Pacific Championships 2024

[Exiled Wiganer]

Helping France ought to be a very high priority for the game up here. We need to send the IMG intern on a trip to the Côte d’Azur. Our goal should be to move heaven 
 

If the concern is around quality of opposition, we could play a French plus guests team. See if we could add Field and Vaughan etc (plus even the best Welsh players?) to a mostly French selection. We have a very long history of Other Nations selections. 
 

Of course, finance is an issue. But the prize is so great if we can move the French/NH opposition to england up a notch. 

[Dave T]

A major challenge with France is that it won't be fixed by just playing games against them. Having competitive, commercially attractive games is the outcome really, not the groundwork. Same when people talk about us playing regular games against Scotland, Wales and Ireland as a solution.

Sure, it may provide some attention and could be useful tactically, but we're not addressing the root causes of why these teams are weak by just staging games. It's what we have done for the last few decades really.

France really does need a developed plan. If it's that the pinnacle of their club game is in the UK pyramid then it needs some proper thought - how many teams, which divisions etc? We also then need to look at player quotas and development pathways and the like. Funding also needs looking at, as well as governance (the RFL or RLComm are not the French governing body). 

Getting these right are going to add far more value than staging terrible events in the middle of the year. I think its a bit of a disgrace that Samoa and England only played two Tests this autumn and they didn't play France. This is where France should be getting the big games.

[StandOffHalf]

11 hours ago, Dave T said:

The Aussies have walked away from test matches that get up to 30k people with a game between 1st and 2nd in the world.

If the English have walked away, it's from a match that the French staged as a Fev pre-match entertainment event.

It boils down to the same thing.

You don't help international RL by not playing games.

[Exiled Wiganer]

4 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

It boils down to the same thing.

You don't help international RL by not playing games.

We are playing more games overall, even if the Kangaroos are playing fewer than in some years. Samoa, PNG, Tonga, Fiji and Cooks get at least 3 games each in front of good crowds, at a historically high standard. And the bulk of their players come from the NRL. 

Edited November 15, 2024 by Exiled Wiganer

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

We are playing more games overall, even if the Kangaroos are playing fewer than in some years. Samoa, PNG, Tonga, Fiji and Cooks get at least 3 games each in front of good crowds, at a historically high standard. And the bulk of their players come from the NRL. 

No matter how many times you repeat this, and then disappear for a while every time you get pulled up on it, it doesn't make it true.

[StandOffHalf]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

We are playing more games overall, even if the Kangaroos are playing fewer than in some years. Samoa, PNG, Tonga, Fiji and Cooks get at least 3 games each in front of good crowds, at a historically high standard. And the bulk of their players come from the NRL. 

I don't think that's true, but my point was in relation to England not playing France in 2025.

I have been critical of the prevailing anti-internationalism of Australian power-brokers. I have to be critical of the English stance under Wane as well.

[Dave T]

10 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

It boils down to the same thing.

You don't help international RL by not playing games.

Again, far too simplistic a view. We don't just match the Kiwis up with Canada and say this will help the international game. 

The France game this year was harmful to the sport.

[Dave T]

10 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

We are playing more games overall, even if the Kangaroos are playing fewer than in some years. Samoa, PNG, Tonga, Fiji and Cooks get at least 3 games each in front of good crowds, at a historically high standard. And the bulk of their players come from the NRL. 

This is not true. Why are you repeating things that have been pointed out as incorrect.

When you say these teams get 3 games at least, what you really mean is 2 or 3 games. Three of the five you named only played 2 games this year, that's very different to 'at least 3'.

But I can understand why you are so positive about the international game now, because there are loads of imaginary games being staged that you are counting.

 

Edited November 16, 2024 by Dave T

[sam4731]

11 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

It boils down to the same thing.

You don't help international RL by not playing games.

 

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Again, far too simplistic a view. We don't just match the Kiwis up with Canada and say this will help the international game. 

The France game this year was harmful to the sport.

It could also be not true at all too. If we didn't play international rugby league for 20 years but in that time, full time professional leagues were set up in 30 countries, we'd have a far more competitive landscape when it returned.

[Jonty58]

I blame the NRL and Australia for all that is wrong in the International game today.

[Father Gascoigne]

3 hours ago, Jonty58 said:

I blame the NRL and Australia for all that is wrong in the International game today.

That'd be fairer if Australia wasn't a 12-time winner of the World Cup, notching up nine of the past 10. There's an element of six of one, half a dozen of the other when deciding where to apportion blame for the international game. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Father Gascoigne said:

That'd be fairer if Australia wasn't a 12-time winner of the World Cup, notching up nine of the past 10. There's an element of six of one, half a dozen of the other when deciding where to apportion blame for the international game. 

Jonty wasn't being serious.

But despite the fact that that the Aussies have been dominant, we still have tens of thousands of people prepared to pay good money to watch the Aussies beat England. We'll have sponsors too and a tv deal.

Don't believe people when they try and tell you there is no interest in international RL.

Edited November 16, 2024 by Dave T

[StandOffHalf]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

Again, far too simplistic a view. We don't just match the Kiwis up with Canada and say this will help the international game. 

The France game this year was harmful to the sport.

The Kiwis have no history of playing Canada whatsoever though.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

20 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

It boils down to the same thing.

You don't help international RL by not playing games.

You don't get international RL by putting on uneven and uninspiring events that fans aren't willing to pay to see either. That's actually more harmful than not putting a game on.

[StandOffHalf]

3 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

You don't get international RL by putting on uneven and uninspiring events that fans aren't willing to pay to see either. That's actually more harmful than not putting a game on.

I disagree that it is more harmful, but it certainly should be put on better.

[sam4731]

6 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

The Kiwis have no history of playing Canada whatsoever though.

So, has generating new matchups in the international game finished now? In 1907, England and Australia had no history of playing either. To have history, it has to be created.

[StandOffHalf]

32 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

So, has generating new matchups in the international game finished now? In 1907, England and Australia had no history of playing either. To have history, it has to be created.

The more internationals the better, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not one of those in favour of canning them mid-season.

[Exiled Wiganer]

On 16/11/2024 at 08:28, Dave T said:

This is not true. Why are you repeating things that have been pointed out as incorrect.

When you say these teams get 3 games at least, what you really mean is 2 or 3 games. Three of the five you named only played 2 games this year, that's very different to 'at least 3'.

But I can understand why you are so positive about the international game now, because there are loads of imaginary games being staged that you are counting.

 

I will take some time to prove my point later on. You appear completely deranged, lashing out madly. 

Edited November 17, 2024 by Exiled Wiganer

[MatthewWoody]

Sydney Roosters prop Spencer Leniu believes an annual three-Test series between Samoa and Tonga could become State of Origin-like and sell out stadiums.

[Hopie]

The NRL appear to have driven international rugby league down to the point that hey have had to come in and "save" it, by replacing it with "international NRL". It feels like a no brainer to tap into the momentum that Samoa and Tonga are building in the other hemisphere, but the shadow of Origin looms large and the NRL have taken control for a reason.

[Sports Prophet]

From the ABC website:

Tonga's Pacific Championships success raises questions about International Rugby League's tier system

For decades, there was an understood hierarchy in men's rugby league that went something like: Australia, New Zealand, England, a bit of daylight, then everyone else.

That was borne out in the international results, with the Kangaroos, Kiwis or Brits the only teams to feature in World Cup finals from 1970 to 2017. Australia, England and New Zealand are currently the only federations in International Rugby League's Tier 1.

They remain the only teams to be crowned men's or women's world champions — Australia winning 15 times, New Zealand on four occasions, and Great Britain three times, but not since 1972.

But, when Andrew Fifita and Jason Taumalolo opted to turn out for the Mate Ma'a more than half a decade ago, the course of international rugby league changed.

A burst of pride and power was injected into the Pacific nations, with Tonga and Samoa the most immediate beneficiaries.

It culminated in Tonga going within three points of reaching the 2017 World Cup final, followed by a famous win over Australia at Eden Park in 2019, and was hammered home when Samoa went all the way to the World Cup final in 2022.

We saw it again this year as Tonga threatened Australia in the Pacific Championships opener, beat New Zealand in a thriller, and came within a converted try of the Kangaroos in the final on Sunday afternoon.

The side that lost the men's decider 20-14 was littered with world-class talent like Addin Fonua-Blake, Taumalolo and Eli Katoa. But also scattered through the side were four State of Origin players — Haumole Olakau'atu, Keaon Koloamatangi, Felise Kaufusi and Daniel Tupou.

When Samoa reached the final of the World Cup in 2022, there were nine players who had (or have since) played Origin in the line-up.

It's a benefit not afforded to the likes of England New Zealand.

Victor Radley bid farewell to his Origin chances when he pledged allegiance to England, the country of his father's birth, for the World Cup in 2022.

But Tino Fa'asuamaleaui and Payne Haas could commit to Samoa while still turning out for the Maroons and Blues, and New Zealand-born former Kangaroo Kaufusi can play for Queensland and Tonga in the same year without having to make a difficult choice.

While it's an undeniable boon to Origin and the international game, and no sensible person will bemoan 12-time world champions Australia losing players to the Pacific Islands, there is a risk of an uneven playing ground for New Zealand in particular.

"New Zealand are worried about that," International Rugby League (IRL) chairman Troy Grant told ABC Sport.

"The challenge for New Zealand is to continue to work in-country to make sure those who are just Kiwi eligible are plentiful and of the quality to play."

When Tonga made its first run to the World Cup semifinals back in 2017 (when Fiji also beat New Zealand to reach the final four) they did so on the back of Taumalolo and a slew of other former Kiwis.

Taumalolo made his international debut for Tonga back in 2013 after 20-odd NRL appearances and played in that year's World Cup for the Mate Ma'a, who failed to get out of the group stage.

Once his career hit its stride the following year, Taumalolo switched to New Zealand, the country of his birth, for perhaps the best years of his career before eventually changing back to Tonga.

It's a common pathway — James Tedesco and Mitchell Moses played for Italy and Lebanon before earning their Australian caps, and Xavier Coates copped flak for doing something similar when he jumped from Papua New Guinea to the Kangaroos.

Players are coming up in a world now where the assumption is no longer that playing for New Zealand, Australia or England are the only paths to a World Cup final.

Isaiya Katoa was born and raised in New Zealand and moved to Australia before he was a teenager but, like more than 80,000 people living across the ditch according to the last census, he identifies as Tongan. He could have played for the Kiwis, but the 20-year-old has instead become the latest game-changer for Tonga while New Zealand had to call Shaun Johnson out of retirement to play in the Pacific Championships.

And who could blame him? Where's the incentive to play for New Zealand if a player's connection is as strong to another Pasifika nation, they are just as much of a force at major events, and you can retain the chance to play Origin?

"There are those that have dual and sometimes eligibility for four or five nations because of their family heritage and history," Grant said.

"That's the way I think is healthy for us that we have that ability for heritage to be recognised because there is a strong link.

"The system as it is now has obviously helped a lot because the Samoan and Tongan boys who get that Origin experience … and elect to play for their heritage nations, rather than the Kangaroos, lifts the standards and raises the competitiveness, and international rugby league is a winner as a result.

"Long term, New Zealand do have to guard against that. They are conscious of that and we do talk to them, but they were the [Pacific] champions last year. So that's the wonderful thing about how competitive it is."

There are benefits in terms of finances and influence for the countries' governing bodies, but when the top teams are the best they've ever been, that may not be enough to push players to give up the chance to play Origin and represent your family.

Will Tonga and Samoa become Tier 1 teams?

It doesn't look likely any time soon, according to Grant.

The IRL tier system isn't just about on-field results or elite player quality — Scotland and Ireland were in the top tier until the last annual audit. It's about the quality of domestic competition, junior pathways and participation in the spot in those countries.

Both Samoa and Tonga face difficulties on that front, not least of which boils down to population.

About 220,000 people live in Samoa and just a tick over 100,000 in Tonga; half of which are under 25, as many people leave the Pacific nations to seek employment abroad.

Tonga National Rugby League was also expelled from the IRL in 2020, and only this year did Tonga Rugby League XIII, led by Parliament Speaker Lord Fakafanua, regain control as the official governing body in the country. And Samoa has a "brand new" governing body that came in two years ago around their run to the 2022 World Cup final.

"They've got some legacy issues to overcome, but they're well on the way to becoming a force to be reckoned with in the future," Grant said.

He admitted it could be difficult economically for smaller island nations to establish the sort of domestic pathways required to be considered Tier 1 teams, but the current system is working a treat for them.

The ability for the stars like Jarome Luai, Stephen Crichton, David Fifita and Olakau'atu to turn out for Samoa and Tonga without having to forego Origin eligibility will make the interstate showpiece and the 2026 World Cup infinitely more competitive and entertaining events.

"The competition's getting levelled out," Grant said, adding the women's game will see a similar shift as the NRLW grows.

"The big gap the Jillaroos have on just about everyone at the moment will close in time, and that's only good for the game.

"I think … there's an opportunity for a new world order at [the 2026] World Cup.

"It could be the strongest Samoan, Tongan and Fijian teams you've ever seen before. Who knows what's going to happen?"

But if the balance of power continues to tilt away from the 'Big Three' of Australia, New Zealand and England, the conversation in 2030 could have a very different tone.

 

[StandOffHalf]

The NRL want to keep Origin as the pinnacle. That's why internationals are consigned to the post-season.

TL;DR

Where's the incentive to play for New Zealand if a player's connection is as strong to another Pasifika nation, they are just as much of a force at major events, and you can retain the chance to play Origin?

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

The NRL want to keep Origin as the pinnacle. That's why internationals are consigned to the post-season.

TL;DR

Where's the incentive to play for New Zealand if a player's connection is as strong to another Pasifika nation, they are just as much of a force at major events, and you can retain the chance to play Origin?

The big thing is, do people who have enjoyed the rise of Pacific RL really want all these dual eligible (SOO and Tonga/Samoa) to have to choose between the two of played at the same time mid season, because in days gone by, SOO was the one which was picked.

If the best PI players are playing SOO, what does that do for Pacific test rugby played in a similar window to SOO?

The pay day for SOO is $50,000 a game IIRC. A Pacific test match was paying around $15,000. Expect that to have some influence on the decision making too.

[Damien]

27 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

The big thing is, do people who have enjoyed the rise of Pacific RL really want all these dual eligible (SOO and Tonga/Samoa) to have to choose between the two of played at the same time mid season, because in days gone by, SOO was the one which was picked.

If the best PI players are playing SOO, what does that do for Pacific test rugby played in a similar window to SOO?

The pay day for SOO is $50,000 a game IIRC. A Pacific test match was paying around $15,000. Expect that to have some influence on the decision making too.

If we had a 3 international matches at the same time as SOO you don't know what they would pick. Even as it was some players like Tevita Pangai Junior had chosen a single Pacific Test match over SOO. Very few players are going to choose a random 1 match that may or may not happen versus a sure thing 3 match series. I don't blame them for that. Lets not though pretend that this was ever an equitable choice or comparing like for like.

Anyway even if the best players weren't playing, more international games is better than less and it allows international teams to develop other players and increase their player depth and get combinations working. People say we should play France mid season without many of our best players for similar reasons, but then for some reason shouldn't play blockbuster matches with what would still be very good teams and players. If anyone needs more games to compete with Australia come the end of season its the PI Nations and NZ, otherwise the cards will always be stacked in Australia's favour.

Tonga still got 20,766, 23,634, 17,802 for the 4 mid season tests they had since the 2017 RLWC so the demand from fans was certainly there. If we got those crowds for an end of season test and it suited the NRL then they would be crowing about them.

[Father Gascoigne]

33 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

The big thing is, do people who have enjoyed the rise of Pacific RL really want all these dual eligible (SOO and Tonga/Samoa) to have to choose between the two of played at the same time mid season, because in days gone by, SOO was the one which was picked.

If the best PI players are playing SOO, what does that do for Pacific test rugby played in a similar window to SOO?

The pay day for SOO is $50,000 a game IIRC. A Pacific test match was paying around $15,000. Expect that to have some influence on the decision making too.

I'd imagine that to be the primary factor. 

It's funny to compare it to football, where they earn peanuts--in the low thousands even for England internationals--for an international appearance, and even that gets donated to charity. 

Now consider the case of someone like James Tamou. Would he have chosen to play for Australia--having represented the Kiwis--had the opportunity to play in a SOO (and pocketing the match fees that come with it) not been a carrot on a stick for an elite player of his ilk?

If SOO had much stricter eligibility rules, and a match-fee structure similar to football, there'd be significantly less incentive for players born outside the country to choose to play for the Kangaroos in order to play Origin.