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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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But raising the standard of the 2nd tier does nothing for player production and does nothing to strengthen the top tier, nor the England team. Those were the claims made by the poster I was responding to.

Fundamentally, we do not have enough money for the elite game. And yet our response is to further dilute the small resources we do have. It makes no sense.

keeping players in the game is important, especially SL trained players, a more intense second tier may provide better TV deal which will get better sponsors and snowball from there... One issue I have watching lower league stuff is the pace and the amount of errors..
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Just picking up on this. For what it's worth, I think there was a brief period when Schofield was a better player than Edwards, and a very fine 6. Not the world's best player, but a very good one. What Edwards had was a will to win and a drive which made the most of every ounce of his talent, over a very long period. He became the game's most decorated player for a reason, and deserves better than to be casually dismissed by someone who never once managed to lift the team he played with into one good enough to win a major prize.

I can and I will compare their medal hauls - when the disparity is this vast, it demands close examination.

Determination and drive are as much part of what makes a player great as speed and balance.

That he was the corner stone of every great Wigan side of the era, the most successful club side of any era, is reason to hail him, not dismiss him. We sold Hanley when his powers waned. We'd have done the same to Edwards.

Now, I know that Schofield is deranged, but entertaining, but in case anyone reads his column and believes he was a class above Edwards the facts provide a massive rebuke.

 

To be fair to Schofield he does not say he was a better player, but insinuates he was more creative than his rival, a fair assessment in my opinion, although not very modest I would agree.

 

In terms of determination, application and maximising his ability, Edwards came out on top, hands down, no argument from me. 

 

As regards trophies, some of the games greatest players won little in the way of silverware.  Lets remember Wigan during that period were full-time, had the best squad and paid out the highest salaries.  There would have been something drastically wrong if they had not cleaned up during that ten year period.

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Just picking up on this. For what it's worth, I think there was a brief period when Schofield was a better player than Edwards, and a very fine 6. Not the world's best player, but a very good one. What Edwards had was a will to win and a drive which made the most of every ounce of his talent, over a very long period. He became the game's most decorated player for a reason, and deserves better than to be casually dismissed by someone who never once managed to lift the team he played with into one good enough to win a major prize.

I can and I will compare their medal hauls - when the disparity is this vast, it demands close examination.

Determination and drive are as much part of what makes a player great as speed and balance.

That he was the corner stone of every great Wigan side of the era, the most successful club side of any era, is reason to hail him, not dismiss him. We sold Hanley when his powers waned. We'd have done the same to Edwards.

Now, I know that Schofield is deranged, but entertaining, but in case anyone reads his column and believes he was a class above Edwards the facts provide a massive rebuke.

There's a lot of merit in what you say about Shaun Edwards, whose will to win was incredible and he certainly made the most of his talent when he was with Wigan. I have enormous admiration for Shaun.

 

But there is also a lot in the argument that, no matter how good you are, you are only as good as your team, as Shaun showed when he went to Bradford and London, where he couldn't repeat his heroics with Wigan.

 

In terms of natural ability I think Garry was a better player, and I suspect he would have won lots of trophies too if he had been part of Wigan's full-time squad in an era of part-time players. But we'll never know.

 

Garry played alongside players like Shaun, Bobbie Goulding, Andy Gregory and so on for Great Britain, and is entitled to give his opinion, both on them and on every other aspect of Rugby League. You may not like his opinion, but I'm glad he is prepared to give it, and I wish more current and former players would be prepared to speak out like he does.

 

There seems to be a Victorian millowner mentality among some people in Rugby League, whereby players should be seen but not heard, and should know their place.

 

I'm afraid that Garry isn't like that, and he calls it as he sees it.

 

Sorry if that's a bit much for you to take.

Edited by Martyn Sadler
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Unfortunately the disparity in funding that the Championship clubs will receive from 2015 will ensure that the Championship becomes a very uneven competition, which won't do anyone any good. And the funding that you refer to is designed to paper over the cracks, rather than being used creatively.

Martyn, SL is an uneven competition with lots of clubs that can't hack it but you're happy to leave it as it is for another three years. There are well run clubs outside of SL such as Halifax, Leigh, Sheffield and Featherstone, all of whom believe they can make an impact given the chance. At least two of those have rich men willing to take their clubs to the next level.

Do you think it's right that one of those ambitious clubs will have to wait at least 12 years before their opportunity comes while the usual serial basket cases are allowed to cruise along, only having to avoid bottom place to stay where they are? Where's the excitement in that?

The fans aren't going to hang around in the Championship forever as the year on year decline in attendances clearly shows. Another form of licensing, which your proposal is, would kill the professional game, including SL.

Edited by Terry Mullaney

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There's a lot of merit in what you say about Shaun Edwards, whose will to win was incredible and he certainly made the most of his talent when he was with Wigan. I have enormous admiration for Shaun.

 

But there is also a lot in the argument that, no matter how good you are, you are only as good as your team, as Shaun showed when he went to Bradford and London, where he couldn't repeat his heroics with Wigan.

 

In terms of natural ability I think Garry was a better player, and I suspect he would have won lots of trophies too if he had been part of Wigan's full-time squad in an era of part-time players. But we'll never know.

 

Garry played alongside players like Shaun, Bobbie Goulding, Andy Gregory and so on for Great Britain, and is entitled to give his opinion, both on them and on every other aspect of Rugby League. You may not like his opinion, but I'm glad he is prepared to give it, and I wish more current and former players would be prepared to speak out like he does.

 

There seems to be a Victorian millowner mentality among some people in Rugby League, whereby players should be seen but not heard, and should know their place.

 

I'm afraid that Garry isn't like that, and he calls it as he sees it.

 

Sorry if that's a bit much for you to take.

To be fair to Edwards he was well past his best when he played for the bulls and the Broncos.

 

I really enjoy reading Garry schofield when he is talking about players and the way the game is played.

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Martyn, SL is an uneven competition with lots of clubs that can't hack it but you're happy to leave it as it is for another three years. There are well run clubs outside of SL such as Halifax, Leigh, Sheffield and Featherstone, all of whom believe they can make an impact given the chance. At least two of those have rich men willing to take their clubs to the next level.

Do you think it's right that one of those ambitious clubs will have to wait at least 12 years before their opportunity comes while the usual serial basket cases are allowed to cruise along, only having to avoid bottom place to stay where they are? Where's the excitement in that?

The fans aren't going to hang around in the Championship forever as the year on year decline in attendances clearly shows. Another form of licensing, which your proposal is, would kill the professional game, including SL.

Do you seriously believe that any of those clubs can be a force in super league? On what basis do you say that?

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And unfortunately you're not a realist, because you close your eyes to the damage that annual promotion and relegation does to clubs when they are having constantly to adjust from full-time to part-time status, and vice versa.

 

True, that aspect of P & R across the "great divide" of finance is a major problem. A mountain to climb for the club on the up and a precipice to fall over for the club on the way down.

 

The Million dollar question for those who favoured annual P & R was would it have been good for the game if Widnes who came bottom of SL 2012 but were being well managed and were steadily building, had been just thrown back out for Sheffield who sadly had built little by 2012?

 

I got no answer. I agree for promotion to be a success a club has to have some time. Pseudo licensing came in via Mr. Lewis when he protected Les Catalans from being relegated as long ago as 2006. They are a success now.

 

And so if your suggestion were adopted, it would retain the principle of licensing which IIRC Ralph Rimmer said in an article in RL & LE was to give promoted clubs time. It would not however retain the principle of picking the strongest 12 or 14 clubs.

 

It leaves me firstly with the "Sheffield" question. Here's a club that has been in the Championship Grand Final three times in a row and won it twice. On promotion to Superleague on the field - and this club is the most capable Championship club on the field as they have proven, how many years will they need to build their crowds, attract finance and produce their own professional players??

 

Secondly and conversely, if they fail and collapse after two years as London Broncos have done, do they spend the third year like the Broncos limping out as lame ducks, being used to give Leeds youngsters SL experience?

 

Your missing "standards" Martyn. Add those back in and as one poster says your play off idea is little different to what we have now?

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Do you seriously believe that any of those clubs can be a force in super league? On what basis do you say that?

Yes, Featherstone Rovers. On the basis that Mark Campbell, Feisal Nahaboo and the two other multi millionaire board members think they can. But perhaps you know better, maybe the aforementioned are just fools eh?

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A more intense second tier may provide better TV deal which will get better sponsors and snowball from there.

 

Second tier RL has no record of TV being interested in giving it any money at all, so it follows there will be no better sponsors and no snowballing.

 

Second tier RL has gone from attracting 2,405 fans to 1.,020 over 17 years. Take out Fev and crowds will end up averaging 900. Interest is bombing year after year after year.....

 

Last year 11 of the 14 clubs gave up their independence.

 

In nearly 50 years of following this fantastic sport I've only seen one snowball which was the SKY contract to create Superleague that rescued top division crowds from 5543 to a high of 9431 whilst gifting the game tens of £Millions of pounds.

 

It's everything IMVHO.

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Fundamentally, we do not have enough money for the elite game. And yet our response is to further dilute the small resources we do have. It makes no sense.

 

Agree 100% quote of the week for me!!

 

I don't often like analogies, but the Supermarket.v.Corner shop is the closest one to Rugby League I can appreciate.

 

If the game has a portfolio of both 23 corner shops and 14 Supermarkets, where is every precious pound best invested???

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Yes, Featherstone Rovers. On the basis that Mark Campbell, Feisal Nahaboo and the two other multi millionaire board members think they can. But perhaps you know better, maybe the aforementioned are just fools eh?

 

Terry, their joint worth can be £1,000 trillion zillion.......

 

They cannot spend any more than Ken Davey.

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Second tier RL has no record of TV being interested in giving it any money at all, so it follows there will be no better sponsors and no snowballing.

 

Second tier RL has gone from attracting 2,405 fans to 1.,020 over 17 years. Take out Fev and crowds will end up averaging 900. Interest is bombing year after year after year.....

 

Last year 11 of the 14 clubs gave up their independence.

 

In nearly 50 years of following this fantastic sport I've only seen one snowball which was the SKY contract to create Superleague that rescued top division crowds from 5543 to a high of 9431 whilst gifting the game tens of £Millions of pounds.

 

It's everything IMVHO.

 

theres no interest in the 2nd tier from tv (and sponsors,investors & and the drop in attendances) because of the lack on competition,ie lack of movement...clubs have stagnated...most clubs in the championship & champ1 won't have played for 6-7months by the time the new season starts...how the hell can clubs be expected to survive??

 

if we condense all the leagues down to 10 it will increase the competitiveness of all the leagues....and i believe that will increase attendances,sponsorship levels and encourage investment in lower league clubs cos of the potential to actually have ambition!

OLDHAM RLFC

the 8TH most successful team in british RL

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Terry, their joint worth can be £1,000 trillion zillion.......

They cannot spend any more than Ken Davey.

I'm well aware of that Parky but Im not sure they'll hang around for a minimum of another three years. Would you? Edited by Terry Mullaney

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I'm well aware of that Parky but Im not sure they'll hang around for a minimum of another three years. Would you?

 

I'm not sure they didn't back off when they could have touted for Wakefield or Bradford's place.

 

It seems they support the 3x8 option, if they are that rich they shouldn't be afraid of getting straight in with the big boys.

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Second tier RL has no record of TV being interested in giving it any money at all, so it follows there will be no better sponsors and no snowballing.

Second tier RL has gone from attracting 2,405 fans to 1.,020 over 17 years. Take out Fev and crowds will end up averaging 900. Interest is bombing year after year after year.....

Last year 11 of the 14 clubs gave up their independence.

In nearly 50 years of following this fantastic sport I've only seen one snowball which was the SKY contract to create Superleague that rescued top division crowds from 5543 to a high of 9431 whilst gifting the game tens of £Millions of pounds.

It's everything IMVHO.

football is now televised right down to the conference levels, Union has a TV deal for their second division. ....the driving force IMO is that they have pro teams at those levels, dont get me wrong I am not saying take money from SL to fund this, I would however like to see players who miss the cut pursue a pro career at a lower level, how this is funded is the big question. .....

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I recall widnes v leigh 2nd game of the season with both clubs dreaming of sl around the millenium - near 7000 crowd that was bigger than most premiership ru games that day - where did we go wrong

 

We accepted the SKY contract for Superleague and left the other clubs out in the cold.

 

We could have made a worse decision and rejected it and all be out in the cold.

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Yes, Featherstone Rovers. On the basis that Mark Campbell, Feisal Nahaboo and the two other multi millionaire board members think they can. But perhaps you know better, maybe the aforementioned are just fools eh?

No they aren't fools and I've never suggested they are

 

Where do you think your club will draw its support from? Your club has a long tradition of being poorly supported even during periods of on field success.

 

You can have all multi millionaires on your board you want, but there is only so much money they can put in.

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There's a lot of merit in what you say about Shaun Edwards, whose will to win was incredible and he certainly made the most of his talent when he was with Wigan. I have enormous admiration for Shaun.

But there is also a lot in the argument that, no matter how good you are, you are only as good as your team, as Shaun showed when he went to Bradford and London, where he couldn't repeat his heroics with Wigan.

In terms of natural ability I think Garry was a better player, and I suspect he would have won lots of trophies too if he had been part of Wigan's full-time squad in an era of part-time players. But we'll never know.

Garry played alongside players like Shaun, Bobbie Goulding, Andy Gregory and so on for Great Britain, and is entitled to give his opinion, both on them and on every other aspect of Rugby League. You may not like his opinion, but I'm glad he is prepared to give it, and I wish more current and former players would be prepared to speak out like he does.

There seems to be a Victorian millowner mentality among some people in Rugby League, whereby players should be seen but not heard, and should know their place.

I'm afraid that Garry isn't like that, and he calls it as he sees it.

Sorry if that's a bit much for you to take.

Given how much money I spend on products you sell, I'd have thought you'd be interested in how much "I can take". He's entitled to his opinion, he's entitled to slag off anyone and everyone. What puzzles me is his desperate need to do so. There are so many ways to make a point beyond - "listen kids while I tell you again how great I was and how rubbish everyone else was and is." It's sad and desperate. You can be a vocal critic of many things, and argue a case without doing so. I'd certainly read Hanley's views on how he was so much better because he genuinely was better, not some re write of history to suggest Schofield was in a different class from the likes of Edwards.

I hope you can handle my opinion.

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Agree 100% quote of the week for me!!

 

I don't often like analogies, but the Supermarket.v.Corner shop is the closest one to Rugby League I can appreciate.

 

If the game has a portfolio of both 23 corner shops and 14 Supermarkets, where is every precious pound best invested???

 

Just to take your analogy a bit further:

 

Supermarkets are now investing heavily in Corner Shops (Tesco - One Stop, Sainsbury's - Local etc) and pulling money out of new Supermarkets.

 

Maybe RL needs to do the same to grow?

 

Just a thought.

Edited by Ponterover
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theres no interest in the 2nd tier from tv (and sponsors,investors & and the drop in attendances) because of the lack on competition,ie lack of movement...clubs have stagnated...most clubs in the championship & champ1 won't have played for 6-7months by the time the new season starts...how the hell can clubs be expected to survive??

 

Actually, there's arguably more tv interest in the second tier than there was when we had promotion and relegation.

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I'm not sure they didn't back off when they could have touted for Wakefield or Bradford's place.

 

It seems they support the 3x8 option, if they are that rich they shouldn't be afraid of getting straight in with the big boys.

Now that would have been the actions of a fool. Why would they hurriedly want to join SL, totally unprepared with a below standard squad, when there's relegation for two clubs at the end of this season? Think about it Parky.

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