War of the Roses (Again)

[17 stone giant]

I voted yes, either for just a Roses or for something like what Archie G suggested, simply because I don't see anything else being done. I can't see any prospect for two proper international windows, so what does that leave us with? I think we've got to become more self sufficient.

 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

18 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I voted yes, either for just a Roses or for something like what Archie G suggested, simply because I don't see anything else being done. I can't see any prospect for two proper international windows, so what does that leave us with? I think we've got to become more self sufficient.

 

The problem we've got is that for the Wars of the Roses to be a success, we're relying on the same people who have proved utterly incapable of making the international game a success. So reinstating a Roses match would be like moving deckchairs on the Titanic IMO.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

2 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Do we know what the responses were?

Also, do we know what the players think?

Dunno ...I was the same as I am here. It has potential and I'd be interested 

[17 stone giant]

19 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Got a plan to get the NRL stars over here?

Aeroplanes.

[Griff]

3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The problem we've got is that for the Wars of the Roses to be a success, we're relying on the same people who have proved utterly incapable of making the international game a success. So reinstating a Roses match would be like moving deckchairs on the Titanic IMO.

Well, the underlying problem is that, for such a game to be successful you need to create two sides of roughly equal ability to which supporters will attach their allegiance.

Sixty years (or more) ago, Yorkshire v Lancashire fitted the bill.

Now, it doesn't.

[gingerjon]

3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The problem we've got is that for the Wars of the Roses to be a success, we're relying on the same people who have proved utterly incapable of making the international game a success. So reinstating a Roses match would be like moving deckchairs on the Titanic IMO.

A further problem is that by organising it we're not learning any of the lessons from the World Cup, the mid season internationals or the Tonga series.

Yorkshire and Lancashire are already saturated for top class rugby league. A further game there is selling to the same people who already get to pick and choose from the best rugby league in the country. And it's been shown that there really aren't massive numbers wanting to come out for extra games.

And a Roses match, by definition, only really has meaning if played in Yorkshire or Lancashire so you have to overcome something that we really should have learned to avoid having to overcome.

[Dave T]

This sounds great. Have we ever done anything like this before? 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

A further problem is that by organising it we're not learning any of the lessons from the World Cup, the mid season internationals or the Tonga series.

Yorkshire and Lancashire are already saturated for top class rugby league. A further game there is selling to the same people who already get to pick and choose from the best rugby league in the country. And it's been shown that there really aren't massive numbers wanting to come out for extra games.

And a Roses match, by definition, only really has meaning if played in Yorkshire or Lancashire so you have to overcome something that we really should have learned to avoid having to overcome.

Excellent point. Hit the nail on the head there. England could play pretty much anyone outside of the heartlands, and with the right promotion (I appreciate this will never happen) they could easily get bigger crowds than they get for their half-hearted mid-season efforts in the heartlands. There just isn't the vision, expertise, money, resource or will to do it.

I'll tell you exactly what would happen if we reincarnated the Wars of the Roses - we'd do it for 2-3 years, with diminishing interest, then talk would shift to "why don't we try an England v All-Stars type game?" And then after 2-3 years of that with diminishing interest, people would be asking "why don't we play France every year?" And we'll come full circle back to where we are now.

[Hopie]

I always enjoy this discussion, and those similar to it for those standard phrases that need translating:

Nobody is interested in this = I am not interested in this

This has failed before = I am not interested in this

This is a terrible idea =  I am not interested in this

etc

[JM2010]

I think if done right the games would be great to watch but it would take a big effort to make it high profile for both players and fans.

Ideally France, Wales and possibly Ireland need to be invested in and built up to offer England competitive fixtures mid season. If this had been done 20+ years ago then we might have a decent mid season tournament by now. Is it worth starting to make that happen now and being patient enough for France and Wales to become more competitive?

[JohnM]

 Need jeopardy, antagonism, need scores to settle, desire to be top dog, a cause to espouse, something meaningful that potential fans can get behind.  Get a good crowd screaming for sucess, creating an atmosphere that motivates the teams. 

Globally, we've the World Cup.

At club level were covered by the WCC, Challenge Cup, Grand Final.

We're covered at international level: one thing and one thing only: GB Vs Aus.

So at national level, what could match any of these?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

15 hours ago, JohnM said:

 Need jeopardy, antagonism, need scores to settle, desire to be top dog, a cause to espouse, something meaningful that potential fans can get behind.  Get a good crowd screaming for sucess, creating an atmosphere that motivates the teams. 

Globally, we've the World Cup.

At club level were covered by the WCC, Challenge Cup, Grand Final.

We're covered at international level: one thing and one thing only: GB Vs Aus.

So at national level, what could match any of these?

World Cup Qualifiers or some sort of European Championships would be my imperfect solution. WC qualifiers would instantly add meaning to any random England games against 'weaker' opposition. More importantly, WC qualifiers or a Euro champs would instantly carry meaning for any potential fans outside of the heartlands. England is the major draw for these people, as opposed to the perceived quality of the opposition and competitiveness of the fixture, so bracketing any England games under these two categories would be a way of increasing the importance of the games for lay people. As @gingerjon pointed out earlier, the heartlands is already saturated for top class RL. They're not going to get big numbers to watch England v France/Wales/Combined Nations mid-season, and they won't go and watch Yorks v Lancs either. Using these games to spread the gospel in other areas is the way to go IMO.

[Dave T]

17 hours ago, Hopie said:

I always enjoy this discussion, and those similar to it for those standard phrases that need translating:

Nobody is interested in this = I am not interested in this

This has failed before = I am not interested in this

This is a terrible idea =  I am not interested in this

etc

Not really. 

I've been to Lancs v Yorks before, I'd happily go again, but I think it's a terrible idea because it'd fail again just like it has previously. 

Literally nothibg has changed to male this a success this time. 

[headtackle]

On 18/04/2024 at 18:49, sam4731 said:

And how many born and bred northerners are going to pull a 'South' shirt on because they had a grandmother from Devon.

Other than LMS (now retired) I honestly do not know how many players we have in the game who are from outside of the M62 corridor

To get it started you may have to stretch things a bit but we have already done that with some of our international teams. 

Where we draw the line North/South might have to be flexible as well

However as we know we need to promote the game to a wider audience. A game like this would be marketable and would catch the attention of the media. 

Interestingly my youtube feed has just thrown up the Cross Code challenge games Wigan/Bath. I am not saying that we go back down that route but I do remember at the time the interest generated and some of the media excitement when they speculated whether a Southern team could beat Wigan.

If we are having regional teams/rep fixtures I honestly believe that only this would work. Games like Lancashire/Yorkshire/Cumbria/Other Nationalities have lost their spark and the War of the Roses doesn't really work for any sport now  

 

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Not really. 

I've been to Lancs v Yorks before, I'd happily go again, but I think it's a terrible idea because it'd fail again just like it has previously. 

Literally nothibg has changed to male this a success this time. 

If the game was played, I would watch it, assuming it was on a platform I have access to, - attending would be unlikely - and want a Yorkshire win.

I would probably,  based on track record, underestimate the on the day attendance beforehand.

What hasn't changed is that it would be a budget offer, draw in no new fans or sponsors, and likely feature players who have greater commitments by far to their club sides.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

If the game was played, I would watch it, assuming it was on a platform I have access to, - attending would be unlikely - and want a Yorkshire win.

I would probably,  based on track record, underestimate the on the day attendance beforehand.

What hasn't changed is that it would be a budget offer, draw in no new fans or sponsors, and likely feature players who have greater commitments by far to their club sides.

It'd likely get 10-12k in Leeds. And then we'd move to 2 games, 10k in Leeds and 7k in Wire or Saints. 

Wed scrap it. 

[17 stone giant]

Isn't this the sort of event that it might be worth giving to Eddie Hearn and letting him run it? Set the deal up so that he provides the bulk of the money for promoting and venues etc. and gets a chunk of the profits if he can make a success of it.

[Hopie]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

Not really. 

I've been to Lancs v Yorks before, I'd happily go again, but I think it's a terrible idea because it'd fail again just like it has previously. 

Literally nothibg has changed to male this a success this time. 

Let's not do it because it will fail, but what do you mean by fail? Your post after this mentions attendances and that we wouldn't stick with it?

The crowds last time were fine, but for me that should be a secondary consideration, if it basically pays for itself and the time in camp for the teams that's all we need. When we played last time it was followed by competitive Tier 1 internationals at the end of the season, it was a building block not an end to itself. 
Admittedly history shows the game is quick to change things (sometimes a strength, sometimes a weakness) but that we might give up on it again is a risk worth taking. For me, the need to establish a mid season break in the Super League season where we play representative games is paramount. This is the best option for filling that window at present so I'll support it until someone suggests a better one.

[Dave T]

51 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Let's not do it because it will fail, but what do you mean by fail? Your post after this mentions attendances and that we wouldn't stick with it?

The crowds last time were fine, but for me that should be a secondary consideration, if it basically pays for itself and the time in camp for the teams that's all we need. When we played last time it was followed by competitive Tier 1 internationals at the end of the season, it was a building block not an end to itself. 
Admittedly history shows the game is quick to change things (sometimes a strength, sometimes a weakness) but that we might give up on it again is a risk worth taking. For me, the need to establish a mid season break in the Super League season where we play representative games is paramount. This is the best option for filling that window at present so I'll support it until someone suggests a better one.

I don't see anything compelling in there. Your benefits are very meh. 

[Hopie]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't see anything compelling in there. Your benefits are very meh. 

You haven't suggested a better alternative.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Hopie said:

You haven't suggested a better alternative.

I mean that's not how it works. 

But if we want to get internationals in camps, then stage international camps, probably playing France as the starter. But if we have to travel down under to do it, then do that. We shouldn't rule that out.

But, it ultimately depends what we're trying to achieve here. 

[JohnM]

Agreed. The only point for me would be to set up a fixture that has some competitive meaning to media, players, fans and prospective fans. Not a pointless friendly played in a carnival spirit, but a fixture between two sides with something to prove and that the wider prospective fan base can get behind at a national level.

so Lancs v Yorks? No.

[Hopie]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I mean that's not how it works. 

But if we want to get intern Iationals in camps, then stage international camps, probably playing France as the starter. But if we have to travel down under to do it, then do that. We shouldn't rule that out.

But, it ultimately depends what we're trying to achieve here. 

We can do nothing or something, I don't think nothing is an option worth exploring. Therefore there needs to be something and I support going with the best possible option.

At points in history matches against "other nationalities", Wales or France would be good options, but at the moment they are not as the standard of players is not there. I agree playing a higher standard of international would be better than the Roses/County of origin series, unfortunately I see no realistic basis for that happening based on the appetite for internationals from the authorities in the southern hemisphere and the power the NRL has over players.

[headtackle]

Agree, the game v France last year illustrated the lack of appetite for a game v them. The options I can see for a game would be 

- England v France and or Wales

- 5 Nations but England Lions, France, Wales, Scotland & Ireland

- Lancashire v Yorkshire origin game

- England v All Stars 

- North v South

The more I type the less appeal any of these games have. I would watch them on TV and go if it was handy but not get overly excited

One other option could be to use what they used to do in Union and have England trial games - a mid season 1 off game although ideally building to a 3 match series Probables v Possibles (or some other catchy names). 

England coach gets first pick for squad of probables. After that a guest coach selects from what is left to come up with the Possibles.

With end of year test places available it should guarantee some fierce competition and should be far more intensive than any of the above. Probables wouldnt be able to cry off or ease up and the Possibles would have nothing to lose.

Could generate a lot of interest, argument and discussion before during and in the lead up to year end games.  

 

[Dave T]

13 hours ago, headtackle said:

Agree, the game v France last year illustrated the lack of appetite for a game v them. The options I can see for a game would be 

- England v France and or Wales

- 5 Nations but England Lions, France, Wales, Scotland & Ireland

- Lancashire v Yorkshire origin game

- England v All Stars 

- North v South

The more I type the less appeal any of these games have. I would watch them on TV and go if it was handy but not get overly excited

One other option could be to use what they used to do in Union and have England trial games - a mid season 1 off game although ideally building to a 3 match series Probables v Possibles (or some other catchy names). 

England coach gets first pick for squad of probables. After that a guest coach selects from what is left to come up with the Possibles.

With end of year test places available it should guarantee some fierce competition and should be far more intensive than any of the above. Probables wouldnt be able to cry off or ease up and the Possibles would have nothing to lose.

Could generate a lot of interest, argument and discussion before during and in the lead up to year end games.  

 

I've always liked the idea of England vs Possibles. Basically Wane gets his first picks and then a guest coach picks a team of next in lines. 

I don't think it'd be commercially strong or anything, but on the field I'd find it most interesting.