RFL needs to reform access to SL for Co-Op C. Clubs

[Lobbygobbler]

I thought this post deserves a dedicated thread. My club Leigh and its fans, plus other clubs who haven't got an on-the-pitch box ticked, now know that we will not be in SL until at least 2015 (unless the RFL amends the 3-year cycle). All the other clubs eligible will learn their fate next year, with (I'm guessing) only one to go up. Four-Five years is a hell of a long time to be in the wilderness with no promotion prospects.

My prediction is that crowds in the Co-Op championship will plummet to circa-1000 levels or less after the licensing decision in 2011. The better supported clubs will lose all but a few hardy souls/WAGS/family, which will in tuen affect away followings at the porrly supported clubs.

I cannot make it clear enough that it is not in RL fans nature to watch a second tier with no prospects for so long, so any prat on here who says the usual #### "why not just watch your team for the rugby and find your level" can go forth and fornicate

Does the RFL want such a second tier until 2015? By that time all the co-op championship clubs will have lost the majority of their fanbases and be left with little more than an amateur clubs support. IMO there is no point making life easy for the likes of one of two SL clubs near the bottom whilst the rest of pro-RL goes into meltdown.

The other thing that the RFL should bear in mind is that the fans that will be lost will also in many cases stop watching internationals and finals, and could also remove sky sports subscriptions, which will in turn harm RL's hopes to get more money from sky next time.

There are other alternatives to keep everyone happy. I am an expansionist as well as a heartlander, and realise that there is no point cutting off our nose to spite our face. What we need is regular promotion to SL, if enough achievable criteria can be met (i.e. youth, finances) with a ringfenced 1 year for the promoted club(s) to get its/theirself sorted on-the-pitch and to make necessary moderate amendments to their stadium (if it is close the the min requirement (e.g. Barrow).

it's not rocket science

[tim2]

I thought this post deserves a dedicated thread.

Unlike the 100 others you've started on this topic.

Cheese sandwich, anyone?

[Lobbygobbler]

Unlike the 100 others you've started on this topic.

Cheese sandwich, anyone?

Serious question - You happy with sub 1k crowds at Sheffield?

[RidingPie]

Hi... Long time lurker on these boards but first time poster (love the site and all that)

My prediction is that crowds in the Co-Op championship will plummet to circa-1000 levels or less after the licensing decision in 2011. The better supported clubs will lose all but a few hardy souls/WAGS/family, which will in tuen affect away followings at the porrly supported clubs.

Lobby didn't you, more or less, predict the same thing at the last round of franchising?

Mike

[Dave T]

Whilst your constant ramblings on this are a bore, I do actually agree with you on the 5 year thing. I can understand the problem with pretty much clubs facing up to the fact that it will be 5 years before they could actually play in SL.

Personally I would allow anybody to actually apply for SL, forget the ticking the box on-field although give some value to doing well.

This still causes some problems with timescales, however clubs like Leigh would still be able to prove their worth and get a place next year if strong enough so the gap would be shorter.

Maybe it should be 2 year franchises to help this situation too?

[rlno1]

Why not play, home and away, promotion/relegation matches between the last place team in SL and Chmp 1 winners?

[tonyXIII]

I'm sure a lot on here will dismiss this thread as just more rantings from Lobby. While that is not fair, it is getting a bit repetitive. We understand where you're coming from. We understood that ages ago. But I have to repeat that something had to change because the old P&R system was not working.

Can I ask a serious question? What do the owners and coaches of Championship and Championship 1 clubs think of the situation? They are the only ones who might be listened to. If they are unhappy, they should voice their concerns to the RFL and, if nothing happens, openly. A fan, even one as dedicated as you, repeatedly posting on here will not change a thing.

My own opinion is that some kind of promotion and 'safe period' might have been a better arrangement, but even that would cause problems. Say Cru, Quins and Cats (all 'safe' expansion clubs) finish 12th, 13th and 14th and the 'safe' club(s) finish 10th and 11th? The club finishing 9th would go down after just missing the play-offs (on points difference?). There is no perfect solution. The old system was flawed. The present system is flawed. Any system will be flawed.

One thing I do think could be constructively discussed is what the RFL should be planning for our game outside SL.

[tim2]

Why not play, home and away, promotion/relegation matches between the last place team in SL and Chmp 1 winners?

That's the least level playing field I can think of. Unless you played it at Batley, allowing the SL team to kick downhill in both halves and have 13 players v 9.

SL clubs have more overseas players, full time squads, a massively higher salary cap etc. etc. It would be a miracle if the CC side won. Then they would have about 6 weeks to assemble a squad.

[Lobbygobbler]

Why not play, home and away, promotion/relegation matches between the last place team in SL and Chmp 1 winners?

Because the SL team would have the advantage - they have more overseas players allowed for a start

Why not just relegate the worst SL club (from the heartlands)?

[tim2]

Serious question - You happy with sub 1k crowds at Sheffield?

No, but P+R would make sod all difference to that. At Bramall Lane we're higher than 1K now, should be aiming for 2K + with better marketing. About comparible with (or better than) semi-pro football at a similar payment levels to the players. It would be like having P+R straight from the Blue Square Division 1 North straight into the Premier League.

[tonyXIII]

Why not play, home and away, promotion/relegation matches between the last place team in SL and Chmp 1 winners?

In theory, a nice idea. This year, it would be who? Probably Fev against Salford (assuming Cats and Quins are 'safe' as expansion clubs). Who would you put your money on? I know Barrow beat Cas, but a home and away upset? I think Salford have been ###### this year, but I still think we'd beat Fev home and away.

edit. I see tim2 and Lobby beat me to it.

Edited September 8, 2010 by tonyXIII

[Lobbygobbler]

I'm sure a lot on here will dismiss this thread as just more rantings from Lobby. While that is not fair, it is getting a bit repetitive. We understand where you're coming from. We understood that ages ago. But I have to repeat that something had to change because the old P&R system was not working.

Can I ask a serious question? What do the owners and coaches of Championship and Championship 1 clubs think of the situation? They are the only ones who might be listened to. If they are unhappy, they should voice their concerns to the RFL and, if nothing happens, openly. A fan, even one as dedicated as you, repeatedly posting on here will not change a thing.

My own opinion is that some kind of promotion and 'safe period' might have been a better arrangement, but even that would cause problems. Say Cru, Quins and Cats (all 'safe' expansion clubs) finish 12th, 13th and 14th and the 'safe' club(s) finish 10th and 11th? The club finishing 9th would go down after just missing the play-offs (on points difference?). There is no perfect solution. The old system was flawed. The present system is flawed. Any system will be flawed.

One thing I do think could be constructively discussed is what the RFL should be planning for our game outside SL.

If the team finishing 9th went down, that would be a better scenario than the doomsday we have now. At least they could come back up

I suspect that some fans/clubs in Co-Op Championships may not be that fussed because they might not have ambitions for SL or may not currently have big fanbases. However there are many clubs whose fans do want a shot at SL (e.g. Leigh, Barrow, Fev, Fax, Oldham if they can get up etc)

One thing is for sure. I am getting shut of sky sports at the end of this year unless something is done

[tim2]

A more relevant question would be:

If the Championship is licensed, has 14 teams with 26 games and minimum criteria that are gradually increased, would that help? At what point would you then be able to open the door again?

Obviously this wouldn't help the clubs who missed the cut. They would have to re-invent themselves as community clubs and rebuild with a proper business plan instead of stumbling along on the edge of bankruptcy safe in their "semi-pro" status.

[JohnM]

Why not just relegate the worst SL club (from the heartlands)?

What happens under the current P and R system when an SL club loses its licence?

[Lobbygobbler]

No, but P+R would make sod all difference to that. At Bramall Lane we're higher than 1K now, should be aiming for 2K + with better marketing. About comparible with (or better than) semi-pro football at a similar payment levels to the players. It would be like having P+R straight from the Blue Square Division 1 North straight into the Premier League.

I don't think Sheffield could get higher than 1k with the current wait until 2015 (assuming that they don't get to this years GF)

[Lobbygobbler]

A more relevant question would be:

If the Championship is licensed, has 14 teams with 26 games and minimum criteria that are gradually increased, would that help? At what point would you then be able to open the door again?

Obviously this wouldn't help the clubs who missed the cut. They would have to re-invent themselves as community clubs and rebuild with a proper business plan instead of stumbling along on the edge of bankruptcy safe in their "semi-pro" status.

Clubs in the Co-Op Championship are more likely to go bankrupt with sub 1k crowds

Some clubs in SL are being held afloat by sugar daddies

[tim2]

I don't think Sheffield could get higher than 1k with the current wait until 2015 (assuming that they don't get to this years GF)

The people who already go don't care, and the new people we attract don't know. They just see a great game that they want to watch again. It takes a while before they understand the nuances of the game's structure, and by then they're hooked.

The average at BL is already over 1K, and next year there's no Whitehaven to come down - Hunslet and probably Oldham will bring more than Haven and Keighley did.

[1976PMJwires]

Clubs in the Co-Op Championship are more likely to go bankrupt with sub 1k crowds

Some clubs in SL are being held afloat by sugar daddies

I think you started this thread as your aware of Basil going to Salford

[tim2]

Some clubs in SL are being held afloat by sugar daddies

They always have been. Even before SL, who do you think bankrolled the part time clubs? Local businessmen who liked the game and enjoyed being in the Director's box. They certainly didn't do it as an investment.

Did you watch the documentary on Eddie Waring? The game was on its backside in the late 60s and early 70s. It's not a new thing at all - in fact the game is in far better shape overall.

[dallymessenger]

the rfl have got it spot on with entry into SL

other than widnes no other championship club is fit for SL.

down the track leigh and fax could be ready but not now

if championship clubs really want to get into SL its up to them to improve off the field.

[Lobbygobbler]

I think you started this thread as your aware of Basil going to Salford

Thought he was on a contract.

But anyway this just backs up my thread. Why would an aspiring coach want to hang around in some no-mark division with no chance of SL until 2015?

[Lobbygobbler]

the rfl have got it spot on with entry into SL

other than widnes no other championship club is fit for SL.

down the track leigh and fax could be ready but not now

if championship clubs really want to get into SL its up to them to improve off the field.

Who will watch a club with no clear route to the top? The RFL have created a huge chicken and egg situation. People won't just suddenly en masse start going to watch a 2nd tier club because it could all be in vain (as Barrow, Fev and Fax will shortly discover)

people will go if there is a clear unfettered route from on the pitch performances (so long as other boxes are of course ticked). It's all about building momentum

[1976PMJwires]

Thought he was on a contract.

But anyway this just backs up my thread. Why would an aspiring coach want to hang around in some no-mark division with no chance of SL until 2015?

i thought he had a contract as well, but rumour has it, Salford are sniffing.

i do agree with you 3 years is a long time, 2 years would be ideal.

Leigh / Fev / Fax need to get there crowds up for me.

on a side note.

My mate went to the Quins match on Friday, said he was "gutted" as there was more interest in the stands (drinking and watching sky sports news) than the watching the match on the pitch.

he thinks a Championship club will have to be a stand by during the 2012-2014 seasons, cant see Quins surviving.

Quins had an offer for season tickets holders to bring 3 friends for Free and the crowd was no bigger than the "average" he said Wires took approx 1000 fans...... the future is very bleak.

[dallymessenger]

Who will watch a club with no clear route to the top? The RFL have created a huge chicken and egg situation. People won't just suddenly en masse start going to watch a 2nd tier club because it could all be in vain (as Barrow, Fev and Fax will shortly discover)

people will go if there is a clear unfettered route from on the pitch performances (so long as other boxes are of course ticked). It's all about building momentum

if a club in the heartlands with no competing local sports cant attract a crowd for a game they should just pack it in.

P&R was tried and failed

franchising is now being tried and has gone off like a treat.

if championship clubs want to get into SL they need to improve.

[Lobbygobbler]

if a club in the heartlands with no competing local sports cant attract a crowd for a game they should just pack it in.

P&R was tried and failed

franchising is now being tried and has gone off like a treat.

if championship clubs want to get into SL they need to improve.

The main competing sport is football (live or TV) or another SL club to a lesser extent. For Leigh it is Man U, Man City, Liverpool etc

Just how has franchising gone off a treat? Crowds are no bigger for SL clubs than they were 3, 5, 7 years ago with P&R. In some cases they are far worse. However crowds are also declining for Co-Op clubs since the last announcement.

I'd like to see you try and market the game to Co-Op clubs for the next 4 years to get them to improve with the current system