Football

[Gerrumonside ref]

25 minutes ago, tim2 said:

At times we did play like that but at the key moments when we led against Croatia and Italy we drew our heads into our shells. They should take a look at Ben Stokes' approach in the cricket. People will forgive losing if you give it a proper go. As Ben said "You run towards the danger, not away from it". I wonder where he got that from? 

Yes, Modric and Perisic took over the World Cup game and to be fair it was Modric at his very best in his career, while England’s midfield was best exemplified by Henderson who will give all he’s got, but is not a world class playmaker.

I agree that ‘going for it’ and dying on your sword is what we all want to see, but at points you just have to say the opposition are better or better organised as a team if not as individuals.

I do find that the old maxim that a football team often reflects the playing style (if there was one) of the manager rings true, although I feel Southgate has usually set up England to be solid with central midfield screening the centre halves before unleashing our pace on the counter attack.  This is great in principle providing there is space behind the opposition defence or the opposition aren’t using a high line to spring a constant offside trap.

I know people will criticise Southgate here for his lack of versatility tactically, but to be fair we just don’t have English qualified top level options tested at a high level (Champions League) to scheme around or keep a position ticking over in the centre of midfield right now.  Even Pep and Klopp rely on players from other countries for success in that area.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref

[RayCee]

2 hours ago, tim2 said:

At times we did play like that but at the key moments when we led against Croatia and Italy we drew our heads into our shells. They should take a look at Ben Stokes' approach in the cricket. People will forgive losing if you give it a proper go. As Ben said "You run towards the danger, not away from it". I wonder where he got that from? 

Unless it's a charging rhino.

[tim2]

5 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Unless it's a charging rhino.

I reckon Ged would have taken that on.

[RayCee]

2 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I know people will criticise Southgate here for his lack of versatility tactically, but to be fair we just don’t have English qualified top level options tested at a high level (Champions League) to scheme around or keep a position ticking over in the centre of midfield right now.  Even Pep and Klopp rely on players from other countries for success in that area.

That's a truism if ever I heard it. He sets up a team but if that isn't working...if that isn't working...if that isn't working...oh darn the game's over. He's like a rabbit caught in the headlights. He may be light on options in some areas, but he doesn't even try to change things until its too late. He leaves good players sitting on the bench throughout a match while the team is failing. It's like he believes Plan A will eventually produce the goods, given enough time. 

Pep and Jurgen are constantly monitoring the team's performance and every substitution is made when necessary and with a clear objective. They don't just let a game unfold, they are proactive, which is something that's essential is you want to win things. Under GS, they will beat bang average and poor sides with style. He has enough quality to do so and he motivates players. However, his tactical nous during a match is seemingly nonexistent. 

[HawkMan]

Women's Euros upcoming , and I'm going to give it a watch. I don't usually watch Women's footy but perhaps I've just fallen for the hype. Sky bigging it up and they don't even have the rights to it. England squad announced and Steph Houghton,  a name I do know, left out.

Apparently England games sold out and I'm interested in how the BBC present it and compare it to RLWC in November. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by HawkMan

[DavidM]

We should have beat Croatia and we should have beat Italy . We’ll be regretting that one in particular for years and years . Both those teams were beatable and we bombed both games with defensive negative approaches when we had the games in our hand . Southgate is primarily responsible for them , he got us so far and then his inate caution and lack of flexibility and willingness to go for it cost us a final and a tournament imo 

Edited June 15, 2022 by DavidM

[meast]

On 14/06/2022 at 21:41, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Worst England performance in history. Absolute s**t. No excuses. 

Too many games, tired etc.

Despite most of them benefitting from "squad rotations" or 'rests'.

England are the most overhyped team going, they are mind numbingly boring to watch too.

 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 hours ago, RayCee said:

That's a truism if ever I heard it. He sets up a team but if that isn't working...if that isn't working...if that isn't working...oh darn the game's over. He's like a rabbit caught in the headlights. He may be light on options in some areas, but he doesn't even try to change things until its too late. He leaves good players sitting on the bench throughout a match while the team is failing. It's like he believes Plan A will eventually produce the goods, given enough time. 

Pep and Jurgen are constantly monitoring the team's performance and every substitution is made when necessary and with a clear objective. They don't just let a game unfold, they are proactive, which is something that's essential is you want to win things. Under GS, they will beat bang average and poor sides with style. He has enough quality to do so and he motivates players. However, his tactical nous during a match is seemingly nonexistent. 

Comparing England to Liverpool and Manchester City and expecting the same outcome in 2022 makes no sense to me.

Pep and Klopp get much more time to work intensively with the same group of players week in, week out than Southgate does.

The highest level of club football in Europe is superior to international football now.

 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 hours ago, DavidM said:

We should have beat Croatia and we should have beat Italy . We’ll be regretting that one in particular for years and years . Both those teams were beatable and we bombed both games with defensive negative approaches when we had the games in our hand . Southgate is primarily responsible for them , he got us so far and then his inate caution and lack of flexibility and willingness to go for it cost us a final and a tournament imo 

Why should we have beat Croatia?

Honestly check out our line up that game.

 

[gingerjon]

6 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

The highest level of club football in Europe is superior to international football now.

 

 

I genuinely can't remember when this hasn't been the case.

[gingerjon]

It is necessary here to state once again some very simple facts. Southgate has the best win rate of any England manager to oversee 50 games. Southgate has taken England to two semi-finals in five years, after two semi-finals in the previous half a century. Southgate has lost two games out of 26 in the past two years. Southgate also developed England players via the age-group levels, helped to impose a style, made the team likable, showed faith in youth, brought golden moments and an avalanche of goals, and has always acted as a leader to be proud of. Does this still sound as if it is really about football?

But then this is England, where it is necessary to manage not just the team but also the vast freighted load of English insularity, English expectation. The founding identity of the England football team rests on one basic misconception, that the default option is for England to win. And that, if this is not happening, then there is a problem to solve, because something is fundamentally wrong with the universe.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2022/jun/15/england-gareth-southgate-nations-league-hungary-world-cup-2022

[DavidM]

8 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Why should we have beat Croatia?

Honestly check out our line up that game.

 

I didn’t say we should have to beat Croatia  .  I said we should have won that game from the position we put ourselves in to do so 

[Gerrumonside ref]

23 minutes ago, DavidM said:

I didn’t say we should have to beat Croatia  .  I said we should have won that game from the position we put ourselves in to do so 

Taking an early lead in a football match like the fifth minute is no guarantee of anything in my experience.  

I think you’ve got to recognise that Modric was a world class player in his prime who took over the game in the second half with a very good supporting cast in Perisic, Rakitic and Brozovic.

We’d gone into the World Cup with little expectation and overachieved thanks to team spirit and a somewhat fortuitous route through the tournament.

Losing was a bitter pill to swallow although I have strong doubts we would have troubled France in the final

[gingerjon]

Meanwhile, another England national team gets ready ...

 

[DavidM]

41 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Losing was a bitter pill to swallow although I have strong doubts we would have troubled France in the final

With you there 

[Gerrumonside ref]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Meanwhile, another England national team gets ready ...

 

How will we get on without Steph Houghton?

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

With you there 

The beauty of it is it is a game of different opinions.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Gerrumonside ref said:

How will we get on without Steph Houghton?

She's injured so it's moot.

I think we'll be fine. Anything other than a final appearance will be seen as a failure and probably should be read as such given home advantage.

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

The beauty of it is it is a game of different opinions.

Yep … and we’re all right !

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

She's injured so it's moot.

I think we'll be fine. Anything other than a final appearance will be seen as a failure and probably should be read as such given home advantage.

Which teams are the main dangers to England and who are the players to watch?

My knowledge is pretty ropey beyond the England team.

I lost interest a bit about the same time Liverpool seemed to stop caring too much about their team in it.

Now it’ll be easier to follow them next year on tv, I’ll be keeping an eye on it more.

 

[gingerjon]

28 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Which teams are the main dangers to England and who are the players to watch?

My knowledge is pretty ropey beyond the England team.

I lost interest a bit about the same time Liverpool seemed to stop caring too much about their team in it.

Now it’ll be easier to follow them next year on tv, I’ll be keeping an eye on it more.

 

You'll have to do your own research on individual players. Not my forte.

Team-wise: Spain look incredibly strong and are probably favourites, England always come unstuck against Germany but they are in a (slight) downturn right now, Netherlands are holders but probably not strong enough to win again without a bit of good fortune, France always seem to do well.

[Gerrumonside ref]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

You'll have to do your own research on individual players. Not my forte.

Team-wise: Spain look incredibly strong and are probably favourites, England always come unstuck against Germany but they are in a (slight) downturn right now, Netherlands are holders but probably not strong enough to win again without a bit of good fortune, France always seem to do well.

Sounds like it’ll be worth a watch.

[gingerjon]

40 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Sounds like it’ll be worth a watch.

With the caveat that international friendlies in both genders are deathly, it's England v Belgium on ITV4 at 8 tonight.

[Maximus Decimus]

So let me get this straight, Gareth Southgate was one penalty shoot out away from being the most successful England manager ever, yet we should get rid of him 1 year later because things are suddenly so dreadful?

I mean it's not like before Southgate we were utterly horrendous for around 15 years (hardly being successful for the 30 before), culminating in a humiliating defeat to a team like Iceland is it?

Yes we didn't play well in the Nations League games but it's far from panic stations. The 4-0 scoreline will get all the headlines but you get games like that once in a blue moon. Hungary scored 4 goals from 5 shots on target. I'm not saying we should've won but I do think it was a bit of a freak result that you get in sport.

[Maximus Decimus]

On 15/06/2022 at 20:14, DavidM said:

We should have beat Croatia and we should have beat Italy . We’ll be regretting that one in particular for years and years . Both those teams were beatable and we bombed both games with defensive negative approaches when we had the games in our hand . Southgate is primarily responsible for them , he got us so far and then his inate caution and lack of flexibility and willingness to go for it cost us a final and a tournament imo 

I'm sorry but this is a really bad take IMO. I just don't see how you can look at England's records in tournaments for the last 50 years, and suggest that but for Southgate we'd have been in a WC final and won the Euros.

Do people really have such short memories that they can't remember how low things got in 2016? That Iceland game was the culmination of the rot that had infested the England setup for years. I'll never forget that second half. It was tragic seeing talented club players shocked into an inability to play and be eliminated without so much as a whimper of a fight. It was the logical conclusion of all those tournament games where we couldn't string 2 passes together against decent teams, and scraped through with draws and narrow victories against teams like Algeria, Trinidad and Tobago and Slovenia.

Yet we'd have made a World Cup final 2 years later had it not been for Southgate. Sure....