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IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)


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47 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In these matters as usual I would device my own crib sheet RP, with pro's on one side and negatives on the other, there would also be a good amount of 'feeling' attached, then I would look at elsewhere I belive the money could be better spent, without delving to deep I would not be investing in a London team.

Sorry but that is different to what I am saying.. you are talking now but I am saying that down the line when you have changed the landscape to make it worthwhile then you can invest with confidence then these pros and negatives would be different. Its the 5 year plan vs long term strategy and a business should have both. 

44 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Two points, no I don't believe IMG's methods will work. And secondly I cannot see them lasting long term, especially not in an organisation as fickle as the British Rugby League is.

but it is this that clouds everything.. you just wont believe that they will stay for the long term, you dont trust them even though they have a contract to do so and everything they have said is around doing so.. its obvious in every conversation we have on this and it clouds every discussion that is had with you in this.. it means that a proper conversation about these things is very difficult if you just stick heels in saying "but i just dont believe they will be here" even with all the evidence pointing to the fact they will (evidence as in what they have said and done so far).,

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

In these matters as usual I would device my own crib sheet RP, with pro's on one side and negatives on the other, there would also be a good amount of 'feeling' attached, then I would look at elsewhere I belive the money could be better spent, without delving to deep I would not be investing in a London team.

Genuine question Harry - would you ever invest anywhere other than the heartlands? I think the only proposal for investment I've ever seen you suggest is giving more money to the likes of Keighley, Oldham, Batley etc.

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Now that all the threads have been merged together, does this subject officially become the record-breaker taking the crown from 'Chris Joynt's Voluntary Tackle'? This is now officially the most contentious subject ever

I think it's important we take a step back and recognise the significance of this moment 🤣

image.jpeg.6d17c2e204aee85ef0a92a424bc22d4a.jpeg

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14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Genuine question Harry - would you ever invest anywhere other than the heartlands? I think the only proposal for investment I've ever seen you suggest is giving more money to the likes of Keighley, Oldham, Batley etc.

First part, No I wouldn't invest in a Pro RL club wherever it is, I don't think they are an investment as in getting a return.

Secondly, really have I made proposals for those clubs? If I did it would be spending someone elses money not mine.

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1 minute ago, Worzel said:

Now that all the threads have been merged together, does this subject officially become the record-breaker taking the crown from 'Chris Joynt's Voluntary Tackle'? This is now officially the most contentious subject ever

I think it's important we take a step back and recognise the significance of this moment 🤣

image.jpeg.6d17c2e204aee85ef0a92a424bc22d4a.jpeg

Yep, terrible then but now we see it in every game these days especially when fielding a kick near your own line.

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7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

First part, No I wouldn't invest in a Pro RL club wherever it is, I don't think they are an investment as in getting a return.

Secondly, really have I made proposals for those clubs? If I did it would be spending someone elses money not mine.

Apologies if I had it wrong (my memory isn't as reliable as it used to be! 😆 ) - but wasn't your proposal to share the central funding equally with the lower clubs?

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Apologies if I had it wrong (my memory isn't as reliable as it used to be! 😆 ) - but wasn't your proposal to share the central funding equally with the lower clubs?

Yes, that was a tounge in cheek remark on the thread in "How to Improve the Challenge Cup".

And really that is a whole can of worms, there have been many posters for quite a while and even a very prominent Chaiman who suggested all funding should be kept in SL - as they earn it, I wouldn't go as far as equal share for every club but I would apportion it differently so Championship and L1 clubs recieved more, but that is just my opinion.

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12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep, terrible then but now we see it in every game these days especially when fielding a kick near your own line.

The voluntary tackle seems to be allowed at all times in the SL. As Harry says, especially near their own line.

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26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes, that was a tounge in cheek remark on the thread in "How to Improve the Challenge Cup".

And really that is a whole can of worms, there have been many posters for quite a while and even a very prominent Chaiman who suggested all funding should be kept in SL - as they earn it, I wouldn't go as far as equal share for every club but I would apportion it differently so Championship and L1 clubs recieved more, but that is just my opinion.

So back to the original question - would you up investment in any non-heartland areas, or is your idea for the future of the game to give more funding to the likes of Keighley, Batley and Oldham?

And the question isn't just about investing in a pro club, I tend to agree that giving money to say, London, would probably be the wrong thing to do, but proper infrastructure support for example could be useful?

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47 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So back to the original question - would you up investment in any non-heartland areas, or is your idea for the future of the game to give more funding to the likes of Keighley, Batley and Oldham?

And the question isn't just about investing in a pro club, I tend to agree that giving money to say, London, would probably be the wrong thing to do, but proper infrastructure support for example could be useful?

Did I not express my intention when I said I would not invest in a Pro RL club wherever it is? and my idea for the future of the game is to not let ANY club below SL to drift away through lack of funding, if that means taking of the rich to feed the poor so be it.

Secondly, you did not say anything about investing in the bigger picture all you mentioned was Keighley, Oldham, Batley etc but since you conveniently change it, if you have looked at what I have been saying for a long long time I along with not many others who have been actually involved in the community side of the sport have been saying that we need to give this side of our game a real good dose of looking at including investment before it is to late, I have been actively involved for so long and witnessed how it is ebbing away that I fear in as little as 20/25 years time it will be in a ICU, if you or anyone has been a regular at the community side of the sport going back over the same period of time you will have witnessed the rapid decline.

Question, have IMG along with RL Commercial/RFL made any provision to pro side for the next generation of player's over the 12 year plan?

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Did I not express my intention when I said I would not invest in a Pro RL club wherever it is? and my idea for the future of the game is to not let ANY club below SL to drift away through lack of funding, if that means taking of the rich to feed the poor so be it.

Secondly, you did not say anything about investing in the bigger picture all you mentioned was Keighley, Oldham, Batley etc but since you conveniently change it, if you have looked at what I have been saying for a long long time I along with not many others who have been actually involved in the community side of the sport have been saying that we need to give this side of our game a real good dose of looking at including investment before it is to late, I have been actively involved for so long and witnessed how it is ebbing away that I fear in as little as 20/25 years time it will be in a ICU, if you or anyone has been a regular at the community side of the sport going back over the same period of time you will have witnessed the rapid decline.

Question, have IMG along with RL Commercial/RFL made any provision to pro side for the next generation of player's over the 12 year plan?

If you route more central funding to lower division clubs, that is the game investing in them. 

But tbh, Harry, your passive aggressive attitude to any kind of discussion is tiresome, so I'll leave you to it. 

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3 hours ago, RP London said:

but it is this that clouds everything.. you just wont believe that they will stay for the long term, you dont trust them even though they have a contract to do so and everything they have said is around doing so.. its obvious in every conversation we have on this and it clouds every discussion that is had with you in this.. it means that a proper conversation about these things is very difficult if you just stick heels in saying "but i just dont believe they will be here" even with all the evidence pointing to the fact they will (evidence as in what they have said and done so far).,

With regard to fans who've lived through the false promises and hogwash of the Super League launch, the variety of solutions provided posteriorly to that, the launch of licensing and its failure, various formats and tweaks since then, surely you'd understand a certain amount of scepticism about this brave new world?

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18 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry Martyn but I will totally disagree with you in that any club whoever they are or wherever they are based should be given preferential treatment of any kind, we have gone down this path before and it wasn't good then and neither would it be good again.

Every successful expansion club I can think of in every sport is given favourable treatment to encourage it to become established in a new market, whether that is financial, recruitment, fixture or salary cap advantages or even protection from relegation.

I don't think the Catalans would still be here, for example, if they hadn't been protected from relegation in their early years.

If you can name any examples of expansion clubs that have gone on to prosper without being given any advantages, I would be happy for you to list them.

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Theoretical question. Let's just say someone like Leicester Tigers decided they were going to become a RL club. They are based in an expansion area, have great facilities and a big fan base. Where would they figure in IMG ratings? Am just trying to figure out if the downside of IMG is that it favours established clubs.

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24 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

With regard to fans who've lived through the false promises and hogwash of the Super League launch, the variety of solutions provided posteriorly to that, the launch of licensing and its failure, various formats and tweaks since then, surely you'd understand a certain amount of scepticism about this brave new world?

Thing is its not the scepticism of the brave new world that I commented about, I am sceptical about whether this will ultimately succeed. Its the fact its "I cant see them lasting long term" that then clouds the conversation when you are talking about long term investment in areas and 5 years plans vs long term strategy.. I have lived through all of what you say and remember the start of Super League well so I am "stained" with the same knowledge and experience of these short term gains. The fact they have a 12 year contractual obligation and have been talking like they mean it makes me actually think there is hope becuase its not 1 person who can just walk away and their plans go with them its a company that will want to maximise the dividend they get from this.

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37 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Every successful expansion club I can think of in every sport is given favourable treatment to encourage it to become established in a new market, whether that is financial, recruitment, fixture or salary cap advantages or even protection from relegation.

I don't think the Catalans would still be here, for example, if they hadn't been protected from relegation in their early years.

If you can name any examples of expansion clubs that have gone on to prosper without being given any advantages, I would be happy for you to list them.

Thank you for your answer, I used the expression that ours is an impoverished sport and I believe that to be true. If we (the sport not private finance) can find the money to support one club, where do you suggest it will it come from, what will give? And I have never ever been a fan of clubs in the same division being excempt from jeopardy whilst all the others are subject to it.

 

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31 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Theoretical question. Let's just say someone like Leicester Tigers decided they were going to become a RL club. They are based in an expansion area, have great facilities and a big fan base. Where would they figure in IMG ratings? Am just trying to figure out if the downside of IMG is that it favours established clubs.

If they signed legally binding contracts committing substantial minimum investment over a prolonged period of time, then they should and would rightly be considered as one of the top clubs almost immediately.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

If you route more central funding to lower division clubs, that is the game investing in them. 

But tbh, Harry, your passive aggressive attitude to any kind of discussion is tiresome, so I'll leave you to it. 

Initially Dave you asked me a question about investment which I took to be from a personal point of view, and I thought that I answered that accordingly.

Then you went to investing in the structure, for years I have banged the drum for proper investment - from the sport - in the community side of the sport but it usually falls on fallow ground, I apologise if you took it as coming over as aggressive, it is something very close to me.

I honestly believe as I intimated that the sport should be putting a lot of effort into this area, and I asked the question re what are the plans in this area, if there are any I am not privy to them.

 

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1 hour ago, marklaspalmas said:

With regard to fans who've lived through the false promises and hogwash of the Super League launch, the variety of solutions provided posteriorly to that, the launch of licensing and its failure, various formats and tweaks since then, surely you'd understand a certain amount of scepticism about this brave new world?

The Super League launch was a shambles, and Lindsay was a cowboy, but I do think that we shouldn't allow that to unfairly judge what SL has done for the sport since it started. 

If I look back at those early 90's, we have really moved our top flight on since then, we play in summer, in great facilities, every game on TV, crowds have increased substantially, have a strong French club, have introduced a great Grand Final and have tried some exciting things like Magic etc. 

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1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Every successful expansion club I can think of in every sport is given favourable treatment to encourage it to become established in a new market, whether that is financial, recruitment, fixture or salary cap advantages or even protection from relegation.

I don't think the Catalans would still be here, for example, if they hadn't been protected from relegation in their early years.

If you can name any examples of expansion clubs that have gone on to prosper without being given any advantages, I would be happy for you to list them.

How does that work in say, MLS where a new club would need to pay a huge buy-in fee. What kind of advantages do they get? That's not a loaded question by the way, my understanding is that they pay a substantial cost, i'm not sure what benefits they are buying, othr than a place.

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1 hour ago, OriginalMrC said:

Theoretical question. Let's just say someone like Leicester Tigers decided they were going to become a RL club. They are based in an expansion area, have great facilities and a big fan base. Where would they figure in IMG ratings? Am just trying to figure out if the downside of IMG is that it favours established clubs.

Based on what is in the public domain, it would appear that the days of a new club launching in the top division are gone. 

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42 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

If they signed legally binding contracts committing substantial minimum investment over a prolonged period of time, then they should and would rightly be considered as one of the top clubs almost immediately.

We don't have a franchise buy in though. They wouldn't score enough until they have been an RL club and have some tangible results.

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How does that work in say, MLS where a new club would need to pay a huge buy-in fee. What kind of advantages do they get? That's not a loaded question by the way, my understanding is that they pay a substantial cost, i'm not sure what benefits they are buying, othr than a place.

You are absolutely right, but the difference is that in MLS the financial and governance entity is the league itself.

That means that the league negotiates all the salaries centrally and determines which players play with which clubs.

Essentially every club shares the underlying risk equally. No club bears that risk alone.

I would love to see Rugby League adopt the MLS model.

I wrote about that here.

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10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We don't have a franchise buy in though. They wouldn't score enough until they have been an RL club and have some tangible results.

Its moot anyway because it'll never happen. 

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