Football

[bbfaz]

On 27/05/2023 at 23:42, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

It's going to be interesting to see how if it changes the vast number of Arsenal and Chelsea shirts we see around here

Well, it wasn't so long ago that Brighton weren't in the top 5 of biggest clubs in Sussex so things can turn around quickly.

[Gerrumonside ref]

40 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

Bayern's "fan friends" are Bochum, which is handy because they are rivals with all the Ruhr clubs.

They’re fan friends with St Pauli and Hertha too.

To be honest I find these fan affiliations with other domestic teams a bit odd.

What happens when you play each other in a massive game and balls things up for each other?

Surely these fan friendships will struggle to endure that even if you have political ties or whatever.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[The Masked Poster]

On 28/05/2023 at 20:25, meast said:

It's aimed at most PL clubs who are run solely for the benefit of global conglomerates and/or oil states.

I'm not jealous of "City" Stoke? Birmingham? no, I couldn't give a hoot about it to be honest, I enjoy lower league football now, where (generally) sporting prowess is still the basis of the sport and not financial doping to get to the top.

Manchester City may be powerful and successful now but they've had to sell their soul to get there, not for me.

 

...

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[The Masked Poster]

7 hours ago, Number 16 said:

 

And just ower the border wee Annan Athletic won promotion to Scottish 1.

Happy days 

Taylor Charters was immense when he came on. The twenty year old was super calm with the deciding penalty in front of the Stockport end. 

In all my years of following United, in fact, following sport, I've never felt emotion like I did yesterday. 

 

Don't worry mate, you'll probably be back playing Bradford City the year after next

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, bbfaz said:

Well, it wasn't so long ago that Brighton weren't in the top 5 of biggest clubs in Sussex so things can turn around quickly.

And amazing how quickly they can nose dive back down too...ask Blackpool 

[bbfaz]

17 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

They’re fan friends with St Pauli and Hertha too.

To be honest I find these fan affiliations with other domestic teams a bit odd.

What happens when you play each other in a massive game and balls things up for each other?

Surely these fan friendships will struggle to endure that even if you have political ties or whatever.

 

Bochum are the only team who still actively maintain the fan friendship IIRC.  It has also helped that Bochum fell into the 2. Bundesliga for 15 years and only came back up two years ago.

As for fan friendships struggling to endure, the obvious one is Hertha and Union.  In the FDR/DDR era, Union and Hertha had a long-standing fan friendship from the 70s.  Union were the "civilian club", the "better to be a loser than a Stasi-pig" club so Hertha ultras would cross over to the East to watch games at the Alte Forestei and Union ultras would travel across the Eastern bloc to support Hertha when they played in European competitions.  Hertha were often the second team of East German fans, romanticised as "their" club in exile.

However, post-reunification, things changed. At the first game after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Hertha officials invited BFC Dynamo officials to their game, which was a major blunder.  As time went on and Union drew younger fans as the "club of the people".  Hertha were perceived as the club of the elitist Wessies, while Union were for anti-establishment Ossies who bought into the DIY club ethos, "the fans who literally built the club".

When Hertha got relegated to 2. Bundesliga and they started to play more regularly, the rivalry became more pronounced.  When Hertha won at the Alte Forestei, the Union captain said that seeing "those Wessies" celebrate in their stadium made him want to vomit.  They call it "the wall in the mind" where partition created these deep-seeded divisions.  Now, it's a full-on derby.  Now the friendship has basically gone for all but the old timers who wish it could be a gentler rivalry, similar to the Milan derby.

Copa 90 made an excellent documentary about the first derby in Bundesliga.

[bbfaz]

21 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

And amazing how quickly they can nose dive back down too...ask Blackpool 

Well, Blackpool are the worst case scenario.  Some owners take their good fortune and invest in infrastructure so they can prevent themselves going back to the same depths.  Instead, Blackpool had the Oystons taking out a pound for every penny they'd ever invested in the club, picking the bones clean.

Hull have been back to League 1 but they've never been back to the dark days at Boothferry.  Wigan have gone back to League 1 but it doesn't help they've been bought by asset strippers and, to be honest, were always a fourth division club pumped up by outside money.

I was listening to a preview of the Playoff final by an American podcast.  One of the guys is Welsh and in his 40s, the other is an American in his 20s.  The Welshman was talking about when Coventry were a top division mainstay and the American said he started watching English football in the mid-2000s.  For him, his Coventry was Bolton, Charlton, Reading or Portsmouth.  Almost all those clubs have suffered through asset strippers and incompetence.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 minute ago, bbfaz said:

Well, Blackpool are the worst case scenario.  Some owners take their good fortune and invest in infrastructure so they can prevent themselves going back to the same depths.  Instead, Blackpool had the Oystons taking out a pound for every penny they'd ever invested in the club, picking the bones clean.

Hull have been back to League 1 but they've never been back to the dark days at Boothferry.  Wigan have gone back to League 1 but it doesn't help they've been bought by asset strippers and, to be honest, were always a fourth division club pumped up by outside money.

I was listening to a preview of the Playoff final by an American podcast.  One of the guys is Welsh and in his 40s, the other is an American in his 20s.  The Welshman was talking about when Coventry were a top division mainstay and the American said he started watching English football in the mid-2000s.  For him, his Coventry was Bolton, Charlton, Reading or Portsmouth.  Almost all those clubs have suffered through asset strippers and incompetence.

Imagine how different it would be under USA style licensing in sport

A closed shop....less tragic and less magic I guess 

[bbfaz]

35 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Imagine how different it would be under USA style licensing in sport

A closed shop....less tragic and less magic I guess 

Well, basically everything outside the closed shop would either become a client to people inside the shop or would just die.  You look at Major League Soccer and it suffocates any possibility for growth elsewhere.

I'd rather have an open system that is messed up than plutocracy.

 

[HawkMan]

Sean Dyche " we're having a party ,inviting everyone who helped keep Everton up. The Leeds Leicester and Southampton squads,  obviously not Everton players."

Not Dyche but Darren Farley, brilliant.

 

 

[bbfaz]

I thought it was a joke that somebody wants Sean Dyche sacked.  However, he's not glamorous enough for Moshiri (read: Usmanov) and they want somebody else, be it Patrick Vieira or whoever favoured agents put his way.

I think that so long as Moshiri and Usmanov are making the decisions, it's inevitable that Everton will eventually be relegated.

[wilsontown]

On 13/05/2023 at 16:42, wilsontown said:

I'm a Sheffield Wednesday fan. Hold me.

Well, that was something of a rollercoaster.

[Route66]

On 29/05/2023 at 15:33, Number 16 said:

 

And just ower the border wee Annan Athletic won promotion to Scottish 1.

Happy days 

Taylor Charters was immense when he came on. The twenty year old was super calm with the deciding penalty in front of the Stockport end. 

In all my years of following United, in fact, following sport, I've never felt emotion like I did yesterday. 

 

Doesn't seem that long ago that his dad Ryan  was playing in the pack for workington town ,seems like football is really starting to finally take over from rugby league in what has always been one of the sports last strongholds

[meast]

On 29/05/2023 at 23:27, bbfaz said:

Bochum are the only team who still actively maintain the fan friendship IIRC.  It has also helped that Bochum fell into the 2. Bundesliga for 15 years and only came back up two years ago.

As for fan friendships struggling to endure, the obvious one is Hertha and Union.  In the FDR/DDR era, Union and Hertha had a long-standing fan friendship from the 70s.  Union were the "civilian club", the "better to be a loser than a Stasi-pig" club so Hertha ultras would cross over to the East to watch games at the Alte Forestei and Union ultras would travel across the Eastern bloc to support Hertha when they played in European competitions.  Hertha were often the second team of East German fans, romanticised as "their" club in exile.

However, post-reunification, things changed. At the first game after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Hertha officials invited BFC Dynamo officials to their game, which was a major blunder.  As time went on and Union drew younger fans as the "club of the people".  Hertha were perceived as the club of the elitist Wessies, while Union were for anti-establishment Ossies who bought into the DIY club ethos, "the fans who literally built the club".

When Hertha got relegated to 2. Bundesliga and they started to play more regularly, the rivalry became more pronounced.  When Hertha won at the Alte Forestei, the Union captain said that seeing "those Wessies" celebrate in their stadium made him want to vomit.  They call it "the wall in the mind" where partition created these deep-seeded divisions.  Now, it's a full-on derby.  Now the friendship has basically gone for all but the old timers who wish it could be a gentler rivalry, similar to the Milan derby.

Copa 90 made an excellent documentary about the first derby in Bundesliga.

I was at the most recent Berlin derby at Olympiastadion back in January and despite their being (unofficially) around 15,000 Unioner there I got the feeling there was still a bit of a friendly rivalry, especially among the older end, my mates who I met at the game were drinking with Hertha fans before and after the match and other than one bit of a set to at a bar which involved a couple of gobsters I didn't come across any animosity or trouble and both fans mixed freely.

I gather the rivalry can be quite nasty among the younger elements and the ultras though.

[meast]

On 30/05/2023 at 16:17, wilsontown said:

Well, that was something of a rollercoaster.

Up the Owls, literally, the miracle men are back up

[bbfaz]

1 hour ago, meast said:

I was at the most recent Berlin derby at Olympiastadion back in January and despite their being (unofficially) around 15,000 Unioner there I got the feeling there was still a bit of a friendly rivalry, especially among the older end, my mates who I met at the game were drinking with Hertha fans before and after the match and other than one bit of a set to at a bar which involved a couple of gobsters I didn't come across any animosity or trouble and both fans mixed freely.

I gather the rivalry can be quite nasty among the younger elements and the ultras though.

As I said, the older fans still have the affinity between the two clubs.  They were brothers across the barricades, the punks at Union wore Hertha patches on their denim jackets and Hertha fans would pay 30 marks to go and see their friends in Köpenick.

I've been reading about Union quite a bit in recent days, given they've made it into the Champions League.  It seems that once the hype of the first Bundesliga derby died down, it hasn't quite bubbled up in the way it did in 2. Bundesliga.  Union clearly don't have anything to prove either, while 777 Partners have struck again and Hertha are getting relegated.

In many ways, Berlin is a wonderful football city and certainly a unique one.  However, there are so many clubs representing so many districts and neighbourhoods that it's impossible to break through.  When Viktoria got promoted to 3.Liga, they made a lot of noise about being Berlin's third team but the gap is just impossible to bridge.  They don't even have a stadium to develop.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

5 hours ago, bbfaz said:

In many ways, Berlin is a wonderful football city and certainly a unique one.  However, there are so many clubs representing so many districts and neighbourhoods that it's impossible to break through.  When Viktoria got promoted to 3.Liga, they made a lot of noise about being Berlin's third team but the gap is just impossible to bridge.  They don't even have a stadium to develop.

Berlin is a truly wonderful city in general, the only city in the world I want to live in. You mention Viktoria, they are based in the south western borough of Steglitz-Zehlendorf which is possibly the most beautiful part of the city. The whole area is just tree lined streets and mansions. The last time I was in Berlin I just went for a walk around that area because I was going to a folk museum there and had just been to the Botanical Gardens and despite the walk just being a few streets away I just spent a couple of hours strolling up and down the streets looking at every house and listening to birds tweeting and watching leaves drifting down off trees and generally spunking myself... Sigh... I love Berlin and now you've upset me cos I can't go back immediately...

[bbfaz]

It's one of the few places I'd love to move to.

[bbfaz]

3 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Berlin is a truly wonderful city in general, the only city in the world I want to live in. You mention Viktoria, they are based in the south western borough of Steglitz-Zehlendorf which is possibly the most beautiful part of the city. The whole area is just tree lined streets and mansions. The last time I was in Berlin I just went for a walk around that area because I was going to a folk museum there and had just been to the Botanical Gardens and despite the walk just being a few streets away I just spent a couple of hours strolling up and down the streets looking at every house and listening to birds tweeting and watching leaves drifting down off trees and generally spunking myself... Sigh... I love Berlin and now you've upset me cos I can't go back immediately...

The trees and the birds and the walking reminds me of the time I went to San Francisco in 2008. I would just walk up and down roads, look at architecture, look at the local restaurants and shops. My friend says it is not the same.

Edited June 1, 2023 by bbfaz

[meast]

15 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Berlin is a truly wonderful city in general, the only city in the world I want to live in. You mention Viktoria, they are based in the south western borough of Steglitz-Zehlendorf which is possibly the most beautiful part of the city. The whole area is just tree lined streets and mansions. The last time I was in Berlin I just went for a walk around that area because I was going to a folk museum there and had just been to the Botanical Gardens and despite the walk just being a few streets away I just spent a couple of hours strolling up and down the streets looking at every house and listening to birds tweeting and watching leaves drifting down off trees and generally spunking myself... Sigh... I love Berlin and now you've upset me cos I can't go back immediately...

Agree with all of that, It's a lovely part of a great city around the Lichterfelde, you can almost feel the vibe from the 20's and 30s wandering around.

A shame then they had to to play their 3.Liga games at the vast Jahn Sportpark in front a few hundred loyal fans and more away fans for most games.

There's so many cracking little clubs and grounds in and around Berlin it's an absolute groundhoppers dream.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

7 hours ago, meast said:

There's so many cracking little clubs and grounds in and around Berlin it's an absolute groundhoppers dream.

The one to tick off above all others is Stadion im Sportsforum at Sportsforum Hohenschonhausen which is where BFC Dynamo play. Sounds like you probably know but for others, it was the home of SC Dynamo Berlin during the DDR period which was the football arm of the Stasi's sports club, SV Dynamo. 

That club was disbanded after reunification and was officially succeeded by SC Berlin but BFC Dynamo, which was formed out of the football arm of SV Dynamo in the 60s, still play at the Sportsforum. I think the stadium is being renovated at the moment because it doesn't meet the requirements of 3. Liga but they normally pull a couple of thousand in for games. They have a massive rivalry with Union but I guess that probably isn't played much anymore given Union's rise up the pyramid. 

Just down the road from the Sportsforum is Hohenschonhausen prison which was the Stasi's secret prison. Visiting there is probably the most interesting thing I've ever done in all my trips to Berlin. You get a guided tour around the facility and get told about all the psychological torture the Stasi subjected their victims to. During the DDR era as well, that whole area showed up blank on maps and no one knew any of it was there. Obviously people knew something was there but they weren't allowed to go there so hardly anyone knew about the prison until reunification. 

[meast]

I've still not managed to get to visit the Stasi building, despite being in the area countless times, on the same block as the Stasi building is the wonderful Hans Zoschke, home of SV Lichtenberg 47 and formerly FC Union reserves team    

And the afore mentioned and the marvellously run down Sportforum

 

While I'm at it, here is the previously mentioned Stadion Lichterfelde in Steglitz

[The Hallucinating Goose]

3 hours ago, meast said:

I've still not managed to get to visit the Stasi building, despite being in the area countless times, on the same block as the Stasi building is the wonderful Hans Zoschke, home of SV Lichtenberg 47 and formerly FC Union reserves team    

That's the one behind the Stasi headquarters on Frankfurter Allee isn't it? 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find another city that has so many picturesque stadiums. So many are set in parkland or on tree lined, cobbled streets in quiet suburbs. Indeed so many Berlin districts feel like small towns that aren't part of an enormous metropolis.

Which would you say your favourite stadium in the city is? 

A couple of bonus questions as well. Which is your favourite district of the city? 

And, what is your favourite place to visit in the city? 

[meast]

4 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

That's the one behind the Stasi headquarters on Frankfurter Allee isn't it? 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find another city that has so many picturesque stadiums. So many are set in parkland or on tree lined, cobbled streets in quiet suburbs. Indeed so many Berlin districts feel like small towns that aren't part of an enormous metropolis.

Which would you say your favourite stadium in the city is? 

A couple of bonus questions as well. Which is your favourite district of the city? 

And, what is your favourite place to visit in the city? 

Favourite stadium is Alte Forsterei, but I'm biased as I'm a Union member.

I do like Olympiastadion and Jahn Sportpark but also love the smaller ones, BFC Preussen, Poststadion is another belter as is Mommsenstadion with the 1930s art deco stands.

Absolutely brilliant, give me these over soulless bowls or square tins anyday.

Again, I like most districts really, I liked Pankow, Prenzlauer Berg/Kollwitzkiez is where we usually stay and that's nice to walk around  and of course Hansaviertel, Charlottenburg up by the palace, even some of the Eastern districts have some charm, Rummelsburg, Karlshorst and of course Köpenick

Don't really have a favourite though they're all pretty nice and charming in their own way.

Some parts of Wedding are a little less salubrious though.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

5 hours ago, meast said:

Favourite stadium is Alte Forsterei, but I'm biased as I'm a Union member.

I do like Olympiastadion and Jahn Sportpark but also love the smaller ones, BFC Preussen, Poststadion is another belter as is Mommsenstadion with the 1930s art deco stands.

Absolutely brilliant, give me these over soulless bowls or square tins anyday.

Again, I like most districts really, I liked Pankow, Prenzlauer Berg/Kollwitzkiez is where we usually stay and that's nice to walk around  and of course Hansaviertel, Charlottenburg up by the palace, even some of the Eastern districts have some charm, Rummelsburg, Karlshorst and of course Köpenick

Don't really have a favourite though they're all pretty nice and charming in their own way.

Some parts of Wedding are a little less salubrious though.

Good choices, I was gonna say Mommsenstadion as my favourite. I'd also like to give a shout out to the Ernst-Reuter Sportfeld in Zehlendorf. Only a tiny little thing with a couple of terraced stands but in an absolutely gorgeous location. Like you say, they all have their own charms and you can just feel the history exuding from them.

This is generally why Berlin is my favourite place in the world though. The air is just thick with the history, you just feel it when you're on the S-Bahn travelling into Mitte from the airport when you first arrive. There's millions of stories that you just can't wait to get stuck into. I always say to people when I come back that you could spend your entire life there, walking the streets every day of that life and still not discover everything. 

You're not wrong about the eastern districts. While there's not necessarily masses out there for a tourist, for someone like me who's two main passions outside of sport are history and architecture, they are interesting places to just have a wander. The Soviet buildings, particularly the apartment blocks in places like Marzahn, Hellersdorf and Mahlsdorf are certainly fascinating to see. One thing I really noticed when I first starting venturing further out is the visible contrast in East and west styles. Get on the tram in Alexanderplatz and head out to these places and you see the style really visibly change from your ornate apartment blocks to concrete, grey brutalism. Never in another place on earth is the transition so stark and obvious. Gives me goosebumps thinking about it. 

Not too many places I've never been, just a lot of the outlying, residential areas. Never been north of Tegel Airport into Wittenau or Tegel itself. Never been past Spandau to Staaken and the like and never been really far south to places like Marienfelde, Rudow, Altglienicke and others near those. Like I say, been right down to the southwest around Steglitz-Zehlendorf, been right out east, been southeast to Kopenick and northwest to Spandau and that's essentially the extremities of my travel in that remarkable city.

Edited June 3, 2023 by The Hallucinating Goose