This year's Championship

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58 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

    1999/2000 Dewsbury finished top of the Championship and in the play off beat Leigh with a late drop goal.Therefore Dewsbury qualified to join SL on the field.But were denied a place because their ground was not up to the required standard.

Ok.. .So like I said, Dewsbury has never been a SL team.

[Click]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Grading not funding and that whether we'd be in L1 regardless of playing performance.

Why would Dewsbury ever be in L1 from grading? I don't understand the thought behind this whatsoever. 

Or perhaps if a club with the history of Dewsbury is graded so low that they end up in L1 that benefactor clearly has been throwing his money away for 20 + years.

[JonM]

5 minutes ago, Click said:

Why would Dewsbury ever be in L1 from grading? I don't understand the thought behind this whatsoever. 

Or perhaps if a club with the history of Dewsbury is graded so low that they end up in L1 that benefactor clearly has been throwing his money away for 20 + years.

They're graded C on the provisional gradings, in 27th place. *If* the decision had been made to assign places in the Championship and L1 on the gradings rather than via promotion/ relegation, Dewsbury would definitely have been in L1. As Mr. Sawyer is an on-course bookie, I assume he's pretty good at maths  

[Click]

1 minute ago, JonM said:

They're graded C on the provisional gradings, in 27th place. *If* the decision had been made to assign places in the Championship and L1 on the gradings rather than via promotion/ relegation, Dewsbury would definitely have been in L1. As Mr. Sawyer is an on-course bookie, I assume he's pretty good at maths  

I am not sure on who is where in the gradings. If 27th is all Dewsbury managed, then they should look at their own clubs issues, rather than staring at IMG gradings and wondering "what if". As 27th is pretty pitiful.

[The Mighty Trin]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Living in Wakefield there's certainly a buzz around the team this year. Not sure that would have been the case if they'd stayed in SL. Think this season has been a big boost to Trinity. 

Admittedly they've got a new stand courtesy of the council and a new benefactor putting money in which would have helped, but they wouldn't be anywhere near a trophy if they'd stayed in SL. 

How many Trinity fans would have preferred another season in the bottom half of SL compared to the season they've had in the Championship?

Credit to you for sticking with your home town club mate. You sound like you want to change alliances and watch 'The Trin' lol

Haha only kidding. Liked going through to Dewsbury on a Fri night remember going to see you's against Fev & Workington about 97 got in fir £2 you could buy a ice cold Skol for a £1 at the ground and bus to my Grans from Ackworth was probably only a few quid...decent night out for less than a tenner. How times have changed now I'm paying £25 to watch the Trin, nearly £100 on train fares and god help us when i have to pay for my son  

Wish Dewsbury the best, remember whatever ut is you got against us we not all bad you know.

[Gav Wilson]

12 minutes ago, JonM said:

They're graded C on the provisional gradings, in 27th place. *If* the decision had been made to assign places in the Championship and L1 on the gradings rather than via promotion/ relegation, Dewsbury would definitely have been in L1. As Mr. Sawyer is an on-course bookie, I assume he's pretty good at maths  

Right, but it wasn't. 

[JonM]

2 minutes ago, Click said:

If 27th is all Dewsbury managed, then they should look at their own clubs issues, rather than staring at IMG gradings and wondering "what if". As 27th is pretty pitiful.

Right, but it doesn't scream out "spend my money on buying us a better team in an attempt to stay up" which is what Mr. Sawyer might have done in years gone by?

[JonM]

Just now, Gav Wilson said:

Right, but it wasn't. 

Was it not still a possibility at the end of last season though? The restructuring was only agreed in March. Dewsbury came up from League 1 and would've needed to spend quite a lot to bring in players to stay up.

I have no insight into what the thinking was at all - just seems a bit off to criticise a chairman who has spent a lot of his own money into the club over 20 years over the fact that he hasn't put even more in this year.

[Griff]

50 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Is it 2 or more then?

Yes.

[Click]

25 minutes ago, JonM said:

Right, but it doesn't scream out "spend my money on buying us a better team in an attempt to stay up" which is what Mr. Sawyer might have done in years gone by?

Perhaps Mr Sawyer should have spent any of his money during the last 20 years on anything else other than paying for PT rugby league players. Then perhaps they wouldn't be in such a position.

[Wakefield Ram]

31 minutes ago, JonM said:

Was it not still a possibility at the end of last season though? The restructuring was only agreed in March. Dewsbury came up from League 1 and would've needed to spend quite a lot to bring in players to stay up.

I have no insight into what the thinking was at all - just seems a bit off to criticise a chairman who has spent a lot of his own money into the club over 20 years over the fact that he hasn't put even more in this year.

Correct. A lot of contracts were being agreed last summer/autumn and yes Dewsbury would have had to spend a lot to have a chance of staying up. 

Mark Sawyer has put his money in for over 20+ years. There's not been any winding up orders, players not being paid, bills not being paid etc ..and the club has its own ground and some excellent facilities.

But not paying your bills and your players doesn't seem to matter in IMG grading. 

It's not that many years ago I remember Leigh turning up with just 13 players when Beaumont decided to stop paying the players.

Edited July 24 by Wakefield Ram

[JonM]

9 minutes ago, Click said:

Perhaps Mr Sawyer should have spent any of his money during the last 20 years on anything else other than paying for PT rugby league players. Then perhaps they wouldn't be in such a position.

They seem to me to be in a decent position relative to many RL clubs. Suspect the likes of Bradford, Swinton, Sheffield or London would be pretty happy to own a stadium like Crown Flatt or whatever it's called this year? Clearly money has been spent on things other than players, as there's been new terracing and such built in the time that I've been going there.

[Wakefield Ram]

46 minutes ago, The Mighty Trin said:

Credit to you for sticking with your home town club mate. You sound like you want to change alliances and watch 'The Trin' lol

Haha only kidding. Liked going through to Dewsbury on a Fri night remember going to see you's against Fev & Workington about 97 got in fir £2 you could buy a ice cold Skol for a £1 at the ground and bus to my Grans from Ackworth was probably only a few quid...decent night out for less than a tenner. How times have changed now I'm paying £25 to watch the Trin, nearly £100 on train fares and god help us when i have to pay for my son  

Wish Dewsbury the best, remember whatever ut is you got against us we not all bad you know.

Just think that the year in the Championship has revitalised the club and its support more than if they'd stayed in SL. Relegation has given Trinity a chance to re-group, win trophies get to Wembley etc...

[Wakefield Ram]

1 hour ago, Click said:

Ok.. .So like I said, Dewsbury has never been a SL team.

Never suggested we ever would be. But Leigh, Castleford, Hull KR, London, Wakefield have all been in the Championship. 

It will become near impossible for Championship clubs to have higher gradings than SL clubs. 

[Marauder]

12 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Correct. A lot of contracts were being agreed last summer/autumn and yes Dewsbury would have had to spend a lot to have a chance of staying up. 

Mark Sawyer has put his money in for over 20+ years. There's not been any winding up orders, players not being paid, bills not being paid etc ..and the club has its own ground and some excellent facilities.

But not paying your bills and your players doesn't seem to matter in IMG grading. 

It's not that many years ago I remember Leigh turning up with just 13 players when Beaumont decided to stop paying the players.

The Dewsbury area produces players as well.

[Click]

2 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Never suggested we ever would be. But Leigh, Castleford, Hull KR, London, Wakefield have all been in the Championship. 

It will become near impossible for Championship clubs to have higher gradings than SL clubs. 

The whole point of IMG is to try and create stronger clubs across the leagues with the idea that hopefully some of them will grow enough to become fully functioning and thriving SL sides. 

Dewsbury has been pretty much on the same level for the last 20 years, and they will most likely be on that same level for the coming 20 years.  

It is only your opinion that it will become near impossible for Championship clubs to have high gradings than SL clubs. 

London have spent the majority of our existence within SL over the last 30 years, but our grading is atrocious. Being in SL is only one part of the puzzle, actually utilizing what that brings in is what matters. 

[Wakefield Ram]

25 minutes ago, Click said:

The whole point of IMG is to try and create stronger clubs across the leagues with the idea that hopefully some of them will grow enough to become fully functioning and thriving SL sides. 

Dewsbury has been pretty much on the same level for the last 20 years, and they will most likely be on that same level for the coming 20 years.  

It is only your opinion that it will become near impossible for Championship clubs to have high gradings than SL clubs. 

London have spent the majority of our existence within SL over the last 30 years, but our grading is atrocious. Being in SL is only one part of the puzzle, actually utilizing what that brings in is what matters. 

I have worked with consultants for decades. They have delivered exactly what the big clubs want, which is immunity from relegation under the guise of gradings.

The weightings of the gradings is arbitrary, believe me I've been involved in this sort of categorisation many times. You change the weightings and get whatever result you want.

Given SL clubs have much higher revenue then it will be much easier to gain points on electronic advertising boards, social media output etc...and it will become increasingly difficult if not impossible for clubs outside SL to exceed them. At worst the SL club could divert money into gaining more likes/tweets.

There is no evidence that giving SL clubs immunity from relegation will make the game stronger or even the SL clubs stronger. 

As far as I am aware, there's no plan to increase the number of SL clubs. If that were the case, then it would be good. But it isn't. 

Edited July 24 by Wakefield Ram

[Click]

Just now, Wakefield Ram said:

I have worked with consultants for decades. They have delivered exactly what the big clubs want, which is immunity from relegation under the guise of gradings.

The weightings of the gradings is arbitrary, believe me I've been involved in this sort of categorisation many times. You change the weightings and get whatever result you want.

Given SL clubs have much higher revenue then it will be much easier to gain points on electronic advertising boards, social media output etc...and it will become increasingly difficult if not impossible for clubs outside SL to exceed them. At worst the SL club could divert money into gaining more likes/tweets.

There is no evidence that giving SL clubs immunity from relegation will make the game stronger or even the SL clubs stronger. 

That's the thing - I don't. Just because you've apparently been involved in "this sort of categorization many times" doesn't relate to IMG and Rugby League. It's juts your opinion, not a fact.

I don't really want to keep this conversation going down this route as it isn't too relevant to this topic, rather than the IMG one.

People act like the gap between the top of the championship and the bottom of SL is huge, it really isn't. If a club wants to move up through the leagues to get to SL, they know exactly what they need to invest in, and what areas they need to concentrate on. 

For years the clubs in SL and outside have neglected even the most basic of things that every professional sport should embrace. Things like Social Media which the majority of clubs are still miles behind others, and others in different sports. These clubs in SL that aren't too different to clubs in Championship - they've mostly been run like ###### for the last 20 years, but now IMG and grading is in, everyone thinks that all these clubs are going to suddenly realise they're part of a professional outfit. 

If a club wants to grow and get into SL, the gates aren't shut. They just need to have some building blocks behind them.

[Griff]

5 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Grading not funding and that whether we'd be in L1 regardless of playing performance.

Unlikely.  Playing performance will continue to decide who's in the Championship or League 1.

But I'm sure your chairman knows that.  Maybe he just likes the travelling.

[Gav Wilson]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

Was it not still a possibility at the end of last season though? The restructuring was only agreed in March. Dewsbury came up from League 1 and would've needed to spend quite a lot to bring in players to stay up.

I have no insight into what the thinking was at all - just seems a bit off to criticise a chairman who has spent a lot of his own money into the club over 20 years over the fact that he hasn't put even more in this year.

The structure was agreed in March aye, but whatever the outcome of that Dewsbury knew what they needed to do to become a competitive Championship team - Doncaster have managed it.

Sawyer can spend whatever amount of money he likes, its his prerogative. To suggest he hasn't spent because of IMG though is disingenuous. 

[JonM]

29 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

The structure was agreed in March aye, but whatever the outcome of that Dewsbury knew what they needed to do to become a competitive Championship team - Doncaster have managed it.

Sawyer can spend whatever amount of money he likes, its his prerogative. To suggest he hasn't spent because of IMG though is disingenuous. 

Doncaster, to be fair, have clearly spent a decent bit of money, and did so right after winning the play-off. I think they'd signed Briscoe & Luke Hall from Fev, Pauli Pauli, Reece Lyne and a couple from Cas and Sheffield within weeks. 

Equally, it makes sense for some clubs e.g. London in SL, to not waste the owner's money on a probably fruitless attempt to avoid finishing last in the table. I'd suggest that say Toulouse & Widnes are other examples of clubs who look to be operating with cheaper squads this year and are perhaps saving their powder for a season when it might make a difference.

In the case of Dewsbury, they put out a perfectly sensible statement in October last year acknowledging the provisional grading, expressing the view that the system gave them clear areas to improve infrastructure and that they would be working hard to become category 'B' by the end of 2024 and telling supporters how they could help. That seems like a rational response from Mark Sawyer and the one the system is supposed to encourage. Compare and contrast with say Keighley?

 

[Gav Wilson]

5 minutes ago, JonM said:

Doncaster, to be fair, have clearly spent a decent bit of money, and did so right after winning the play-off. I think they'd signed Briscoe & Luke Hall from Fev, Pauli Pauli, Reece Lyne and a couple from Cas and Sheffield within weeks. 

Equally, it makes sense for some clubs e.g. London in SL, to not waste the owner's money on a probably fruitless attempt to avoid finishing last in the table. I'd suggest that say Toulouse & Widnes are other examples of clubs who look to be operating with cheaper squads this year and are perhaps saving their powder for a season when it might make a difference.

In the case of Dewsbury, they put out a perfectly sensible statement in October last year acknowledging the provisional grading, expressing the view that the system gave them clear areas to improve infrastructure and that they would be working hard to become category 'B' by the end of 2024 and telling supporters how they could help. That seems like a rational response from Mark Sawyer and the one the system is supposed to encourage. Compare and contrast with say Keighley?

 

Fair points absolutely. I don't think it would have taken that much to make Dewsbury competitive in the Championship though. Its a shame they didn't seem to even try. 

[The Mighty Trin]

6 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Just think that the year in the Championship has revitalised the club and its support more than if they'd stayed in SL. Relegation has given Trinity a chance to re-group, win trophies get to Wembley etc...

Absolutely round about 96/97 ish Dewsbury were getting just as much support as we did if not better. Terrible crowds back then for us. Remember being at home to York in front of just 800+ @BV. Be interesting to see if some of our fans will stay on board if we're going through a bad patch next year. Would like to think they will remain on board, time will tell. If we we do get into SL next year, finishing mid table and then something to build on after that we hope  

[Wakefield Ram]

3 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

Fair points absolutely. I don't think it would have taken that much to make Dewsbury competitive in the Championship though. Its a shame they didn't seem to even try. 

If you're going to spend, you need to go whole hog and spend enough to definitely stay up not just being competitive. Maybe £100,000? No point spending an extra £50,000 and getting relegated. And no point spending £100,000 and going into L1 anyway based on IMG grading. 

Mark Sawyer said at the beginning of the season that the rugby side was budgeted to lose £150,000 this season. This was the same as £150,000 loss in L1. 

This will be offset in part by off field income but Mark Sawyer has been doing this 20+ years so think he knows what he's doing. 

Despite spending a lot more, York were next to bottom till very recently. 

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

9 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Living in Wakefield there's certainly a buzz around the team this year. Not sure that would have been the case if they'd stayed in SL. Think this season has been a big boost to Trinity. 

Admittedly they've got a new stand courtesy of the council and a new benefactor putting money in which would have helped, but they wouldn't be anywhere near a trophy if they'd stayed in SL. 

How many Trinity fans would have preferred another season in the bottom half of SL compared to the season they've had in the Championship?

The east stand, north stand improvements, new pitch, floodlights and big screen came courtesy of directors, sponsors and pay off from the Newmarket developers as well you probably know.

 

Yes I wanted relegation but still cheered us on at Leigh in that epic golden point loss.