Lee Radford determined to re-ignite Hull FC

[The Future is League]

I don't think he's got long to do it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/lee-radford-determined-re-ignite-13835742

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

Not a fan of his, he's sacrificed the short term gain (And still managed to muff up badly the 2016 season!) for long term development which has killed us time and again and will do again. We've had to bring lots of players in from outside the club because he's killed off our academy players development massively.  This goes back quite a few years now, former player Kirk Dixon was commentating on us in 2016, he made note of how our youngsters simply did not have the experience/quality to be able to hold their own and were simply out of their depth, things haven't really changed. All he's done is plunder other clubs and continue to fob off or leave out in the cold the kids coming through the academy ranks!

So we're still waiting for a Hull developed youngster to break through into the first XVII under Lee Radford, 5 full seasons and counting now and not one player to debut whilst he's been in charge has gone on to gain a 1-17 jersey! 

 

[Lowdesert]

26 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Not a fan of his, he's sacrificed the short term gain (And still managed to muff up badly the 2016 season!) for long term development which has killed us time and again and will do again. We've had to bring lots of players in from outside the club because he's killed off our academy players development massively.  This goes back quite a few years now, former player Kirk Dixon was commentating on us in 2016, he made note of how our youngsters simply did not have the experience/quality to be able to hold their own and were simply out of their depth, things haven't really changed. All he's done is plunder other clubs and continue to fob off or leave out in the cold the kids coming through the academy ranks!

So we're still waiting for a Hull developed youngster to break through into the first XVII under Lee Radford, 5 full seasons and counting now and not one player to debut whilst he's been in charge has gone on to gain a 1-17 jersey! 

 

Don’t any of these count then?

Matongo, Fash, Lane, Litten, Scott, Turkut, Downs, Lancaster, Abdull, Logan, Tyson-Wilson.

 

[MZH]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Don’t any of these count then?

Matongo, Fash, Lane, Litten, Scott, Turkut, Downs, Lancaster, Abdull, Logan, Tyson-Wilson.

 

TBF he is talking about players becoming first choice, not just playing because others are injured. So no, they don't count towards what he is saying.

I think he is being overly harsh though. There are a few youngsters that might not be the first name on the team sheet but are developing nicely.

I would certainly like to see Litten get more game time though. He could be a star.

[paulwalker71]

I wouldn't say that the failure of a club to develop young players is solely attributed to the Head Coach.

If Hull can't bring through their young players, shouldn't at least a chunk of the 'blame' be levelled at the Academy coach(es)?

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

7 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Don’t any of these count then?

Matongo, Fash, Lane, Litten, Scott, Turkut, Downs, Lancaster, Abdull, Logan, Tyson-Wilson.

 

Let me see, which of those are starters when all the squad is fit

ZERO!

As it happens I think Fash is a cracking player, but not given the shirt number he deserves after his endeavours last season and sure will get game time but still isn't the first XVII selection is he! And none of the others you mentioned were.

Only 5 from the starting XVII are Hull developed players, I don't think that's particularly good tbh.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

4 hours ago, MZH said:

TBF he is talking about players becoming first choice, not just playing because others are injured. So no, they don't count towards what he is saying.

I think he is being overly harsh though. There are a few youngsters that might not be the first name on the team sheet but are developing nicely.

I would certainly like to see Litten get more game time though. He could be a star.

radford said last season he was going to give Litten more game time and rotate Houghton, and guess what happened? He didn't, Houghton got injured and his replacement was ... Danny 'third man in' Washbrook. You only need look at the kids coming through and how time after time they've been discarded, set behind others being bought/brought in and as a consequence of not getting game time/proper chance they've left or just been binned off. You can't improve if you don't play at the top table and don't have a coach who can develop you.

That's the thing though, 5 years in charge and not one is a first selection choice, that's a huge gap, no other coach (and HIS selected coaching team) since I've been watching FC in '78 has ever performed so poorly in terms of developing the youngsters and/or blowing them off in favour of external signings, that has so many downsides it's having a detrimental effect on the club and the money invested by AP has been peed away by LR and his staff!

He got very lucky in 2016, over the cap squad (such that we had to backload contracts) and very few injuries, but blew it because the players were absolutely spent because he failed to rotate and use the kids until it was too late, he did exactly the same thing in 2015 and 2014.

The signing of Griffin*, Carlos and Connor at the same time has caused a real ball ache, sure it turned out he needed a half due to injuries but then yet again where are our halves from the junior ranks that should be knocking on the door/stepping into the fold for such situations, isn't that the point of the academy and spending all that money?

He ponced Harris instead who isn't good enough, he ignored the fact Miloudi actually scored a shed load for Donny at no.6 and should have played him at Fev in the cup but didn't, then it was too late. He'd effectively binned Jordan Abdul off 2016 and he was scapegoated as usual by LR and AP (the BS surrounding the timing of the release of JA transfer request was a disgrace!) We're now resorting to the tried and tested Bradford method of Westerman as a third prop ... AGAIN!

I've praised him when he's got things right but two CC wins are covering up the fact he's just not a very good coach, won't admit when he's wrong, will backstab players, like he did his former coach (Gentle), still ignores his own advice, still hasn't being able to change the same old problems both in attack and defence since he took over and our mental approach at times just beggars belief.

We've had some outstanding quality players, we still do, on their day they can beat the rest, however LR doesn't have the capacity to get the team playing consistently enough, something he said he was going to change a few years ago.

2 trophy's from the 15 available under his tenure with a full cap squad every year and only reaching the play-offs twice in 5 years and narrowly avoiding relegation in his first year (with a squad that the previous year full of rookies got to the play-offs and cc final), it's not really that good is it?

He's just not the coach to take the team/club forward IMHO. 

*who is now going to be a forward ffs!

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

8 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Not a fan of his, he's sacrificed the short term gain (And still managed to muff up badly the 2016 season!) for long term development which has killed us time and again and will do again. We've had to bring lots of players in from outside the club because he's killed off our academy players development massively.  This goes back quite a few years now, former player Kirk Dixon was commentating on us in 2016, he made note of how our youngsters simply did not have the experience/quality to be able to hold their own and were simply out of their depth, things haven't really changed. All he's done is plunder other clubs and continue to fob off or leave out in the cold the kids coming through the academy ranks!

So we're still waiting for a Hull developed youngster to break through into the first XVII under Lee Radford, 5 full seasons and counting now and not one player to debut whilst he's been in charge has gone on to gain a 1-17 jersey! 

 

Jack Logan broke through and got the no4 jersey. He was then made a scape goat for a game, picked up a season ending injury and hasn't been the same since. 

He didn't debut under Radford, but Josh Bowden has kicked on under him.

Not every player can go from academy to first teamer in a season. It doesn't work like that. There are very few Hull players I can think of that have done that. Richard Horne, Paul King, Tom Briscoe. Took Yeaman a few years. Cooke even longer. Handful.

You're expecting too much.

[Hullfan]

Expectations should be high at a massive club like hull fc

[Hullfan]

If Leeds saints or wigan didn't produce a academy player to the first team for 1/2years people would be saying what's going on with there academy. It just comes with the territory of been a huge club. Standard, radford will be fine 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

44 minutes ago, Hullfan said:

If Leeds saints or wigan didn't produce a academy player to the first team for 1/2years people would be saying what's going on with there academy. It just comes with the territory of been a huge club. Standard, radford will be fine 

Who has been debuted at those clubs in the last 2 years and now has a starting 17 number?

[Lowdesert]

9 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Let me see, which of those are starters when all the squad is fit

ZERO!

As it happens I think Fash is a cracking player, but not given the shirt number he deserves after his endeavours last season and sure will get game time but still isn't the first XVII selection is he! And none of the others you mentioned were.

Only 5 from the starting XVII are Hull developed players, I don't think that's particularly good tbh.

Oh, when all the squad is fit?  Should’ve thought of that.  

We’re still waiting for the reasons why Radford is a bad coach.  No rush.

Not very good at this trolling are you?

[Old Frightful]

On 1/10/2019 at 3:48 PM, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Not a fan of his

No...really?

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

8 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Oh, when all the squad is fit?  Should’ve thought of that.  

We’re still waiting for the reasons why Radford is a bad coach.  No rush.

Not very good at this trolling are you?

Trolling.lol

You're not very good at understanding why we've not really brought the youngsters through, why we are having to spend on other clubs kids and indeed senior players, why when we have had injuries our youngsters aren't up to it, you're not very good at understanding that having the youngsters get game time, get developed so that they can become 1st choice is massively important to sustain a team/club.

Maybe you want to ignore the continual failures of Radford as a coach but I won't.

But top trolling from you ...not!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

35 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Trolling.lol

You're not very good at understanding why we've not really brought the youngsters through, why we are having to spend on other clubs kids and indeed senior players, why when we have had injuries our youngsters aren't up to it, you're not very good at understanding that having the youngsters get game time, get developed so that they can become 1st choice is massively important to sustain a team/club.

Maybe you want to ignore the continual failures of Radford as a coach but I won't.

But top trolling from you ...not!

Trolling is unfair. You both clearly have different opinions and that doesn't been you're trolling.

In all fairness, the players in our starting 17 have been pretty good. A youngster, any youngster, would have had to do a lot to shift them. Many youngsters usually get their chance to shine when there are injuries, and we didn't have many in 16-17 so there weren't many chances to take. Those that did have done well. Last year, we had too many key players injured at once so it wasn't a good way to develop.

Game time isn't the key to development. This is a myth or a misunderstanding. The right game time and the right amount of it at key times with the right mix of players is key.

Our youngsters aren't ready yet. It's a building process. You don't just get a player from the academy and plonk him in the first team. It's not that simple.

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Trolling.lol

You're not very good at understanding why we've not really brought the youngsters through, why we are having to spend on other clubs kids and indeed senior players, why when we have had injuries our youngsters aren't up to it, you're not very good at understanding that having the youngsters get game time, get developed so that they can become 1st choice is massively important to sustain a team/club.

Maybe you want to ignore the continual failures of Radford as a coach but I won't.

But top trolling from you ...not!

Which other club doesn’t spend on other clubs players?  Young or otherwise.  Name just one.  Tell us.

Winning back to back Challenge Cups is failure?  Explain what success is.

Meanwhile, you still have that Radford coaching question to answer.

Radford has had a rollercoaster ride, I’ll agree, and this year might define him one way or the other, but criticising a venture which was nothing to do with him at initiation, is a silly argument.  But, you are what you are.

[Old Frightful]

On 1/11/2019 at 4:36 PM, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Trolling.lol

You're not very good at understanding why we've not really brought the youngsters through, why we are having to spend on other clubs kids and indeed senior players, why when we have had injuries our youngsters aren't up to it, you're not very good at understanding that having the youngsters get game time, get developed so that they can become 1st choice is massively important to sustain a team/club.

Maybe you want to ignore the continual failures of Radford as a coach but I won't.

But top trolling from you ...not!

I think I'd give up if I were you.

I've met many people who have rugby league at their heart including supporters of most English clubs. Plenty think they know about the game and how their particular club ought to be run.

Lowdesert has by far the most in depth knowledge of how to run a club I've ever heard from a fellow speccie and I went to my first game in the sixties.

You might think you'll win an argument with him but that will only be in your mind.

[Ant]

With RL being so strong in Hull (even split between two clubs) and with very good crowds and a good backer and Hull FC should be one of the games powerhouse clubs. 

The fact they aren't should be a frustration to ever Hull fan, can't just blame the head coach, but as a non Hull fan I hope Radford is his job for a good long while yet 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I've still not been given a list of all these academy products that have debuted at other clubs in the last 2 years and made the first 17 in squad numbers...

[Chris22]

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I've still not been given a list of all these academy products that have debuted at other clubs in the last 2 years and made the first 17 in squad numbers...

For Saints:

Regan Grace
Danny Richardson
Morgan Knowles
Matty Lees (not in the first 17 in terms of squad number, but 19 appearances last year and expected to be a regular started this year).

Jack Ashworth and Aaron Smith are likely to receive more game time this year at the expense of Kyle Amor and possibly Theo Fages/James Roby.

[Ant]

2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I've still not been given a list of all these academy products that have debuted at other clubs in the last 2 years and made the first 17 in squad numbers...

Giants have Darnell Mackintosh, Kruze Leeming, Ollie Roberts

[TheDuke]

It’s not a 17 man game now never mind 13 men, a squad of circa 30 is needed, shirt numbers are largely irrelevant 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

11 minutes ago, TheDuke said:

It’s not a 17 man game now never mind 13 men, a squad of circa 30 is needed, shirt numbers are largely irrelevant 

My point exactly.

Because a youngster grant burst onto the scene for us and suddenly received a 1-17 shirt, it doesn't mean we're not producing any. Fash, Matongo, Logan (who did actually receive a #4 squad number) to name a few.

We've had a successful team and few injuries that needed covering into last year's injury issue, so there hasn't been as much opportunity. Didn't hear many complaints then.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

13 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I've still not been given a list of all these academy products that have debuted at other clubs in the last 2 years and made the first 17 in squad numbers...

but it's 5 years for Radford/Hull, not 2. The last academy player to debut and go on to become a first XVII regular, as in the first choice player for their position, not a back up and/or good enough to be given the regular interchange spot e.g. Bowden/Green was I think Jamie Shaul or Dean Hadley in 2013.

The clubs ability to develop local players is shocking, when was the last Hull FC player who came through the ranks to make it into the national side, Kirk Yeaman I think, his last rep game was 2011! We have plenty of kids like Jansin Turgut making their mark in the academy national side, but they are then failing from that point onward, shouldn't we the fans be asking why the coach and his coaching team are failing in this massively vital area?

All well and good picking up other English clubs leftovers/youngsters, and yes, sometimes they work out ok, even brilliant like Connor but that's a one off, the rest are tried and tested big names with a big price tag/wages. 

I'm already concerned for the likes of Brad Fash whom many are writing off already because he's 'too small' and the club have brought in a few journeymen to bolster the numbers.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

7 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

but it's 5 years for Radford/Hull, not 2. The last academy player to debut and go on to become a first XVII regular, as in the first choice player for their position, not a back up and/or good enough to be given the regular interchange spot e.g. Bowden/Green was I think Jamie Shaul or Dean Hadley in 2013.

The clubs ability to develop local players is shocking, when was the last Hull FC player who came through the ranks to make it into the national side, Kirk Yeaman I think, his last rep game was 2011! We have plenty of kids like Jansin Turgut making their mark in the academy national side, but they are then failing from that point onward, shouldn't we the fans be asking why the coach and his coaching team are failing in this massively vital area?

All well and good picking up other English clubs leftovers/youngsters, and yes, sometimes they work out ok, even brilliant like Connor but that's a one off, the rest are tried and tested big names with a big price tag/wages. 

I'm already concerned for the likes of Brad Fash whom many are writing off already because he's 'too small' and the club have brought in a few journeymen to bolster the numbers.

 

Didn't Matongo just make the England Knights?

Bowden has made the first 13.

Logan was number 4 before his injury.

Briscoe was the last player to make the England side, not Yeaman. But then Houghton has won Man of Steel since then, so I'm including him too.

Don't get me wrong, we want higher. But it's not as bad as you've made out. The academy was briefed on the times of Hetherington, and Pearson made that clear. He also said it would take a while to turn around because you can't just make products over night. 

I'm not sure what your solution is?