IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[Roughyed Rats]

1 minute ago, JohnM said:

Existence, extinction, relevance, stadiums, crowds, players, visibility, ....

I'm pretty sure you can't lose existence and lose extinction at the same time. Relevance - really? What relevance have we now? Players - so where would all the players who don't make the elite play? You could argue that it would increase access to players as the 'franchisers' would use the competition to blood / develop players (as per Aus). Visibility - again really are you actually being serious? The only valid point is stadiums for those like us that share with football teams. The rest shows a complete lack of understanding (or caring) just how dire things currently are outside the top flight.

[LeeF]

26 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Outside the elite, the semi-pro game is a disaster. £12,000 of central distributions for my club last season. No TV revenue. What would my club and other clubs really have to lose?

All the costs that are currently met by the RFL which is primarily funded by the TV deals obtained by the SL clubs. 

[Roughyed Rats]

6 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Give it a go then. Let's us know how it goes. You'll probably need your own rules as the RFL may well own the copyright, so your rules might have to be substantially different. It'll cost money for the lawyers to work it out 

I'm not suggesting a breakaway. I'm suggesting a restructure of the game under the RFL. A move to franchising for the summer and a more traditional structure in the Winter. 

[Click]

6 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Exactly my point. Move to winter rugby and there might be some interest from TV and SL fans coming to games.

Move to winter rugby so you are competing against Football and Rugby Union? I am not sure why moving to Winter would increase interest, TV stations have lots of content from Football throughout winter.

I would hate to have to stand in stadiums that are in the Championship and L1 on a October/November/December. Aren't most RL fans now in their 50s and 60s? - Sounds like one way to kill off an aging fanbase, rather than increase.

 

[LeeF]

8 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Exactly my point. Move to winter rugby and there might be some interest from TV and SL fans coming to games.

Might is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

How much do you think the clubs would need to find to fund all central costs? Things like Administration, Disciplinary, Match Officials, Marketing etc are not free in your scenario

[Harry Stottle]

54 minutes ago, Worzel said:

It’s standard in sporting competitions for disputes to have to go through a pre-agreed resolution process, the recourse to law is always deliberately limited. Those who aren’t happy with those terms have the option to not enter the openly tendered competition in the first place if they don’t like it - they’re not forced to participate.

A sports league is not a free market, by design they’re invitational and exclusive. Governing bodies have a lot more power than organisations in other markets.

Well we shall see what happens if that fraction of a point comes into play on the next spreadsheet which as you know could mean a club losing SL status.

You know it accrued to me when writing that last bit - losing SL status - how it was treated with such horror and trepidation when your club (but it could have been anyone) lost in the MPG and it relegated them, it was said people will lose jobs, the club would lose a lot of central funding, but the thing is the club had a fighting chance on the field to sort their destiny, this system doesn't offer that to the same degree.

[Roughyed Rats]

15 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Might is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

How much do you think the clubs would need to find to fund all central costs? Things like Administration, Disciplinary, Match Officials, Marketing etc are not free in your scenario

If this was a restructure under the RFL what would need to change? Had to laugh when you said marketing 

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy, I distinctly said "it is the British Psych" and mentioned the major pro sports which you are taking to task, I also said P&R is very evident in many other sports/pastimes if there are enough in the teams in the system to have more than one division, you have for reasons of your own failed to mention, somehow you have missed the intention of my post.

The British Psyche is then based on what Harry? Those sports you all highlighted don't support what you are saying?

People do like P/R, but they like it in terms they accept like "this is the agreed standard".

[Hopie]

I prefer P+R to licenses/franchises/grading, some of you may prefer otherwise, that is fine. I also believe like last time it was tried in the UK, this will cause more harm than good to the overall Rugby League structure and will not achieve the 2 main goals the game should have, get more people playing, and more people watching. The difference between a team at the bottom of Super League and a team at the top of the championship is that one is in the Super League and one is in the championship, drawing an arbitrary point in time and making that difference permanent is not fair  (even if technically promotion is still possible the reality of the system will prevent it in all but exceptional circumstances) or a good idea for growing the game as a whole.

This version of licensing is not a good one, and the criteria need to be adjusted (but seemingly are not going to be), even if you like the theory of grading, this is not the best practical way to do it. Pointing out it is better than some other stupid idea posted on a forum, or that the clubs voted for it (nobody ever voted for something that would harm them before...) doesn't change the obvious problems with the system and it won't solve the bigger problems the game has. Dividing the increasingly small pie in different ways is the opposite of what we need, a bigger pie. Short term gains for some is not the way to build long term goals for the whole sport.

[LeeF]

25 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

If this was a restructure under the RFL what would need to change? Had to laugh when you said marketing 

Why would they agree to that? Even the main Amateur competitions are summer based

You may laugh at marketing but every tweet, every Facebook post, every press release etc all count. Drop the “marketing” and then see the visibility disappear even further

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Outside the elite, the semi-pro game is a disaster. £12,000 of central distributions for my club last season. No TV revenue. What would my club and other clubs really have to lose?

£12000, I suppose.

Championship clubs have just rejected a TV offer from Premier because it wasn't good enough.  It was the best offer they had.

I don't know what you mean by TV revenue - where do you think your £12000 came from?

Edited April 9 by Griff

[Worzel]

58 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

     Does anyone think that todays SL clubs are better than those of 20 years ago?.And with no relegation the standard apart from  the top half a dozen clubs will continue to regress.The Championship has been improving over the last 12 years more so when there was a chance of promotion.I am afraid that now it will also regress and fans will vote with their feet.There was a chance to expand the game and develop younger players with two SL divisions of 10 and a League 1 or championship below.But SL clubs don't want to give up SKY money for the long term good of the game.

We've had promotion and relegation for those 20 years, so it's clearly not a factor in quality improvement by your own measure. The reason we're implementing all the IMG changes is precisely because the old ways (not just around promotion and relegation) clearly weren't working. 

 

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Click said:

I don't understand why people think that clubs won't be challenging to win games because there is no relegation......

My experience is that players like winning.   Whilst clubs may win promotion, quite often, players stay behind.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Exactly my point. Move to winter rugby and there might be some interest from TV and SL fans coming to games.

Might?

Have you considered that there might not?

[Roughyed Rats]

3 minutes ago, Griff said:

Might?

Have you considered that there might not?

Of course there might not but we've literally nothing to lose. The situation is dire. The game is suffering a slow death outside the top flight, so do we just slip away gradually and watch the game shrink slowly and painfully or do we try something else?

Would some SL fans would go to games in the Winter? I might even be tempted to watch a SL game.  

[Click]

16 minutes ago, Griff said:

My experience is that players like winning.   Whilst clubs may win promotion, quite often, players stay behind.

I am confused as to what point you are making. Players stay behind in the championship after being promoted? I am not sure what you mean.

[Click]

1 minute ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Of course there might not but we've literally nothing to lose. The situation is dire. The game is suffering a slow death outside the top flight, so do we just slip away gradually and watch the game shrink slowly and painfully or do we try something else?

Would some SL fans would go to games in the Winter? I might even be tempted to watch a SL game.  

Your club has literally £12k to lose for a start, so not exactly "nothing" for the size of the clubs that are in the Championship and L1. 

I doubt more SL fans would go to games in the Winter, I don't see why you would be tempted to watch a SL game if the championship was in the Winter. If you aren't tempting to watch one now, as a RL fan, then why would you then?

[Roughyed Rats]

1 minute ago, Click said:

Your club has literally £12k to lose for a start, so not exactly "nothing" for the size of the clubs that are in the Championship and L1. 

I doubt more SL fans would go to games in the Winter, I don't see why you would be tempted to watch a SL game if the championship was in the Winter. If you aren't tempting to watch one now, as a RL fan, then why would you then?

£12,000 is nothing in terms of the overall cost of running a club. 

If Oldham are playing, I watch them. If they are not and I wanted to see a game, I might be tempted to go and watch (or stream) a SL game. On free weekends (we had plenty last season), I did exactly that. Similarly, if SL fans wanted to watch some RL in their off season, they may be tempted to go to a game of winter RL. We had quite a few Wigan and St Helens fans at BP for our earlier games this season before SL started. 

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Roughyed Rats said:

I'm not suggesting a breakaway. I'm suggesting a restructure of the game under the RFL. A move to franchising for the summer and a more traditional structure in the Winter. 

Understood, thanks 

[Griff]

39 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Dividing the increasingly small pie in different ways is the opposite of what we need, a bigger pie. Short term gains for some is not the way to build long term goals for the whole sport.

Point of order - can you have an increasingly small pie?

[Click]

5 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

£12,000 is nothing in terms of the overall cost of running a club. 

If Oldham are playing, I watch them. If they are not and I wanted to see a game, I might be tempted to go and watch (or stream) a SL game. On free weekends (we had plenty last season), I did exactly that. Similarly, if SL fans wanted to watch some RL in their off season, they may be tempted to go to a game of winter RL. We had quite a few Wigan and St Helens fans at BP for our earlier games this season before SL started. 

With how small a lot of our RL clubs are, £12k isn't exactly nothing. I would suggest most clubs in the pyramid struggle to get a shirt sponsor that will give that kind of money over. 

Unfortunately, most RL clubs in this country, as with most clubs in various sports, seemingly have zero idea about how to make money. 

Didn't your new owners at Oldham speak quite positive about what IMG is allowing them to do? 

[Griff]

15 minutes ago, Click said:

I am confused as to what point you are making. Players stay behind in the championship after being promoted? I am not sure what you mean.

They move to other clubs and are replaced by other players.

Not 100% true, of course, but players are generally in the Championship for one of two reasons.  They are not good enough for Superleague or they don't want to play full time, for whatever reason.

[Griff]

19 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Of course there might not but we've literally nothing to lose. The situation is dire. The game is suffering a slow death outside the top flight, so do we just slip away gradually and watch the game shrink slowly and painfully or do we try something else?

Would some SL fans would go to games in the Winter? I might even be tempted to watch a SL game.  

It's supposedly been on its death bed for the sixty odd years I've been watching the game.  Yet it's still here.

[Roughyed Rats]

2 minutes ago, Click said:

With how small a lot of our RL clubs are, £12k isn't exactly nothing. I would suggest most clubs in the pyramid struggle to get a shirt sponsor that will give that kind of money over. 

Unfortunately, most RL clubs in this country, as with most clubs in various sports, seemingly have zero idea about how to make money. 

Didn't your new owners at Oldham speak quite positive about what IMG is allowing them to do? 

I think it's fair to say they expressed concerns (particularly about the longevity) and were supportive of P&R but understand that the game needs to do something different. I know for a fact that Oldham's shirt sponsorship dwarfs that amount this season.

[Click]

3 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

I think it's fair to say they expressed concerns (particularly about the longevity) and were supportive of P&R but understand that the game needs to do something different. I know for a fact that Oldham's shirt sponsorship dwarfs that amount this season.

And that is great for Oldham, what about other teams around them in the Championship and L1? 

Oldham currently look like a club that are in a positive place, and are growing now, which is good. Unfortunately, not all teams can say the same for the main part.