War of the Roses (Again)

[Damien]

25 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

There's never been "loads of marketing" for anything in rugby league except for finals and end of season internationals. It was marketed as County of Origin, but other than a name and a logo, what else did they do?

Even with the England brand advantage, you can't get anyone to go to a mid-season drubbing with half the team playing at the other side of the world. It's very close to reserve international standard. 

The fact that you think there's not much of a difference between playing on a Wednesday night and playing on a Saturday evening is laughable by the way. You surely don't mean that.

So one England team is close to reserve international standard but splitting that in two is somehow a higher standard. Gotcha, that makes complete sense.

[Mumby Magic]

I'm quite straight forward on this subject. There's no need for it. We have quite a lot of clubs not in either county that are playing semi pro or in SL. 

It has to be Internationals. 

[Hopie]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

So one England team is close to reserve international standard but splitting that in two is somehow a higher standard. Gotcha, that makes complete sense.

Come on, an opinion that you prefer England v France to Yorkshire v Lancashire/County of Origin is subjective and that is fine, but there is no way you can be anything but deliberately misunderstanding the fact that France is a weak opposition. According to Rugby League Project France haven't beaten England in my lifetime, and looking at the results you struggle to find an example of them getting close.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Come on, an opinion that you prefer England v France to Yorkshire v Lancashire/County of Origin is subjective and that is fine, but there is no way you can be anything but deliberately misunderstanding the fact that France is a weak opposition. According to Rugby League Project France haven't beaten England in my lifetime, and looking at the results you struggle to find an example of them getting close.

I haven't misrepresented anything, so don't make things up, and I didnt even mention France v England. I fully acknowledge the flaws with that fixture and have long pointed them out on here and how it can be improved.

I am merely pointing out the double standards of all these Lancashire v Yorkshire arguments and almost every criticism of England v France also applies to any county game. Those arguing for Yorkshire v Lancashire keep choosing to ignore that though.

Edited April 22 by Damien

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

So one England team is close to reserve international standard but splitting that in two is somehow a higher standard. Gotcha, that makes complete sense.

One England team at close to reserve international standard playing a team that is below reserve international standard is a lower standard than 2 teams at close to reserve international standard, yes. 

The mistake you made was not remembering that France are lightyears away, even from our reserves. It's a poor matchup.

[Damien]

27 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

One England team at close to reserve international standard playing a team that is below reserve international standard is a lower standard than 2 teams at close to reserve international standard, yes. 

The mistake you made was not remembering that France are lightyears away, even from our reserves. It's a poor matchup.

I know what France is like, no one is sugarcoating that. The trouble for you is I also remember what low quality the Lancashire v Yorkshire matches were like.

[17 stone giant]

21 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know what France is like, no one is sugarcoating that. The trouble for you is I also remember what low quality the Lancashire v Yorkshire matches were like.

The difference is that France players can't choose to be better than they are, but Lancashire and Yorkshire players can choose not to bother trying.

[Damien]

13 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

The difference is that France players can't choose to be better than they are, but Lancashire and Yorkshire players can choose not to bother trying.

France certainly can choose to be better than they are. Catalans players don't have to drop out with 'injuries', they don't need to schedule a France game on the same day as a Toulouse one, they can work much harder to develop and expand the game in France and their players pool etc. There is heaps France can do to improve themselves. Yes sure they still probably won't be good enough in the foreseeable future but it's plainly false to say there is nothing they can do.

Sure Lancashire and Yorkshire players can choose to bother not trying. However there is ample evidence, going back to the first one of these games I watched in the 1980's, to say they won't.

[sam4731]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Your words were as follows. You either stand by them or you don't. If you don't and wish to apply double standards then that's fine:

 

But if a whole administration changes (which in 20 years I'm assumingit has), surely they can't be responsible for the failures of what has gone before them, and should be free to try previous failed ideas to put their own spin on them, without feeling that they're simply dragging up the past.

[Tommygilf]

If we had strong Lancashire Rugby League and Yorkshire RL organisations, with pathways - and other regions with similar etc, it could work.

Right now it would just be the RFL splitting itself and they already organise the existing events poorly.

[RP London]

If we are going to ham fist something then the play the original international fixture of England v Other Nationalities.. we can have the best of the french along with home nations and the exiles.. at least there is some history, its almost an "origin" in that its the origin of the international game etc etc.. 

Its still not ideal but it might be better than what we have had.. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

I know what France is like, no one is sugarcoating that. The trouble for you is I also remember what low quality the Lancashire v Yorkshire matches were like.

Each to their own. I enjoyed the Roses series in the 00s, and the reason for a somewhat lower than normal quality would be more down to backing up after a SL game IMO.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, RP London said:

If we are going to ham fist something then the play the original international fixture of England v Other Nationalities.. we can have the best of the french along with home nations and the exiles.. at least there is some history, its almost an "origin" in that its the origin of the international game etc etc.. 

Its still not ideal but it might be better than what we have had.. 

Like I say, for me it just doesn't feel like an England game if it's not the best available players. It never will be unless it's played Down Under. 

Can we compromise with an annual mid-season England international Down Under on the same weekend as Yorkshire v Lancashire, France v Wales and Ireland v Scotland? (Throw in England Knights v Jamaica for those not eligible for Yorks/Lancs).

[Dave T]

If we did this, which stadium do you think we'd go for when Lancashire get a home game?

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If we did this, which stadium do you think we'd go for when Lancashire get a home game?

Saints if they are being cheap*, Bolton or even larger if they were being ambitious, probably Wigan as somewhere down the middle.

*forgot the LSV...

I doubt Warrington, Widnes or Salford would be considered.

Edited April 22 by Tommygilf

[sam4731]

I think people are misunderstanding my original point. I never intended for a roses match to simply come along and solve all of our problems, I just thought that things with the mid season international break couldn't get much worse, so why not try a different angle.

Maybe it wouldn't work but why write it off before it's given a chance.

Yes I know, it has already failed in the past but a generation has passed and maybe the long gap is just what the fixture needs to be refreshed.

Or maybe not... but we won't know until we try.

[JM2010]

I think the thing we all seem to agree on is that RL in the UK needs some kind of event. 
The NRL has Origin, RU has the 6 Nations, Cricket has lots of Internationals plus events like the 100.

 The RFL just need to organise something and put the time, effort and money into making it a success. I’m sure if there was a WOTR or a regional tiered competition, a series against France or a 3/4 N including England then if it is marketed well and bought into by the players and clubs then it could be built into something big

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Saints if they are being cheap*, Bolton or even larger if they were being ambitious, probably Wigan as somewhere down the middle.

*forgot the LSV...

I doubt Warrington, Widnes or Salford would be considered.

How many in Lancashire? 

[Dave T]

13 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

England v France mid-season has never broken 9k, and that's with the luxury of being played on the weekend. 

Roses matches in the summer era broke that twice with midweek fixtures. 

It wouldn't be a proper England camp though. It would be missing many of the top players from NRL, played at the intensity of a game with lower SL opposition. If you're not going to have a proper camp, might as well give more English players a go with a higher intensity.

England have played France in mid-season in the UK 3 times in the summer era and twice in France.

[Barley Mow]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How many in Lancashire? 

Let's not start this again.

Yes, there are different types of counties - the traditional ones, administrative ones, ceremonial ones, etc. What constitutes Lancashire is different for each of those types of county.

We all know that in the rugby league (in fact general sporting) context, a reference to Lancashire means the traditional county.

All of the grounds mentioned there are in the traditional county of Lancashire.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Let's not start this again.

Yes, there are different types of counties - the traditional ones, administrative ones, ceremonial ones, etc. What constitutes Lancashire is different for each of those types of county.

We all know that in the rugby league (in fact general sporting) context, a reference to Lancashire means the traditional county.

All of the grounds mentioned there are in the traditional county of Lancashire.

It isn't a technicality. We are trying to appeal to young fans, and most will have no links to Lancashire. It's little surprise it's old men and Yorkshire folk asking for this. 

Edited April 22 by Dave T

[Barley Mow]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It isn't a technicality. We are trying to appeal to young fans, and most will have no links to Lancashire. 

Lancashire County Cricket Club don't seem to have an issue. Everyone accepts they represent the traditional county.

[Dave T]

Just now, Barley Mow said:

Lancashire County Cricket Club don't seem to have an issue. Everyone accepts they represent the traditional county.

No, they have a brand that they have built for years. In the same way I support Man City despite not being from Manchester. 

But there is no brand in Lancs RL. 

[Barley Mow]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

No, they have a brand that they have built for years. In the same way I support Man City despite not being from Manchester. 

But there is no brand in Lancs RL. 

Their brand (like all first class county cricket teams) is the traditional country they represent.

If roses matches were to work, we would need to build the brand (the competition and the teams).

In terms of the teams, I'm happy to accept it looks an easier task for Yorks than Lancs.

Anyway, my point was simply that the stadiums mentioned are in Lancashire as generally understood in a sporting context. Although Wilderspool, being on the other side of the Mersey wasn't.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

No, they have a brand that they have built for years. In the same way I support Man City despite not being from Manchester. 

But there is no brand in Lancs RL. 

Looks like they'll just have to be called North West RL and include Cumbria...

(I'm being facetious obviously)