it, and get started.

You’ve got some big ideas there, I guarantee they have all been tried at some level, the main issue any of these have is available resource. The community game is not awash with willing volunteers, and those that are are concentrating on getting their respective clubs running

What you are really describing are a number of development officers. Something the RFL used to have in place and was a good driving force for some of the expansion of the original summer conference. That cost money. Money is required for this, now if you or I were running the RFL that would probably be the first pot of cash allocated in any budget - however the pro clubs have far too much sway and they get the cash they want first

The RFL need to be trusted to run the game independently from member clubs, who have their own interests and do some proper longer term planning, until control of the game is taken away from clubs there won’t be enough money to actually develop the game with any meaningful strategy 

[fighting irish]

36 minutes ago, Spidey said:

You’ve got some big ideas there, I guarantee they have all been tried at some level, the main issue any of these have is available resource. The community game is not awash with willing volunteers, and those that are are concentrating on getting their respective clubs running

What you are really describing are a number of development officers. Something the RFL used to have in place and was a good driving force for some of the expansion of the original summer conference. That cost money. Money is required for this, now if you or I were running the RFL that would probably be the first pot of cash allocated in any budget - however the pro clubs have far too much sway and they get the cash they want first

The RFL need to be trusted to run the game independently from member clubs, who have their own interests and do some proper longer term planning, until control of the game is taken away from clubs there won’t be enough money to actually develop the game with any meaningful strategy 

I've spent a good deal of my time in self employment.

Finding some potential customers, convincing them to let me do the work for them, actually doing the work - supplying the service, having to maintain standards, accumulating and keeping some working capital, collecting the cash, dealing with defaulters, doing some accounting (checking I was actually making some money and not kidding myself), then developing an amicable working relationship with the bank, was at times, an all out gut wrenching effort.

I worked, most of the time, many more than 40 hours a week for many many weeks and months to keep the business afloat. Then, I had to stay awake long enough to give my wife and family a bit of company and try to relax a bit or I'd have ended up divorced.

A small businessman/woman has to do all that just to get the business going (even before they make any money). Then they have to keep it going until they make enough to feed the family or it's an abject failure. Then they can truly claim to be in business.

I'll tell you now, that no-one can sustain that level of effort and stay at that level of income indefinitely because you'll die of exhaustion, bitter and defeated. If you have any ambitions of making any proper money and surviving long term, you have to ''grow'' the business so it can employ enough people to handle the extra work and ensure there's enough left over for yourself.

So why am I telling you this? Here it is.

It's not enough in any enterprise, to just maintain the status quo or just work enough hours to maintain it. You have to find some time, some extra time perhaps, or organise/prioritise your time so that you can devote some time, effort and ingenuity to growing the business. Without ongoing modest growth, it's almost inevitable you (your business) will die. Do you get this? If not, I'm wasting my time. 

I'm calling on our amateur administrators (everyone) to stop asking the RFL to do it,  stop waiting for them (the cavalry) their not coming. Let's get on with it, ourselves.