2024 attendance thread

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

16 minutes ago, up the robins said:

We had a dream, we are living that dream!.   IMG and the rfl are stealing that dream from other club's.

Aren't the Wakefield fans currently living a dream? I confess I'm an outsider who doesn't have ties to any pro club, but it seems to me as though there is still a dream available for clubs - it's just that the mechanisms for making that dream a reality have changed. If this season were just regular P&R, would that materially change anything in terms of attendances? Wakefield would still be seemingly walking away with it, and the other clubs would still be in the same position of battling for the other play-off spots or to avoid relegation. And given that performance-based relegation is still on the table for the Championship and yet attendances are generally down across the board, does this provide evidence that relegation does not interest supporters?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

And do you think this upsurge in Oldham support (which is good to see) would be happening if promotion from League 1 wasn't straight forward for finishing top or winning a play off?

Well it's happening for Wakefield in the Championship, so why wouldn't it be the case for Oldham?

[Roughyed Rats]

4 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

And do you think this upsurge in Oldham support (which is good to see) would be happening if promotion from League 1 wasn't straight forward for finishing top or winning a play off?

Certainly not to the same degree. 

[Gooleboy]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Well it's happening for Wakefield in the Championship, so why wouldn't it be the case for Oldham?

Because Wakefield know they will be going up whatever happens.

[Roughyed Rats]

2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Well it's happening for Wakefield in the Championship, so why wouldn't it be the case for Oldham?

If Oldham find themselves in Wakefield’s position this time next year, we will have no chance of promotion because 60% of the IMG criteria is averaged over 3 years. In Oldham’s case, that includes the legacy of the previous disastrous mismanagement. Wakefield on the other hand have the previous 2 years in SL. The difference is having tangible hope.

[Gooleboy]

1 minute ago, Roughyed Rats said:

If Oldham find themselves in Wakefield’s position this time next year, we will have no chance of promotion because 60% of the IMG criteria is averaged over 3 years. In Oldham’s case, that includes the legacy of the previous disastrous mismanagement. Wakefield on the other hand have the previous 2 years in SL. The difference is having tangible hope.

Spot on. A blind man on a galloping horse could see what is happening.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

22 minutes ago, up the robins said:

I don't think their can be any doubt that the excitement of potentially being promoted to super league by winning the championship increases crowds as opposed to winning a league and being told sorry you don't meet the criteria to go up.

Having spent many seasons struggling in the lower leagues with crowds at lows of a couple of thousand I will tell you now Hull kr would not of met any of the criteria needed for a shot at the big time and investment in the club would of been near on impossible, it was only once we made super league via promotion did our club manage to increase attendances significantly and attract investment with steady improvement off field over a period of time being in super league.

We are now sitting top of super league  (at time of writing) with one of the best home and away followings in super league.

Pre 2006 how many ppl running super league would have said Hull kr would of being a welcome addition to super league? None would be my guess. Hull can't sustain two clubs hull kr don't have a big enough fan base.

We had a dream, we are living that dream!.   IMG and the rfl are stealing that dream from other club's.

You had crowds in the early 2000's that were way lower than 2,000. A quick look on the rl project site shows average attendances of 1,700 with some crowds in the 1,100 - 1,200 range. That not withstanding I agree with everything else you've written. Very well said.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Because Wakefield know they will be going up whatever happens.

But why wouldn't that be the case for Oldham? They will score higher this season than Dewsbury on the IMG points so would replace them.

Secondly, why are Wakefield fans bothering attending this season, given that they know they are going up? Aren't all of their games now glorified friendlies? Yet they're posting huge crowds.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

If Oldham find themselves in Wakefield’s position this time next year, we will have no chance of promotion because 60% of the IMG criteria is averaged over 3 years. In Oldham’s case, that includes the legacy of the previous disastrous mismanagement. Wakefield on the other hand have the previous 2 years in SL. The difference is having tangible hope.

That is just proof that you can't judge anything by just one season, disasters and success can equally be a flash in the pan. Walking the walk means doing it for a while.

[Gooleboy]

Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

But why wouldn't that be the case for Oldham? They will score higher this season than Dewsbury on the IMG points so would replace them.

Secondly, why are Wakefield fans bothering attending this season, given that they know they are going up? Aren't all of their games now glorified friendlies? Yet they're posting huge crowds.

Because they are winning virtually every game, and they will be able to celebrate that at the end of the season as they will be promoted. Will the crowds hold up next season if they start to get beaten regularly? Remember all the Johnny come lateley's at Bradford. Where are they now?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

If Oldham find themselves in Wakefield’s position this time next year, we will have no chance of promotion because 60% of the IMG criteria is averaged over 3 years. In Oldham’s case, that includes the legacy of the previous disastrous mismanagement. Wakefield on the other hand have the previous 2 years in SL. The difference is having tangible hope.

So Oldham's crowds would drop? With P&R, how many teams have gone from winning League 1 to winning the Championship the following season? With the exception of Toronto who were splashing the cash, I would imagine it would take a club around 3 years to build and progress to being genuine promotion contenders under regular P&R. I must stress, I'm not a fan of any pro club, so am not emotionally invested in this stuff as much as the hardcore fans are, and therefore I'm not suggesting that I'm definitely right and you're definitely wrong - I genuinely don't know. It just seems that the timeframes for progression and promotion via the IMG system are not dissimilar to those via regular P&R, plus relegation is still on the table in the Championship. With only 4 points separating 6th from 13th, that doesn't appear to be encouraging fans through the turnstiles. I'm far from convinced that the changes in crowds are significant enough to be attributed to anything at this stage. Blaming drops in attendances solely on withdrawal of traditional promotion seems overly simplistic to me.

[Roughyed Rats]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

So Oldham's crowds would drop? With P&R, how many teams have gone from winning League 1 to winning the Championship the following season? With the exception of Toronto who were splashing the cash, I would imagine it would take a club around 3 years to build and progress to being genuine promotion contenders under regular P&R. I must stress, I'm not a fan of any pro club, so am not emotionally invested in this stuff as much as the hardcore fans are, and therefore I'm not suggesting that I'm definitely right and you're definitely wrong - I genuinely don't know. It just seems that the timeframes for progression and promotion via the IMG system are not dissimilar to those via regular P&R, plus relegation is still on the table in the Championship. With only 4 points separating 6th from 13th, that doesn't appear to be encouraging fans through the turnstiles. I'm far from convinced that the changes in crowds are significant enough to be attributed to anything at this stage. Blaming drops in attendances solely on withdrawal of traditional promotion seems overly simplistic to me.

In 3 years, IMG will either have gone (most likely) or moved to a closed shop franchising like they did in Basketball anyway. Obviously our attendances will improve next season but certainly not sure what’s sustainable given the current IMG set up.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Because they are winning virtually every game, and they will be able to celebrate that at the end of the season as they will be promoted. Will the crowds hold up next season if they start to get beaten regularly? Remember all the Johnny come lateley's at Bradford. Where are they now?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here - that winning matters irrespective of whether there is automatic promotion? And the prospect of relegation doesn't seem to be helping crowds, despite clubs from 6th down to 13th being potentially dragged into a relegation fight. Not sure what Bradford have to do with anything. Their off-field issues that contributed to their downfall are well-documented.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

6 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

In 3 years, IMG will either have gone (most likely) or moved to a closed shop franchising like they did in Basketball anyway.

I don't see that happening to be honest, but I understand why clubs may be fearful of it. I can see it potentially happening over a much longer timeframe, but I don't see the game getting 12 solid A grade clubs in that short period.

[Roughyed Rats]

Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I don't see that happening to be honest, but I understand why clubs may be fearful of it. I can see it potentially happening over a much longer timeframe, but I don't see the game getting 12 solid A grade clubs in that short period.

They didn’t in Basketball either; they just scrapped grading and went to closed shop franchising.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

They didn’t in Basketball either; they just scrapped grading and went to closed shop franchising.

I don't know how the governance of basketball works, but in the case of RL it will ultimately be the cubs who decide. In all honesty, I think a breakaway comp (e.g. if the NRL came in and started splashing the cash) is more likely than closed-shop franchising via the RFL/IMG.

[Roughyed Rats]

2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I don't know how the governance of basketball works, but in the case of RL it will ultimately be the cubs who decide. In all honesty, I think a breakaway comp (e.g. if the NRL came in and started splashing the cash) is more likely than closed-shop franchising via the RFL/IMG.

Same end point of closed shop franchising. Exactly the same governance existed in Basketball. It took them just 4 years into a 10 year deal to get there.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

19 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Same end point of closed shop franchising. Exactly the same governance existed in Basketball. It took them just 4 years into a 10 year deal to get there.

Yeah I just don't see it happening here - in 4 years' time you can say "I told you so"!

I think what is more likely is that the NRL starts a breakaway league and the big boys jump ship and join that.

[Roughyed Rats]

Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Yeah I just don't see it happening here - in 4 years' time you can say "I told you so"!

I think what is more likely is that the NRL starts a breakaway league and the big boys jump ship and join that.

Over 2 years in already. Either way, same result. 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think a better question is whether those clubs who are increasing crowds are doing it due to increased off field effort and performance. 

History has generally shown that it's off field stuff that grows crowds materially - and we have seen that recently with Hull KR, Leigh and Wakey - I don't know enough about Oldham. 

Derek Beaumont declared his intention for the direction he would take the club before IMG came along, he supplemented that with the identity and rebranding of the club again nothing to do with IMG, I don't why you are always reluctant to admit that improved attendances is due to on field performance Hull KR, Leigh and Wakey all have better on field performance levels than previous, a glaring exception to the rule is your club this season Dave, where are those recent lapsed fans now you are getting better results? albeit you did very well virtually giving away a good number of tickets for the Catalan game.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Either way, same result. 

Same result, but the NRL thing would be a completely different mechanism and therefore have zero bearing on what's currently happening. For the record, I don't think an NRL breakaway league is likely. I just think it's more likely than the clubs voting en masse for a closed shop.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Derek Beaumont declared his intention for the direction he would take the club before IMG came along, he supplemented that with the identity and rebranding of the club again nothing to do with IMG

Doesn't that therefore support IMG's criteria? I.e. they've selected criteria that reflect good practice that clubs need to demonstrate.

[Roughyed Rats]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Same result, but the NRL thing would be a completely different mechanism and therefore have zero bearing on what's currently happening. For the record, I don't think an NRL breakaway league is likely. I just think it's more likely than the clubs voting en masse for a closed shop.

They voted for it last time. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

They voted for it last time. 

It wasn't a closed shop last time

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Derek Beaumont declared his intention for the direction he would take the club before IMG came along, he supplemented that with the identity and rebranding of the club again nothing to do with IMG, I don't why you are always reluctant to admit that improved attendances is due to on field performance Hull KR, Leigh and Wakey all have better on field performance levels than previous, a glaring exception to the rule is your club this season Dave, where are those recent lapsed fans now you are getting better results? albeit you did very well virtually giving away a good number of tickets for the Catalan game.

I'm not making this about IMG, I purposely made it about sorting stuff out off field - and pretty much every example you can think off saw huge progress off field whether that was a new ground, new owners, investment, marketing efforts, rebrands etc. 

It's not a controversial view that sort yourself out off field and you'll get the benefits. These can help weather some bad results.