Swinton Rebrand?

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

There's little subjective about if it's digital and social media friendly. When it comes across as a blurry mess surely that isn't a good thing.

At least they got rid of the Manchester part like I say.

[LeytherRob]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

The point being it really does need to satisfy both to be considered good design. Especially in a professional setting. As Ive said earlier you can subjectively like the look of something that is objectively poorly designed.

Not really, since resolution and the artistic choices are not mutually exclusive. Any logo, especially sports crests, can be put into a poor resolution or a high one which will make it objectively work or not work at a larger size(unless your logo is a blank square that is).

[gingerjon]

11 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

At least they got rid of the Manchester part like I say.

A subjective opinion.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

A subjective opinion.

One shared by most Swinton fans I think who are the most important stakeholder there.

Edited November 13, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[Chrispmartha]

10 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Not really, since resolution and the artistic choices are not mutually exclusive. Any logo, especially sports crests, can be put into a poor resolution or a high one which will make it objectively work or not work at a larger size(unless your logo is a blank square that is).

Again you're showing your lack of understanding. It's not about being 'put' into a poor or high resolution, a logo that doesn't work in the situations it needs to be placed is a badly designed logo whatever resolution it's designed in. Look at the Swinton one, it clearly doesn't work when used as a Social Media icon, it's poorly designed because it doesn't work in all the applications it needs to work in.

Logo's really shouldn't be design in a 'resolution' anyway, they should be vector based and either have different versions for different applications or be designed in a way that it works in every application it needs to go on. 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Again you're showing your lack of understanding. It's not about being 'put' into a poor or high resolution, a logo that doesn't work in the situations it needs to be placed is a badly designed logo whatever resolution it's designed in. Look at the Swinton one, it clearly doesn't work when used as a Social Media icon, it's poorly designed because it doesn't work in all the applications it needs to work in.

Logo's really shouldn't be design in a 'resolution' anyway, they should be vector based and either have different versions for different applications or be designed in a way that it works in every application it needs to go on. 

Here we see that it works in the bio but not in the feed.

 

[Damien]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Here we see that it works in the bio but not in the feed.

 

 

Works is doing a lot of heavy lifting there 

[gingerjon]

Compare to Hastings United who also recently rebranded to have a rubbish lion. I really don't like it but it definitely works in both places.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Damien said:

Works is doing a lot of heavy lifting there 

I am being kind.

[Gerrumonside ref]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Compare to Hastings United who also recently rebranded to have a rubbish lion. I really don't like it but it definitely works in both places.

That is a ###### lion.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

That is a ###### lion.

It is, isn't it?

They did completely lean in to it though. All banners with the old badge at the ground replaced, all club merchandise swapped over instantly, and logo painted onto stands at the ground. There was a whole change in what the club put out on the socials and what people could expect on the matchday as well.

Only place you will see a version of the old badge now is on the metal gates outside the ground.

[Chrispmartha]

The football premier league lion is an example of how to do it correctly.

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, gingerjon said:

It is, isn't it?

They did completely lean in to it though. All banners with the old badge at the ground replaced, all club merchandise swapped over instantly, and logo painted onto stands at the ground. There was a whole change in what the club put out on the socials and what people could expect on the matchday as well.

Only place you will see a version of the old badge now is on the metal gates outside the ground.

I’m trying to think of examples of good Lion logos.

I assume the Detroit Lions spend a fortune honing their design.

The international Lions club charity have a nice simple design too.

Did the 1966 World Cup mascot also feature a cartoon lion with a flag on its chest?  If so I’ve remembered it.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

The football premier league lion is an example of how to do it correctly.

Ah yes, this escaped me but is iconic.

[Chrispmartha]

3 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Ah yes, this escaped me but is iconic.

The GB RL lion is absolutely brilliant and one of the best there is, I suspect its more by accident though

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

The GB RL lion is absolutely brilliant and one of the best there is, I suspect its more by accident though

Its social media friendly 20 years before it was even a thing!

[fighting irish]

16 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

No you’re confused about what Im calling objectively rubbish. The logo is objectively a rubbish design, design might be ‘subjective’ but in reality there are fundamentals of design otherwise you wouldn’t have professional designers, which the Leigh logo was definitely not designed by.

The overall branding as in the name and the cut through has been a success partly because of the success on the pitch and partly because they've done a fairly decent job in making a lot of noise with their marketing, it hasn’t been a success because of the terribly designed logo.

Confused? Well so am I. Please enlighten us?

What are the ''objective'' fundamentals that are absent from Leigh's logo?

More, how would you improve it, with your ''objective'' fundamentals?

Just to be clear, I've never heard anyone be so strident in an argument based on a complete misunderstanding of the meaning of the word objective.

Despite your criticism, the uptake of Leopards merchandise amongst the Leigh fans is remarkable and they have successfully made significant increases in the size of their fanbase.

There's two objective facts for you to chew on. 

[LeytherRob]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

You want numbers?

For example, Sign writers understand the size vs distance needed to be clear for people to see, and how the contrast of colours can affect that. That has been broken down into quantifiable amounts.

Likewise, you don't need numbers to tell you when something is going to be terrible for what it's requited for.

Clearly this issue has got to you mate I don't know why. 

Again, you’ve just listed several formatting issues that can occur, which aren’t specific to a particular logo. Every sporting crest becomes illegible if you use a low resolution and increase the size.

And yes you do need numbers, or some form of measurement, or evidence to show something as fact vs opinion. It might be an educated opinion, but it definitely isn’t objective fact. 

[Eddie]

4 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Doesn’t matter so much how you think it looks, that’s pretty subjective. The question is, is it RL or historically Swinton. Not really. 

The biggest problem is that it’s too good. The point of a logo is simplicity and ease of recognition. For a kid doodling to draw that would take a prodigious talent and a lot of time. Some of the most famous logos are literally just a typeface - see Sony, but you can spot it a mile away.

Simplify the Lion and maybe drop the stars, too much of a good thing there. 

While it’s not a great logo, I do think the six stars are a good idea, they’re a proper historic club who’s success in the past should be celebrated, despite the mire they find themselves in now. 

[Barley Mow]

19 minutes ago, Eddie said:

While it’s not a great logo, I do think the six stars are a good idea, they’re a proper historic club who’s success in the past should be celebrated, despite the mire they find themselves in now. 

Agreed. Although the stars were on the previous badge as well.

[Chrispmartha]

27 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Again, you’ve just listed several formatting issues that can occur, which aren’t specific to a particular logo. Every sporting crest becomes illegible if you use a low resolution and increase the size.

And yes you do need numbers, or some form of measurement, or evidence to show something as fact vs opinion. It might be an educated opinion, but it definitely isn’t objective fact. 

Ok we're not really getting anywhere are we, I'm not talking about about a formatting issue, I'm talking about a design being fundamentally flawed because it doesn't work in the applications it needs to.

I can't understand that for you, and if you don't understand it then hey ho.

[Chrispmartha]

39 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Confused? Well so am I. Please enlighten us?

What are the ''objective'' fundamentals that are absent from Leigh's logo?

More, how would you improve it, with your ''objective'' fundamentals?

Just to be clear, I've never heard anyone be so strident in an argument based on a complete misunderstanding of the meaning of the word objective.

Despite your criticism, the uptake of Leopards merchandise amongst the Leigh fans is remarkable and they have successfully made significant increases in the size of their fanbase.

There's two objective facts for you to chew on. 

Why should I waste my time updating or explaining how I would update Leighs Logo, if Degsy wants me to he can pay me my hourly/day rate to do it, but I'm sure he's happy with it as he probably did it himself in Microsoft Paint.

I've praised Leigh for their marketing and uptake.

Are you a Leigh fan? I've never met a bunch of fans that are so chippy and can't take any criticism.

 

 

[LeytherRob]

15 hours ago, Damien said:

There's plenty of sites you can upload a logo and objectively check a logo against all kinds of metrics. As most would know this Swinton logo didn't fare too well when I did just that. It's that obvious though no one should really need to do that

 

4 hours ago, Damien said:

No doubt you've tried several and bizarely chosen to go with the one that doesnt seem to work, returns scores of 100 on just 4 metrics and looks to be knocked up by GCSE student using AI. For someone rambling on about subjectivity it's weird to use to use AI to back up your argument. Are you really not questioning a score of 100 for uniqueness for what is pretty much the same as god knows how many American sports/schools teams?

Your strawman ###### and lies in this post and your next one are pathetic too. You are just making stuff up. I never said about trying many logo raters and never said about it scored very poorly on all of these. Making stuff up is incredibly lame. 

I said you can check a logo with various online tools against all kinds of metrics. I only did on 2 sites. I never said about scores because those sites didn't do scores. What they did show is the logo in use in the digital age and clearly say how a logo should look in various situations. These are all pretty much blackand white scenarios key in the digutal age and the results weren't good on either of these 2 sites. Try using one that shows what it is like pixelated, in containers, at different sizes for scalability, for colour blindness, in different colours etc. You don't need an AI score to tell you if something works or not surely. Some examples for you attached. 

The Leigh chip on the shoulder is certainly strong with you. Always the same with the LDL the moment Leigh gets mentioned.

No I did exactly what you asked me to do, googled it and used the second link(it’s a habit to ignore the 1st as a sponsored link). I also gave the exact conditions I found it so if there is any doubt you could follow the exact same steps and check rather than making assumptions. I think i was also pretty clear what I thought about most of the websites on google being AI based “Most of the websites that come up on google are AI based so very fallible and certainly not to be take as objective truth. ”. So I’m not sure how you’ve taken the post to mean anything other than automated rating tools on the internet are poor. 

everything I’ve said on this discussion has been perfectly good faith debating. You chose to respond to me with a claim that ‘There's plenty of sites you can upload a logo and objectively check a logo against all kinds of metrics. As most would know this Swinton logo didn't fare too well when I did just that.’ 
I haven’t made anything up, I worked with the information you gave me since you refused to give a basic link when asked pretty earnestly. 
 

At this point, we’ve had 2 debates in a pretty short space of time which both have descended into you trying to steamroll the argument before resorting to getting quite personal and then using as hominem attacks on Leigh fans as a whole. Again, we aren’t a hive mind - there are a range of fans on here with differering viewpoints on a range of topics. It’s no different to a comment about Leeds, Wigan, Wakefield or whoever that will draw fans of that particular club. I gave you the benefit of the doubt last time but it’s become pretty clear you aren’t capable of having a grown up debate with me so I think the mute button is going to have to do now.

[fighting irish]

9 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Why should I waste my time updating or explaining how I would update Leighs Logo, if Degsy wants me to he can pay me my hourly/day rate to do it, but I'm sure he's happy with it as he probably did it himself in Microsoft Paint.

I've praised Leigh for their marketing and uptake.

Are you a Leigh fan? I've never met a bunch of fans that are so chippy and can't take any criticism.

 

 

Well i don't blame you for refusing to work for nothing. More power to your elbow.

My first point was a challenge to your claim that the field you work in has objective fundamentals which Leighs logo falls foul of.

Perhaps you'd care to elucidate, without going so far as solving Degsy's ''obvious'' problem for nowt?

I was merely making the point that there is hardly anything objective about the field you work in. It's almost purely subjective and any logo design, is nothing more than a gamble on how the marketplace will respond to your offering. You can't know its objectively good even if you pass the acid test in the market. 

All you can claim, if it moves the sales figures upwards, is your design appealed to enough people to justify the expense, (if it does). If it doesn't you're a failure. It's still all subjective.

I'm not a Leigh fan especially, but I am a Degsy fan. In general, I lean towards admiration for entrepreneurs. 

Good luck with your career.

[Gav Wilson]

Any decent sportswear embroider will tell you that Swinton (and Leigh's) new badges are objectively bad to work with.

Other than the naff badge, Leigh's rebrand has been really successful, so full credit to them.